26 (edited by Grim Faust 2011-05-10 19:11:38)

Re: How explosion damage killed the close range mech

This explosion thing seems to me like it would be a nerf in a sense to not only blob combat, but close range combat. Not completely however as I'm sure there's ways to efficiently circumvent the damage and still be considered a close combat fighter. But still it begs the question, should you have to work harder to be a close-combatant to fight a feature that was meant to nerf blobbing?

It does however create an interesting situation for kamikaze pilots in logistic-oriented bots to rush an enemy to tackle them. All the while putting pressue on the opposition to get rid of them and possibly crippling their own allies in the explosion by killing the tacklers.

Re: How explosion damage killed the close range mech

Well, I suppose just not using short-range bots is an valid/easy way to negate the added complexity of the tactics also.

This is probably why blob mentality combat will never stop, because the majority of players will take the easiest solution.

The only way to reduce the one-trick aspect of group combat is to make some tactics more complex-but yield better results.

If no one chooses to use, or even try to find, solutions that have better results then the obvious easy path, then there no changes will ever stop blobing.

Not that explosion damage has a complex better path, maybe it doesn't and it needs to be changed, but it hasn't even been a week yet, certainly not enough time to explore the possible options.

Re: How explosion damage killed the close range mech

Loyalist wrote:

What about the bot dying when HP reaches zero but the explosion on an overload timer? 5,4,3,2,1 should be plenty of time for a zippy little light bot to flee.

that work? keep the same damage but put a 5 second kaboom delay, maybe 3 seconds...

That whould make the Explotion tactics in game useless, who cares about lightbots anyway... thay are fairly useless anyway. only light takle are okay to field.

Re: How explosion damage killed the close range mech

Alexadar wrote:

I'll be honest and without trolling:
Ive see a lot times squads with kains, what wiped all slow targets: industrials, pelistians, telodica mechs and this was kinda annoying. Yeah, this is game feture and im glad that guys had fun to ran this gangs, but as pelistian pilot i had thoughts that situation with closeRangeFastMovers must be solved by speed nerfing, or by DPS nerfing. Devs implemented nice feature with AOE what killed two (or even more) rabbits in one shot: much more antiblob mechanics and balancing closeRange combat, so close range guys will think twice before shoot. This is my point of view, and i'm ready for fair opposing arguments.


this was pretty much my thought; that they decided on the explosion damage range based on making it harder on blue as well as anti-blob.

i will say i like the interference idea too just changes the load out of the suicide sequer squad a little to include the deployables wink

30 (edited by Grim Faust 2011-05-10 19:41:17)

Re: How explosion damage killed the close range mech

How about instead of explosions being a deterrent, make an aura around any bot firing weapons. This aura could cause evironmental distortion that affects nearby bots tracking computers which lowers accuracy or optimal ranges on weapons or both. The more people you have blobbed, the less accurate your tracking systems are and less likely you'll hit something. It solves the blob mentality problem if it's compounded enough and also doesn't screw over close combat enemies trying to engage a blob. Then again, the disruption aura could also effect close combat pilots, albeit it wouldn't be as deadly to them.

Re: How explosion damage killed the close range mech

Mongolia Jones wrote:
Alexadar wrote:

According to Alexander info, closeCombat optimal range is from 80 to 100 m. Lets say its 90m.

Magnadart + Gauss optimal range is 50 meters -words-

With 10 lvl of extension, you have 56 meters. It can be increased with the range extenders up to 72 meters, you know it, but i suppose you want still use tunnings in your head for uber damage.
Thats why i see game more balanced now: wanna be uberDPS ganker? Sacrifice your vitality. Wanna live longer? Sacrifice your DPS. Thats logical i think.

32 (edited by CrepitusGoldenGoose 2011-05-10 19:46:04)

Re: How explosion damage killed the close range mech

Grim Faust wrote:

How about instead of explosions being a deterrent, make an aura around any bot firing weapons. This aura could cause evironmental distortion that affects nearby bots tracking computers which lowers accuracy or optimal ranges on weapons or both. The more people you have blobbed, the less accurate your tracking systems are and less likely you'll hit something. It solves the blob mentality problem if it's compounded enough and also doesn't screw over close combat enemies trying to engage a blob. Then again, the disruption aura could also effect close combat pilots, albeit it wouldn't be as deadly to them.


you just accurately described the interference system that's already in game, at least with regard to accuracy smile

33 (edited by Grim Faust 2011-05-10 19:52:24)

Re: How explosion damage killed the close range mech

>.>

<.<

No clue that existed. My account has been around since launch but I haven't played much yet. If a system like this is already in place, why are they also adding explosion damage to deter blobs? Seems like overkill to have both. If the accuracy debuff from interference isn't great enough to get people away from blobbing, why not just turn up the nerf a few notches instead of adding explosions.

I guess they probably have a good reason? I just don't think explosions is the way to do it considering it's effect spills over in to affecting different aspects of combat that don't seem to be a problem, like close combat.

Re: How explosion damage killed the close range mech

Grim Faust wrote:

>.>

<.<

No clue that existed. My account has been around since launch but I haven't played much yet. If a system like this is already in place, why are they also adding explosion damage to deter blobs? Seems like overkill to have both. If the accuracy debuff from interference isn't great enough to get people away from blobbing, why not just turn up the nerf a few notches instead of adding explosions.

I guess they probably have a good reason? I just don't think explosions is the way to do it considering it's effect spill over in to affecting different aspects of combat that don't seem to be a proble, like close combat.


because it's not very strong, i don't really have a problem with the explosions, i like that they effect npcs too (and all 3 of my accounts are blue, faction most effected). 

maybe i'm missing something but, iirc, the explosion size is based on the how much power is left in the accu when they die, seems like drainers/neuts just got more important to me *shrug*

otoh and i'm not attacking player's heavy mechs so maybe that's where the issues are idk

Re: How explosion damage killed the close range mech

Somthing Mongolia hinted at, which was sort of lost, is there are two types of combat that they are trying to balance, large-scale intrusion type and small-group roaming type of encounters.

Tactics are and strategies are of course different for those two encounters; although we still see the word 'blob' used to describe roaming encounters even though they are groups typically too small to be effected by interference.

If blobs occur in roams, then AOE needs to address that too if it is to be an anit-blob mechanism.

To take AOE damage as just that, AOE, and not anything meant to deter specific play styles, then its doing what it is supposed to do, which is create an area of damage around exploding objects. If I am remote repping something that is about to blow up from a close combat bot, should I too be immune or take reduced AOE damage because I too HAVE to be within 100m to provide this support?

If the arguement is that this 'killed' the short range dps, the same could be said for it 'killing' the ability to provide close up support.

Re: How explosion damage killed the close range mech

How about introducing AOE weapons that bots could wield, as opposed to making all bots inherent AOE time-bombs. Wielding AOE weapons would be an interesting tactic that could be anti-blob and benefit lop-sided encounter tactics. AOE weapons, be they damaging or EWar, would deter blobs and be effective on blobs only, so they are internally scalable to the degree of the situation. I believe Eve actually introduced something similar in the terms of bombs. While I don't think that necessarily needs to be replicated, something similar would be nice. Perhaps AOE ordinance, emp shrouds, etc.

The problem of blobs is not the blobs in themself, it's an enemy combatants lack of options to repell them. Given options, explosions on every bots destruction doesn't have to be the solution. Putting it in the hands of players creates more tactical situations and avoids the white-wash solution to just make everyone explode.

Re: How explosion damage killed the close range mech

your 2/2 so far smile

The next thing we expect is artillary, which will be AOE weapon modules for bots.

Re: How explosion damage killed the close range mech

The community has been asking for and waiting for AOE damage for awhile, this isn't something that is inherintly bad. This has only recently been implemented and players are still working out how it effects game play, this thread about close combat is probably just the first, but in general the feed back has been that exploding bots are a welcome addition. There isn't any reason to talk about removing it wholesale at this point.

Re: How explosion damage killed the close range mech

Topic name was changed? I missed something.
Close range mechs not died. Pelistians doing close range still well.

Re: How explosion damage killed the close range mech

2/2 eh? Great minds think alike? lol

Oh well...


I think exploding bots is a cool idea, but the reasoning behind what it's supposed to counter is what I think is in question. If it's meant to deter blob combat, well, they're doing it wrong. If they're just doing it as an added feature of combat, ok. It still however should be tweaked I think. Perhaps make it so not every bot is set to explode, or put a variance in the explosion size be it through the size of the bot or how much cap it has left or by how much ammo it carries. Possibly even have a warning, or countdown to explosion or the meltdown of the bot.

But just flat out making every bot explode kinda seems lacking and not really as exciting a feature as intended.

Re: How explosion damage killed the close range mech

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM

Re: How explosion damage killed the close range mech

Grim Faust wrote:

2/2 eh? Great minds think alike? lol

Oh well...


I think exploding bots is a cool idea, but the reasoning behind what it's supposed to counter is what I think is in question. If it's meant to deter blob combat, well, they're doing it wrong. If they're just doing it as an added feature of combat, ok. It still however should be tweaked I think. Perhaps make it so not every bot is set to explode, or put a variance in the explosion size be it through the size of the bot or how much cap it has left or by how much ammo it carries. Possibly even have a warning, or countdown to explosion or the meltdown of the bot.

But just flat out making every bot explode kinda seems lacking and not really as exciting a feature as intended.

Bolded text:
please first read the patchnotes about how explosion works, before going into the discussion. Neut the target empty and it wont explode as violently as with half accumulator.
explosion size is also dependent on robot size.

damage you recieve from explosion is also dependent on your own size (evasive mods hello!)

And noone forces you to go in with magnedarts against someone who has three medium armorplates fitted.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: How explosion damage killed the close range mech

Alexadar wrote:

With 10 lvl of extension, you have 56 meters. It can be increased with the range extenders up to 72 meters, you know it...

To use (waste) head slots to increase optimal range by 16 meters is pure pvp fail.



Alexadar wrote:

but i suppose you want still use tunnings in your head for uber damage.

Not only tunings but also -> demob, sensor amps, masking module.  Not everything we do revolves around dps you know.

"...we will take undefended gammas and stations."  -Cassius of STC

Re: How explosion damage killed the close range mech

Mongolia Jones wrote:
Alexadar wrote:

With 10 lvl of extension, you have 56 meters. It can be increased with the range extenders up to 72 meters, you know it...

To use (waste) head slots to increase optimal range by 16 meters is pure pvp fail.

Not if the extra 16 meters stops you from dying to your explosive prey.

Edit: Troll removed - DEV Calvin

Re: How explosion damage killed the close range mech

Arga wrote:

If I am remote repping something that is about to blow up from a close combat bot, should I too be immune or take reduced AOE damage because I too HAVE to be within 100m to provide this support?

This ^^.  The change not only effects blue combat bots but also also many other close-range bots like small remote reppers, small drainers, small energy transfers, etc.

Imagine that you are very low in health and you have a teammate piloting a bot with small remote reppers.  Now he has a choice, go in and try to rep you up (putting himself at great risk), or not repping you at all cuz you are "too risky" to help out.

Eventually that pilot will tire of the close range support for the no-risk longer range support.

So in the end, no one (or very few) people will use any module that has less than 150 meter optimal.  There will be less diversity.  Even less of a reason to use small bots than there is now.

"...we will take undefended gammas and stations."  -Cassius of STC

Re: How explosion damage killed the close range mech

Mongolia Jones wrote:
Arga wrote:

If I am remote repping something that is about to blow up from a close combat bot, should I too be immune or take reduced AOE damage because I too HAVE to be within 100m to provide this support?

This ^^.  The change not only effects blue combat bots but also also many other close-range bots like small remote reppers, small drainers, small energy transfers, etc.

Imagine that you are very low in health and you have a teammate piloting a bot with small remote reppers.  Now he has a choice, go in and try to rep you up (putting himself at great risk), or not repping you at all cuz you are "too risky" to help out.

Eventually that pilot will tire of the close range support for the no-risk longer range support.

So in the end, no one (or very few) people will use any module that has less than 150 meter optimal.  There will be less diversity.  Even less of a reason to use small bots than there is now.

Omg choices! NOT CHOICES! PLEASE ANYTHING BUT CHOICES!!!

Edit: Troll removed - DEV Calvin

47 (edited by Mongolia Jones 2011-05-11 00:20:54)

Re: How explosion damage killed the close range mech

Snowstyle wrote:

Not if the extra 16 meters stops you from dying to your explosive prey.

Heh, its better (and easier) to ALWAYS fit 400 meter guns and never worry about the enemy exploding in your face.

Plus it's very hard use those extra 16 meters and to be exactly 16 extra meters away when the enemy goes pops.  It's still pure pvp fail.

"...we will take undefended gammas and stations."  -Cassius of STC

Re: How explosion damage killed the close range mech

Mongolia Jones wrote:
Snowstyle wrote:

Not if the extra 16 meters stops you from dying to your explosive prey.

Heh, its better (and easier) to ALWAYS fit 400 meter guns and never worry about the enemy exploding in your face.

Plus it's very hard use those extra 16 meters and to be exactly 16 extra meters away when the enemy goes pops.  It's still pure pvp fail.

Sure it's easier to equip 400m guns and sacrifice your damage. And maybe it is hard to use those 16 meters. But I don't think that just because your overpowered roaming fit is harder to pull off without getting yourself killed now qualifies it as broken.

Edit: Troll removed - DEV Calvin

Re: How explosion damage killed the close range mech

Snowstyle wrote:

Sure it's easier to equip 400m guns and sacrifice your damage. And maybe it is hard to use those 16 meters. But I don't think that just because your overpowered roaming fit is harder to pull off without getting yourself killed now qualifies it as broken.

#1 My roaming fit is not "overpowered"
#2 If no one uses close range guns anymore... then I think it's broken

"...we will take undefended gammas and stations."  -Cassius of STC

Re: How explosion damage killed the close range mech

Mongolia Jones wrote:
Snowstyle wrote:

Sure it's easier to equip 400m guns and sacrifice your damage. And maybe it is hard to use those 16 meters. But I don't think that just because your overpowered roaming fit is harder to pull off without getting yourself killed now qualifies it as broken.

#1 My roaming fit is not "overpowered"
#2 If no one uses close range guns anymore... then I think it's broken

#1 Ofcourse not sweety smile

#2 a) Need numbers and shiny graphs.
     b) Logical fallacy

Edit: Troll removed - DEV Calvin