1 (edited by Arga 2011-04-25 03:53:06)

Topic: Transport Mission Rebalance and Redesign

When ever I am doing something in Perpetuum, I always measure the activity against transport missions. That is if I mine for an hour, I judge the volume of ore against how much I could have purchased with 1 hour of transports; same holds true for farming NPC's.

Of course, your milage is going to vary depending on tax rates, LWF frame setup, EP levels, and relations, but here are my numbers.

For (2) Sequars following each other with T4 frames @ 80 kph:
With 7 assignments, 0 tax, 1 sequar with Specialized Logistics 5

Alpha 'rounders' - level 1 transport missions starting and ending at ICS-Alpha
ICS Level 2/3 Rounder - 5xLevel 3/6x Level 2

Alpha Rounder / Hour = 3.19 Million NIC / hour + ~120k ammo (based on market)
Level 2/3 Round/Hout= 2.00 Million NIC / hour + ~ 280k ammo (based on market)

The reason I use (2) accounts here is to highlight the fact that the second account 'passively' contributes 50% of the income with minimal additional effort. The ratio of earning from level 1 compared to level 2/3 is still valid, although the totals would be lower, if only 1 account was used. The second 'account' is a combat alt with a minimal amount of EP spent in Indy to drive the sequar.

Where I am going with this is not a change to level 1 vs level 2/3 however.

Regardless of the transport missions, the comparison of the missions to every other activity is what I would like to adjust.

Currently all missions can be done repeatedly. This creates the conflict between getting 3.19M NIC/hour for "sure' vs. any other activity. This is compounded by the fact that the two accounts are dissimilar, which is the case with many players with multiple accounts; that is one is indy and one combat; and between mining, combat, and transport only the transport can use both accounts to actively generate income. In mining and farming, the second account is limited to transport duties.

Argueably transport missions do nothing but generate NIC, while mining and even combat missions inject resources and/or modules. NIC sources in general are not bad, but if they prevent the active player from contributing to the game in a meaningful manner than the method of the source needs to be adjusted.

To this end, I propose changing transport missions to a limited number of runs per 24 hour period and balance the payout accordingly.

While a sure source of NIC exists there will always be the conflict of doing that versus another activity. By limited the number of times the sure source can be done, players will have more incentive to perform variied activites during a play session. However these missions are a vital source of NIC to offset recurring sinks, so the maximum daily return on effort should be similar to the current play session earning potential.

There are (8) Level 1 missions per Main outpost, worth a base total of 168K each or 504K total. If these were limited to (2) per day, that would cap the earning potential at 1M NIC; significantly impacting the earning potential of a transporter to 1M NIC per day but reducing the time spent to only 1/2 hour. Limiting the Level 2/3 missions to (1) time per 24 hours would cap tranpsort TIME at 1 hour and an additional 473.5 K or 1.5 M NIC per day (some rounding).

One Hour of time leaves a second hour of game play to either PVP, mine, or NPC farm without an conflict, however reducing the earning potential to only 1.5 M NIC would be very a large nerf and imbalanced with other activities. To adjust for the imbalance, the total value of all combined missions would be raised to 2.0 M NIC. Somewhat against the results shown above, I would suggest that the level 1 missions get a greater increase than the level 2/3. This is because the newer players only have access to level 1 and therefore a smaller daily cap, while advanced players get the 'bonus' of additional missions. this also provided incentive for getting rep and accessing additional missions.

the same (1) time limit would apply to level 4 missions, with an appropriate adjustment upwards to the reward; both NIC and rep.

The 'rep' would also be raised to the same level that would normally be achieved with 2 hours of the same mission running. Players can continue to earn rep by sharing the assignment within a squad, but no additional NIC would be awarded to the player after completing their max runs for that day.

The net result should be a 'less grindy' play experience for raising reputation as well as encouraging players to spend more EP in mission skills to increase daily totals (instead of just running them more often). It will also move players into doing 'varied' missions, such as geo scans, and free up time to explore other NIC or resource earning options without conflict.

--- I have not done enough combat or other missions to comment if the same principal should be applied there, but in general, 'repeatable' missions should be limited either daily or even weekly. A weekly limit would alieve the requirement many players would feel to log in daily, and allow players that have more time on the weekends to do them all at that time, or to 'knock them out' on the reset day and leave the entire week open for other activity.

TLDR;

Revise the unlimited transport missions to daily or weekly limits and increase the payouts and rep earned per mission. This eliminates the grinding aspect of missions and opens time opportunities for players to explore other earning activites or PVP. The same principal should be evaluated in regards to all types of missions.

This would not conflict with the new missions proposed by Dev Zoom with bonus's for faster completion, it would acutally compliment and encourage this since it would be one way to increase your daily or weekly max NIC potential.

Re: Transport Mission Rebalance and Redesign

i disagree with any change of the current transport missions except removing 4 of the alpha2aplha terminal missions per terminal, but still with the ability to unlock all lvl2 transport missions of one factions by only doing transports.

transport missions are the only ones that yield about the right ammount of reward.
they are the only ones that you can chain up and that you can finish more then 2 at the same target location.

and whats wrong about earning 1M/hour for someone who has specialized in transports?
i mean, those extensions are not for free, and you actually can savely grind the same ammount with a laser assault bot in a lvl2 hellraiser spawn, without mission.
Sure, it needs higher extensions to do that, but then, you can do other things too with that toon - not only running circles.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

3 (edited by Caithleen 2011-04-25 13:05:46)

Re: Transport Mission Rebalance and Redesign

Good that you brought the topic up AGAIN (because nothing happens, or seems to slow, yeah yeah plasma ...).

But your idea to balance things out is wrong.

Whats with the transport player who likes this way of play ?

Yeah its possible that there people that like it, as there are also people who like mining.

The way is not to nerf the transports but to get the other activities up. We saw an increase for the fighters with the plasma.

Its good to have more NIC sources because often you hear people quit because its such a damn WORK to get into a decent bot for pvp afer you lost it.

The MK2 owners usually only pose with their bots because they are too expensive to risk.

Seen one or the other ragequits due to the work you have to put into things here. Either you want active PVP, then its not okay that a player needs to work several evenings for one pvp evening, or you need to make it more like blobbing to lower risk. Id hate to see the later.

We had a discussion on german chat. TLDR Version was : "Humm ... drive 6 hours transport missions, fit a bot, go pvp until it explodes or simply start up mw2 and have instant fun ?".

Of course in a game like this losses have to hurt. But they hurt way too much.

And it would be so easy to fix this. There are so many screws that can be turned instantly if things settle out a wrong way. But currently they all are turned into recession position atm.

This has to be fixed fast. Forget about the new Islands. We dont need them to further spread out people and make it even more risky to do things on beta.

The foundation of the game, the player market is what has to be focussed on. The newbie experience. If that works, you can put expansions out.

The miners are still the bottom of the NIC chain. They should be the foundation of the whole market but as i allready posted in the other thread :

We drive a 40m fitted Riveler (and risk it on beta) to mine ore worth 1 million/hour with 100K EP spent into that.

Then the riveler goes boom and we can work F*CK*NG FORTY HOURS to get back to 0.

To be honest. Miners should do T1 transports and buy ore from the market as long as it behaves this way.

4 (edited by Ral 2011-04-25 17:59:05)

Re: Transport Mission Rebalance and Redesign

Arga wrote:

When ever I am doing something in Perpetuum, I always measure the activity against transport missions.

So...you should stop playing Perpetuum and get a part-time job.

Re: Transport Mission Rebalance and Redesign

Annihilator wrote:

i disagree with any change of the current transport missions except removing 4 of the alpha2aplha terminal missions per terminal, but still with the ability to unlock all lvl2 transport missions of one factions by only doing transports.

transport missions are the only ones that yield about the right ammount of reward.
they are the only ones that you can chain up and that you can finish more then 2 at the same target location.

and whats wrong about earning 1M/hour for someone who has specialized in transports?
i mean, those extensions are not for free, and you actually can savely grind the same ammount with a laser assault bot in a lvl2 hellraiser spawn, without mission.
Sure, it needs higher extensions to do that, but then, you can do other things too with that toon - not only running circles.

There's nothing wrong with earning 1M/hour, infact my suggestion would raise it to 2M/hour. The only difference being that you can't run them for 10 hours a day.

Earn more, in less time, and then do something else with your game time. Put EP into extensions and raise it to 2M+x/hour, and earn even more in the same amount of time.

The limits I proposed are just for discussion. The psychology is to change motivation and enhance game diversity.

Players that play to win, when presented with the option of X NIC or X+1 NIC, they'll do the X+1, anything less is wasting NIC.

This change, made in conjunction with adding player contracts for transports, would imo make the game more enjoyable all around.

Re: Transport Mission Rebalance and Redesign

Ral wrote:
Arga wrote:

When ever I am doing something in Perpetuum, I always measure the activity against transport missions.

So...you should stop playing Perpetuum and get a part-time job.

How did you manage to relate the concept of earning NIC with earning irl money?

Re: Transport Mission Rebalance and Redesign

Arga wrote:
Ral wrote:
Arga wrote:

When ever I am doing something in Perpetuum, I always measure the activity against transport missions.

So...you should stop playing Perpetuum and get a part-time job.

How did you manage to relate the concept of earning NIC with earning irl money?

If you are only measuring an activity in game against how much money you're making in game, then take your time and energy and make real money with it.

Perpetuum is a game, you play for fun, relaxation, etc.  If the ONLY thing you are doing is work for fake money, wouldn't it make sense to do the same work for real money?  Surely you'd get more satisfaction out of that.

Basically what I'm saying is people do transport missions at first to get going, and then move on to other things.  You don't make more money doing transport missions than efficiently mining Epriton, or producing, or hunting NPCs.  These things take more skill and extensions and investment, so they are not for new players, but no one is sitting around still doing transport missions after two months because it's the best way to make money or to have fun.

None of your changes are really bad necessarily, but I don't think the core problem really exists.  And I think the first sentence of your post, which I quoted, illustrates the difference between your thinking and most players'.

Re: Transport Mission Rebalance and Redesign

There's playing for 'fun' and then there's playing for a sense of accomplishment or satisfaction; any of those three are valid reason to play.

Players do still run transport missions after 2 months. These are not beta corp players, they are alpha small corp and solo players. Transport missions are a low-risk guarnteed return on time invested; peek into carebear mentality, we are 'risk adverse'.

I don't really know the numbers, so I can't say that your assertion of 'most' is right or wrong, but there are a non-zero number of players that wholly depend on transport missions.

Mining isn't fun, but it can be satisfying, but why mine 10 hours to get 60 Million titan ore, when I can just buy it for 24 M NIC, which I can earn in 8 hours of transport missions.

With this change, I can earn 2 M NIC and then go mining knowing I'm using my time as effectively as possible.

Now, if there was something I considered 'fun' or satisfying, other then transport or mining, then I would do that even if the return was lower. But since I'm faced with 'lesser of evils' I figure I should get the most of my time.

You sort of just skipped to the final conclusion, which is why play this game at all, which means I must be getting some satisfaction from playing the game as it is, but I feel this sort of change would allow me more satisfaction. "fun" is relative, the more complex a game is the less it becomes about 'fun' and the more it is about the challenge. Chess vs a pickup volleyball game.

Put another way, if there was 1,000,000 dollar bills on a table most people would spend the effort to pickup all the bills. They wouldn't just grab 500,000 and leave the rest; the literal interpretation of leaving money on the table. Now, put out two tables, and tell this person they can only chose 1, and the second table has 500,000 in 20's. Again most people would choose to collect all 1M because it is more. But, tell them they only have 30 minutes to collect the money, and more people will go for the $20 table.

Re: Transport Mission Rebalance and Redesign

Basically, the reason I'm posting this again is so we can all give dev's input on the change. If we don't, we'll end up with something that IS a nerf.

I would be OK if they left the transport missions just as they are, but I don't think they will, so if they must change then this is the direction I would like to see them go.

The devs also mentioned they are looking at adding timed bonuses and such. I wouldn't mind seeing how those effect transport missions before anything is changed either.

Re: Transport Mission Rebalance and Redesign

Why do you persist in wanting to make others play your way? Play the game and leave others to their way. If you don't like transport assigns, don't do them!
Stop trying to have them nerfed because you want everyone to play your way.

As for giving devs "input" forget it, they already know what they are doing and nothing you say will change it. You could've made 3.2 Million NIC in the time you wasted posting walls of text here.

11

Re: Transport Mission Rebalance and Redesign

Well, arguing the satisfying or fun aspect of transport missions is a moot point I guess.  It seems *so* close to work to me that I would rather do actual work.  If you want a completely risk-free way to enjoy the game and mining or playing the market isn't it, then I don't have anything to contribute that hasn't been already said.

All my ideas revolve around getting people on beta and adding risk to an otherwise mind-numbing activity.  In my mind (and many others I think), alpha is like training grounds, and beta is where the game takes place.  But I guess if someone wants to never leave alpha, stuff like this should remain there for them.

Re: Transport Mission Rebalance and Redesign

If you don't like my posts, don't read them, and certainly don't make me waste time by reading your wasted response.

See how unhelpful just telling someone not to do something is. And you make my exact point, which is that doing anything other than transport missions is 'wasting' time.

Change does not mean nerf. From your wall-o-text comment I'll assume you didn't even read the post, but if you had, you would have read that the total NIC/hour actually goes up. Where I come from getting more is not a nerf, its a buff. The only thing this effects is the amount of time players spend on transport missions.

Maybe I'm totally wrong here, and its just me, but it seems like a good idea to spend LESS time and earn MORE. The only reasonable objection is if there's nothing else to do with that extra game play time.

Re: Transport Mission Rebalance and Redesign

Ral

Encouraging players to move to beta is what started the carebear exodus in the first place. Some players just don't equate adding risk to making something funner. That doesn't mean cb's can't or won't go out and PVP, but they prefer to do it on their own terms; the term is consentual PVP.

But that is moving off topic since transport missions are by their nature PVE until you get to level 4.

Alpha players are needed to round out the Perpetuum world, there is no room on beta for solo or small corps to live. Providing means for them to arm up and visit beta is the way to encourage them to get out there, and this would give them more time to do it.

Re: Transport Mission Rebalance and Redesign

additonal to my previous post -
i wouldn't mind if they turn one of two of the alpha terminal missions into a 100U transport.

IF someone wants to dedicate his character to earn the maximum possible ammount of NIC by doing all possible alpha-transport missions - then it woul be only logical that he has to spend a same minimum ammount of EP to do so, as someone else who specialized in eg. mining.

atm you need as industrial toon:
lvl4 industrial robot control (2394 ep)
lvl4 basic robotics (3645 ep)
lvl10 navigation (18225 ep)
lvl3 parallel assignments (1638 ep)
(overall ep to spend: 25902 -> thats a trail account after three days)
optional:
lvl5 headhunter bonus (5550 ep)
lvl5 logistics (6937 ep)
lvl5 diplomatics (5460 ep)
(another 17947 ep -> 12 days)
lvl7 parallel assignments (+11466 ep -> 8 days)

25 days for your almost perfect transport runner.
difference if you do that with a full logistic agent: 4 days less
difference if you do that with a full combat agent: 3.5 days less

im missing the part where you need to spec the next bigger transporter to really do the maximum.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Transport Mission Rebalance and Redesign

Indy Bot 8 is ~45,000 EP for indy spec. and ~55,000 EP for military spec.

Having missions for dedicated transporters would be a great improvement too, something Lithus sized at 3x50 with 1 drop at each remote outpost and completion at the end of the 'round'.

I'd love a little extra incentive to buy a lithus, as it is now there's really no reason to do so.

It would also be nice to see the cross over from spending EP on non-diplomacy skills (such as Indy bot) have a greater impact on the transport earning potential.

Re: Transport Mission Rebalance and Redesign

Ral wrote:
Arga wrote:

When ever I am doing something in Perpetuum, I always measure the activity against transport missions.

So...you should stop playing Perpetuum and get a part-time job.


Exactly go be a truck driver! sounds like you'd like it!

Re: Transport Mission Rebalance and Redesign

For some reason, that reminds me of trailer park boys... smile

Re: Transport Mission Rebalance and Redesign

I agree a change needs to be made.  Leave the Transport missions alone IMO and make all the other missions worth while and more interesting.  We need more content as it it.

Re: Transport Mission Rebalance and Redesign

Uncle Mo wrote:

I agree a change needs to be made.  Leave the Transport missions alone IMO and make all the other missions worth while and more interesting.  We need more content as it it.


+1

I'm afraid a transport nerf won't come with a.) any better alternatives b.) any EP refund for the thousands it takes to make it worthwhile.

Population graphs

<GM Synapse> please don't abuse our fresh players before blowing them up. And for god sakes, don't do that after it!

Re: Transport Mission Rebalance and Redesign

Toku wrote:

Why do you persist in wanting to make others play your way? Play the game and leave others to their way. If you don't like transport assigns, don't do them!
Stop trying to have them nerfed because you want everyone to play your way.

As for giving devs "input" forget it, they already know what they are doing and nothing you say will change it. You could've made 3.2 Million NIC in the time you wasted posting walls of text here.

+1 smile

Re: Transport Mission Rebalance and Redesign

thanks for the bump!

22 (edited by Lucius Marcellus 2011-05-04 21:27:25)

Re: Transport Mission Rebalance and Redesign

The activities in this game really needs balance, be that a boost to non-transport activities or a nerf to transport mission.

Of course it's easy to say that people should do what they enjoy, but if this activity happen to pay only 30-50% of what transports pay, it can be really quite demotivating.

Nonetheless, I really like the idea of lithus-only missions.

And regarding putting on a limit per day, I have nothing personal against it, but I feel it's more of a short-term fix to something that needs a serious change.

Re: Transport Mission Rebalance and Redesign

Some hints in the notes about some future assignments, we can hope there are lithus ones smile

Re: Transport Mission Rebalance and Redesign

/quit

Re: Transport Mission Rebalance and Redesign

Loquitious wrote:

/quit

This post is very in-ter-esting