1 (edited by JeanMi Requile 2011-04-26 08:44:03)

Topic: Travel and travelling time. A review.

We all thought of it “Snap! Getting around sure is tedious”

Compilation thread on the topic of traveling, autopilot , pathfinding etc

Traveling time is a hot subject as can be seen by the number of threads relating directly or indirectly on the topic. Herein as an introduction I’ve created a sort of review on this issue.

In this Q&A session (http://forumsbetaarchive.perpetuum-onli … qa-results) the DEVs mentioned there wasn’t anything coming our way to relieve us of the mind numbing traveling in the short term. Despite that this is in the interest of the game itself since people dropping out because they don’t want to do all the traveling is bad for business.

We’ve people grinding teeth on the forum about this subject and it’s a safe bet that for every poster than complains about travel time, there are many more who think the same but don’t bother voicing their opinion.

Here are some of those who took the time to say they’re unsatisfied with travel instead of just quitting in silence.
http://forums.perpetuum-online.com/topi … e-terrain/
http://forums.perpetuum-online.com/topi … ral-speed/
Here are the impressions of a new player who put the travelling issue as number 1.
http://forums.perpetuum-online.com/topi … ew-player/


Here are some of the ideas that have been posted  in the forums on the issue of traveling:
This one is about the implementation of active speed boost module.
http://forums.perpetuum-online.com/topi … st-module/
Here is a thread on waypoints.
http://forums.perpetuum-online.com/topi … el-paths/”
Here are some ideas in the feature request section posted by myself.
http://forums.perpetuum-online.com/topi … -solution/
http://forums.perpetuum-online.com/topi … -solution/
http://forums.perpetuum-online.com/topi … ravelling/

Interestingly as can be seen by this poll at the moment this thread was written most people play Nuimquol. Seeing as they’re the fastest faction, we could see in this phenomena a symptom of the travel plague.
http://forums.perpetuum-online.com/topi … lising-in/

Post here your solutions to making traveling less boring without upsetting the entire context of the game. Post your opinion on the subject of traveling. Is it fine as is or does it need improvement. Finally fill in the little poll.

http://snappoll.com/poll/363268.php

Edit: added links to travel related topics (2011/4/11).
Edit: added a link to travel related topic (2011/4/26).

I want an autopilot so I can chat while I travel. http://forums.perpetuum-online.com/topi … -a-review/ THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU

Re: Travel and travelling time. A review.

There are several approaches in my opinion which could address this issue. All have advantages and disadvantages which can be discussed.

Possibility one.
Allow players to “teleport” between active robots in different locations. There’s the balancing issue which needs to be considered. How many active robots could one have? Wouldn’t this overly facilitate “call to arms” when defending or attacking Beta etc… This option would decrease the traveling time between your Alpha carebearing cash grinding bot and your combat pvp bot on Beta, but not so much the travel time in missions. To reduce the actual travel time between a station and a mission zone we could imagine the implementation of structures (player or built or not) which act like miniature stations. Which’s sole purpose is to allow you to dock up your robot so you can teleport to it later. Let’s call these structures “garages”. These could be spread out around the map or built by players closer to mission zones.
So a typical mission would run as follows.
A Pick up mission in station (as we do now).
B Teleport to garage with combat robot that is closer to mission zone than the station.
C Do mission and return to garage
D Teleport to station to turn in the mission.
Unfortunately this system doesn’t help at all though to perform “destroy and recover” mission types. Garages if player built would have to be destructible by npcs to prevent them from being built too close to spawns.

Possibility two.
Waypoints as mentioned in this thread.
http://forums.perpetuum-online.com/topi … el-paths/”
We place waypoints as we travel along, create a pathway with the waypoints. Select the pathway way we want and click go! Off course what to do with all the plants? Honestly would it bear dire consequences if all plants were ethereal? Though this would help gold farmers as mentioned. To resolves this problem, this mechanism could be functional only in Beta, but then again who really travels afk in a full pvp zone?

Possibilty three.
Let us build highways. Burn the ground, bring down the hills, fill up the valleys and pour the tar! Traveling from a common place to another becomes as simple as putting your bot in the right direction and hitting move lock. What will happen though in the longer term is that we’ll have terraformed all the islands into plant less poll tables.

Possibility four.
Speed bonus for pvp flagging.

I want an autopilot so I can chat while I travel. http://forums.perpetuum-online.com/topi … -a-review/ THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU

Re: Travel and travelling time. A review.

You missed one which also broached the topic here....
Jumpjets.

I posted a summary there so will not repeat here.

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Re: Travel and travelling time. A review.

Travel time is also danger time.

If you reduce travel time you reduce risk and exposure.

Yes it is both frustrating and boring when you are just trying to get from point a to point b and your either harrassed by NPC or killed by PVP, but that is the game, and those people had a long boring wait for you to pass by too.

If you remove or reduce traveling than you have significantly changed the game.

Any suggestions on speed increase or teleporting have to be offset by increased exposure or risk elsewhere.

If your only able to be 'contacted' for a short time, than the area that you can be contacted in must be small. What you end up with than is lots of funnel points, like teleports, and traveling becomes stupid dangerous.

Small boosts to speed, while not as bad as teleports, would need something like a 'flare' that put you on everyone's radar for a few seconds. You relieve boredom but increase risk your risk of getting intercepted.

Re: Travel and travelling time. A review.

I too think this travelling is cumbersome. I realize people don't like eve comparisons, but why not? In eve with autopilot I could idly go from point a to point b, and if I went afk or did not pay attention the risk was still on me taht I might be targeted or did not fly as efficiently as when I do every command in realtime. So there were incentives to do things actively, but for the times I felt like exploring there was the possibility of roaming a vast universe passively, checking in once in a while and assuming some risk for my laziness. I liked this way.

I understand that in pvp there is a need for ground combat/cover/obstacles

but for the roaming drifting player this tedious travel and constant bumping into things is getting tedious and annoying!

faster speeds, waypoints, a 'vehicle mode' where you have decreased armor or cannot be offensive while travelling fast.... i am all for these proposals. something to get me to want to roam about and explore more, where I feel I cover vast ground instead of feeling irritated that I keep bumping into crap!

Re: Travel and travelling time. A review.

Improving this area probably could be the single most pareto-optimal improvement DEVs could make to Perpetuum because of the very very large number of people annoyed by this and very very frequent amount they experience this problem.

Those annoyed by travel and travelling time should post in this thread to show support.  I am not sure DEVs are sufficiently aware of just how strongly so many people are affected by this issue as I have encountered so very many who complain about this but have not posted on forums.

Re: Travel and travelling time. A review.

we could use carrier hoverbots - flying fast enough, able to carry one or more bots. theyr flying ability can be based on accumulator usage. they can be armed with 1-2 guns or even unarmed, and some anti-aircraft guns can be added to deal with them. they can de unable to use teleports totally, or unable to use them while carrying someone, or something else like that - will be easy to implement.

such thing can solve long travel problem and even add some more tactics to pvp.

Have a productive day, Runner

Re: Travel and travelling time. A review.

speed makes the world smaller.

to give us any gamemechanic that makes traveling faster, they have to increase the gameworlds dimensions a good bit.

In space, its easy - you just expand the emptyness a bit more, fill it with random asteroids or planetary systems.
On a planetary based game - you have to fill every inch with terrain, structures, tree's and stuff - that takes much more work and servermemory and is extremely hard to balance.

btw, we have ingame mechanic to reduce long travel distances by a good bit - but its nerfed down to unusable for anything because the pvp nerds think its the worst thing to be able to flee from them without engaging combat - its called mobile teleport beacon.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Travel and travelling time. A review.

It would also be interesting to know under what circumstances the travel is frustrating to players.

I run a lot of transport missions, x Time = x NIC. Yes, it is boring and frustrating, but that is what I'm getting paid for. If it was faster and easier, the reward would be lower.

Here are the other travel circumstance;

1) Moving supplies from/to alpha/beta
2) Moving an insured bot between islands
3) Driving to/from a remote farm point
4) Driving to/from a remote mining spot
5) Mission runs
6) PVP roaming
7) Moving Squads before/during Intrusions

Any change to transportation has to take into account how it effects each of those uses.

Re: Travel and travelling time. A review.

actually, for me - combat and mining missions - the travel time makes 2/3 of the whole mission time, but is the least paid part of it.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Travel and travelling time. A review.

Arga wrote:

Travel time is also danger time.

If you reduce travel time you reduce risk and exposure.

...snip!

Good point in favor of a system with long traveling times.

Your flare idea isn’t bad. We could also have the mining/combat time of the mission increased to offset a travel time decrease.

I want an autopilot so I can chat while I travel. http://forums.perpetuum-online.com/topi … -a-review/ THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU

Re: Travel and travelling time. A review.

Annihilator wrote:

actually, for me - combat and mining missions - the travel time makes 2/3 of the whole mission time, but is the least paid part of it.

You’re not the only one to have noticed this aberration. The travel time for a combat/mining mission is the same and often longer than the travel time of transport missions.

With transport missions once you’re done with the long haul, you get paid. In combat/mining missions, once you’re done with the long haul, you only get to start harvesting/fighting.

In my opinion a simple solution that wouldn’t completely offset the balance of the game would be to increase the amount of minerals that need to be harvested / robots that need be killed / sites that need be scanned. Currently we have missions that send you from the center of the map to the beach to kill just 5 robots.

I want an autopilot so I can chat while I travel. http://forums.perpetuum-online.com/topi … -a-review/ THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU

Re: Travel and travelling time. A review.

Friedrich Nietzsche wrote:

I too think this travelling is cumbersome. I realize people don't like eve comparisons, but why not? In eve with autopilot ...snip!

We Perpetuum lovers like to pretend this game is completely different and in no way comparable to Eve, but I’ll pick up on what you said and do so anyways.

In Eve online even manual piloting can be done simply by pointing and clicking at entities in the landmarks window (or the overview as CCP calls it). While traveling, you can keep busy by sifting through any menu open in almost full screen. All you need, is to keep that margin of a landmark (overview) menu accessible.

Can you get around P.O. simply by using the landmark window? Only exceptionally is the answer. Merely getting around requires almost as much attention as combat itself (without being nearly as stimulating off course).

I want an autopilot so I can chat while I travel. http://forums.perpetuum-online.com/topi … -a-review/ THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU

Re: Travel and travelling time. A review.

Dont do transport missions all the time, mix it up maybe a bit so you dont get bored after grinding the same mission routes for several hours?

I did transport missions one evening, if i do them again now i might do 2 or 3 round trips then go and do something else instead.

imho there isnt anything wrong with travel in this game apart from my inability to navigate around terrain lol

Re: Travel and travelling time. A review.

I don't have an issue with travelling time. I think this needs to be in so that there is supply and demand created in different parts of the world for different materials. Also the point made about exposure creating windows of danger is a good one.

I would like to see transport mission rewards adjusted so that level 1s become considerably less lucrative than level 2s and 3s, or perhaps limiting the amount of times you can repeat them.

"...playing a game is the voluntary attempt to overcome unnecessary obstacles."
Bernard Suits, 1978

Re: Travel and travelling time. A review.

I would give a +1 to capping the number of times per day any mission can be run, although I do other things in the game, it seems like I'm always balancing time vs. NIC based on these missions. If they could only be done 3 times a day, then that would just eliminate that inner struggle.


Since the things I _can_ make are not selling (really nothing is, but it will eventually so the items just go into storage for later, and I can't make T3-4 items yet), transport missions are funding my raw material purchases as well as kernel research.

If I can only make x NIC per day on transports, than that will limit the amount of NIC I can put back into the market. I doubt that I am the only player doing this with the transport income, although other players may be buying mechs or modules instead of materials, so capping missions could actually kill the economy unless there is a drastic change in the market.

Bounty collections may help some combat players, but again the industrial ones running transport missions will still not benefit. Combat pilots will not be losing more bots or modules, at most the market for ammo may go up slightly. The demand for T3-4 items could increase as pilots have more NIC to upgrade, but most small industry players can't afford the kernels to learn the prototypes for t3-4 (as Alex pointed out, it takes literally 1000's of kernels, and is just something small corps can't accomplish at this time).

TL;DR - I like the idea of capping, but at this time transport mission NIC sources are the economy, and until the market recovers any change in that income flow is going to have a serious impact on the solo and small corp player.

Re: Travel and travelling time. A review.

The traveling time is fine, I like the feeling of getting jumped and killed, so that's why we have intel channels. feels..................real. Danger Danger

Inner Ring Excavations
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Re: Travel and travelling time. A review.

Arga wrote:

It would also be interesting to know under what circumstances the travel is frustrating to players.

I run a lot of transport missions, x Time = x NIC. Yes, it is boring and frustrating, but that is what I'm getting paid for. If it was faster and easier, the reward would be lower.

Here are the other travel circumstance;

1) Moving supplies from/to alpha/beta
2) Moving an insured bot between islands
3) Driving to/from a remote farm point
4) Driving to/from a remote mining spot
5) Mission runs
6) PVP roaming
7) Moving Squads before/during Intrusions

Any change to transportation has to take into account how it effects each of those uses.

I agree with your (and others') general point that travel is integral to game play in PO, and messing with it risks changing important game dynamics, but there are elements of travel that make zero sense, are frustrating (and contribute to players leaving) and don't contribute to game play at all.

For example:

1) Why does/do the alpha outpost terminals require a 3-4k meter run to get to?  The drones pose no challenge to (and can barely scratch) a three day old player in an arkhe 2.  They just eat time for no good purpose.  Why should it take longer to go from ICS alpha -> Galoli Belli tele -> Radholme west tele -> Radholme outpost than it takes to go overland from ICS alpha to Radholme outpost

2) Why are outpost entrance points offset inside the entry tunnels (why have entry tunnels at all)?  Why, even if you can line up to an entry tunnel and hit auto run, do you not go straight in, but get directed and then hung to one side or the other, if you don't first get blocked by aa stanchion that happens to be directly in fron of the entry tunnel.  This is just bad design.

3) Why are the causeways between the alpha terminals and alpha island teles not lined up?  Sheeesh! Can't even hit autorun for the 1k meters and look away without getting hung up on the causeway edges.

I could go on, but hopefully you get the point.  There are many aspects of travel that contribute nothing at all to game play and just add to the frustration factor by not even making it possible to use the autorun on routine trips.

Re: Travel and travelling time. A review.

Time is all that really matters in mmo's.

Any objective where the player is not actively involved lends itself to automation, but repetitive objectives that require full concentration quickly become frustrating.

Ideally, during a game session there will be periods with high and low levels of concentration required, which increases the number of times something can be repeated before becoming frustrating.

With something like travel, requiring concentration/attention at 3 points would be suffcient to reduce automation. At ICS-Alpha, you have to concentrate at 3 points, leaving the terminal to drive to the path entry point, at the path entry point, and again at the teleporter. Why this doesn't work is there is not enough time between concentration points.

This would probably feel better if there were 2 concentration points closer together, with an extended break between, even if the overall time to travel was the same.

20 (edited by Dark Omega 2011-04-25 22:32:10)

Re: Travel and travelling time. A review.

If people can't tolerate taking 10-20 minutes to travel somewhere then I think the A.D.D. meds need to be increased. You could travel from most current places to most other points in that much time. What your driving and how your fit obviously plays a big part in travel time. If you don't like your heavy plated mech's speed, fit light and carry  mods in your cargo.

Re: Travel and travelling time. A review.

Arga wrote:

Time is all that really matters in mmo's.

Any objective where the player is not actively involved lends itself to automation, but repetitive objectives that require full concentration quickly become frustrating.

Ideally, during a game session there will be periods with high and low levels of concentration required, which increases the number of times something can be repeated before becoming frustrating.

With something like travel, requiring concentration/attention at 3 points would be suffcient to reduce automation. At ICS-Alpha, you have to concentrate at 3 points, leaving the terminal to drive to the path entry point, at the path entry point, and again at the teleporter. Why this doesn't work is there is not enough time between concentration points.



This would probably feel better if there were 2 concentration points closer together, with an extended break between, even if the overall time to travel was the same.

I agree we need travel to be less of a chore and more of a semi afk thing at certain point of your trip. Completely straight land bridges and shorter travel time in certain aspects of the game specially for newbie missions.

RIP PERPETUUM

Re: Travel and travelling time. A review.

Hm, it already is a semi-afk thing... Its quite relaxing to read the newspapers while traveling to your next destination.

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Re: Travel and travelling time. A review.

ITT: GIEF HEARTHSTONE PL0X!!1!!

Travel is fine and gives me, as a 135kph beta island tackle bot, a perfect opportunity to grasp my prey. The easier it is for a bot to move around, the moar likely I'll be out of a role.

Sheesh, thanks... roll

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Shake your chains to earth, like dew
Which in sleep had fall'n on you:
Ye are many - they are few."

Re: Travel and travelling time. A review.

Dark Omega wrote:

If people can't tolerate taking 10-20 minutes to travel somewhere then I think the A.D.D. meds need to be increased. You could travel from most current places to most other points in that much time. What your driving and how your fit obviously plays a big part in travel time. If you don't like your heavy plated mech's speed, fit light and carry  mods in your cargo.

.. it takes me 40 minutes to get to work.  real life travel times suck and have no place in a game ;P

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Re: Travel and travelling time. A review.

To comment on the Highway part of what was said in the podcast;

i don't think the highway should be a commit and ride. The player should be in control and able to enter and leave when they please, and conversely an ambush should be able to be set anywhere along the path.

I do understand the point about seeing this coming, the simple solution is your sensor range is reduced by 100% while under the speed influence.