Topic: Economic woes

Guess who's got more to say? The factors that drive the economy in this game are another big problem for me. I'll start with the most recent system introduced...

Noralgis is necessary in T4 production and the production of a few lower-tier modules. You invest in them but you can't defend them. They're safe only from an enemy that doesn't seek them out. Fortunately the feature is so boring that most people on the beta islands stopped persistently searching after about a week. I suspect this was expected to be a new, interesting source of conflict. Strategically, depriving the enemy of a precious resources is well worth the effort. But as a game mechanic it's missing a key element... fun. Frustration, sure; fun, no.

On alpha, you can hover over it and make sure it gets the proper sun, even play Mozart to help it grow. You can also watch someone drive up and harvest your precious plant and not be able to do a thing about it. On beta, you plop it in some corner and hope that hostile arkhe you can't stop from undocking from your outpost doesn't find it, or your blind (signal detection) harvester doesn't get ganked as you drive 2-3km to your plants.

And the increased Espitium requirements for T4 production along with the addition of Briochit (I so want to say something other than "chit") simply makes production of some T4 modules silly when weighed against their performance improvement over T3 or where else you could use the Briochit.

On to the redistribution of raw resources... I'm not a miner, so I really can't speak first-hand about what happened. But I suspect I know the reason for the change; to encourage people to stop vertically-integrating (doing every step of the manufacturing process, from gathering of all materials to final production in-house) and start specializing in their regional resources and start using the market sell the excess and buy what isn't so easily gathered locally. But I talk to others who are miners. They're convinced the change was done just to piss them off. It should have come with an RP explanation from the Syndicate (suggest to the players how they're expected to adapt) and offer a carrot along with the stick. E.g., a 4% reduction in the VAT (with a floor of 0%) on an island for sales of raw mats that are scarce on that island.

And the distribution of resources to begin with... In a comment I made on the dev blog about the updates to overseers, I said making them more difficult or giving them escorts doesn't make them more risky for all, it simply reduces the size of the playerbase that can take them down with nominal risk. When my buddy rolls out to mine Epriton, he does it no differently than if he were mining HDT. My buddy and I make some modules that use Epriton and others that don't. Because of the quantities of resources needed, they require about the same effort to build. To us, they're pretty much equivalent and we treat/use them as such. But I can turn around and sell one to an alpha-dweller for eight times the price of the other. I cannot fathom a reason why someone would play this game just to live on Alpha. They don't just get the short end of the stick, they get the end of the short end of the stick (especially the non-miners).

Maybe beta-dwellers are supposed to have easy access and ample supply while alpha-dwellers are left starving? I just hope it's not meant to be "incentive" for people to move to beta. One of the most important lessons I think can be taken from stEVE is that the vast majority of alpha-dwellers are not there because the economics make sense, they're there because they're (pvp) risk-adverse. It doesn't matter if the goose the laid the golden egg lives on beta; all they'll ever see is the axe poised to chop their head off.

A system with built-in frustration that dictates a huge divide between haves and have-nots doesn't seem the way to go.

Re: Economic woes

The only way to reliably access the beta resources is to join an existing alliance. New or convergent Alpha corps/Alliances can never gain enough strength to challenge the few corps that 'got there first'.

This 'may' change with the addition of 6 new Islands, if the new Alpha Islands provide the resources for new alliances to challenge the status Quo, but more likely the existing alliances that are bored with Beta now because they have everything they need, will get excited for a few weeks about taking the new land, and then be back on top, but multiples of times stronger with access to the next level of resources.

I don't know how you make it possible for Alpha corps to get strong enough to challenge Beta/Gamma without removing the incentive for them to do so, but if they have the incentive to move, but no opportunity to get strong enough to do so, then its broken either way.

I suppose a suggestion would be 1 time events that weaken the beta alliances so badly that Alpha has a chance. Like a Syndic invasion to an outpost that is aggressive to the ownering corp, but non-agressive to neutral players; during an intrusion. Or some way to buy temporary help from the game in an intrusion.

TLDR: "A system with built-in frustration that dictates a huge divide between haves and have-nots doesn't seem the way to go."

Re: Economic woes

Arga it's pretty easy, make the outpost on the new islands npc.

Only people active there can claim they own the land, and the mega alliances or mega blobs that can't play on their own will have to spread.

Re: Economic woes

Although I agree with you, about the result if the new beta islands with NPC outposts, it also seems like a great waste of potential PVP possiblities NOT to make them a resource to fight over.

Ideally, the islands would be empty, and all structures would be POS on those islands. But POS is still many months away; if not longer if they try to POS help balance the have's and the have nots.

A beta corp is one that uses the islands facilities and resources to gain power; either economic or military. Raiding and disrupting a beta corp's operation is a resource sink. A prefectly viable tactic to weaken an opponent for conquest, but without a long term plan, your simply losing more power than you are gaining, until you can no longer support the raiding either.

Re: Economic woes

Currently the primary "reward" for living on beta is access. Access to epriton; access to higher tier NPCs; somewhat better access to Noralgis. This has got to be immensely discouraging to alpha-dwellers who either don't see immediate prospects for moving to, or simply don't care to move to, beta. I think it would be healthy to see this reward shift from largely being one of access to one of efficiency. There should be very little that can be had on beta that can't be had on alpha, but it should come much more easily.

For beta-dwellers, a portion of what makes life more efficient should be inherent to beta itself. A good example of this is level 3 refineries. You net more commodities for the same quantity of resources gathered. The majority of efficiencies should come from things the residents build for themselves (upgrades, new infrastructure, etc) which can in turn be damaged or demolished by their enemies.

For alpha-dwellers, non-regenerating fields of epriton should periodically appear in random locations. Roaming gangs of up to 5th tier mechs and heavy mechs should occasionally be seen. (Noralgis should die planet-wide and be removed from the game.) Intel on the timing and location of the appearance of these top-tier resources could be given out to hard-working players via the assignment system (or some other system; I'd love to see the megas' individual sub-corps become relevant on their own through various new features). The intel could be given to a limited number (1-3?) of players in the 2 hours before the spawn (alternatively in the window 22-26 hours before the spawn).

There needs to be some mechanism that gives people working specifically towards finding these resources a leg-up over the other alpha residents who can, of course, stumble upon them with a geoscanner or signal detector. Having a goal isn't very fulfilling when you don't believe there are actions you can take that improve your chances of reaching that goal.

On beta, there should be periodic roaming gangs of 5th tier spawns of the color not dominant on the island, along with intel given via whatever mechanism.

As for an "incubator" island where alpha-dwellers could make their first forays into open pvp, I like the idea of an island similar to, but larger than, the existing betas with 6 access teleporters, and 2 outposts for each faction (Asintec, ICS, TM) at which nobody can set their home. (With Syndicate protection zones around them?) Hopefully it would be difficult for even an organized group to dominate since, when they die, they'd end up at their "home" on some other island as well.

Perhaps initially limit the spawns to 4th tier mechs and heavy mechs (of all colors) so the island itself is less attractive to the residents of the betas. If the island turns out to be too hostile for newcomers, bump it up to 5th tier so it becomes more attractive as a resource to beta-dwellers. It's possible that, while the island may become more crowded, it may also be somewhat safer since the different groups will likely be hostile to one another and might be reluctant to commit to a fight when they know they may get jumped while already engaged. Ultimately, whether any island can serve as a good introduction to open pvp will depend upon how much the established pvpers view it as a barrel in which to shoot fish.

Re: Economic woes

Alpha should never ever have everything thats available in Beta, its risk vs reward.  Where do you think all the Zydrine and Megacyte comes from in Eve??

imho they actually placed too many resources with regards to types available on alpha.  Anything that is tier 3 or 4 should require access to resources on a beta island, it makes it profitable for industrialists who risk going to beta islands and provides something to fight over for the pvpers

Would you even dream of asking for those things to be available in empire space?

Re: Economic woes

Jelan wrote:

Alpha should never ever have everything thats available in Beta, its risk vs reward.  Where do you think all the Zydrine and Megacyte comes from in Eve??

/cough  --->  (drone missions). people need to stop using eve as an example,. the 2 games are nothing like each other.. faaak sakes

everything should be in reach to Alpha players,.. beta just needs a better turf war system,. POS should be a good start,. BUT everything EVERYTHING should be at the alpha players disposal. PVP will not brew in a boring game,.

the fourms here are complete crap atm,.. Alpha needs to be fixed first,. at this point,. Beta and its closed mind inhabitants should be put second,. the game is clearly boring to the new comer.

Alpha all so needs pvp,. faction pvp or something.. the whole risk vrs reward should be loot drops and gold,. but raw mats for crafters should be on Alpha.. Crafters and cannon fodder npc hunters need to be saved from bordom,. pvpers like my self are hardy,. we can wait,..

just get some more useless fun into the game first..

Re: Economic woes

Jelan wrote:

Alpha should never ever have everything thats available in Beta, its risk vs reward.  Where do you think all the Zydrine and Megacyte comes from in Eve??

Also from mission runners melting mods down. smile

John 3:16 - Timothy 2:23

Re: Economic woes

Both are correct but not in the same quantities that 0.0 industrialists mine and transport, i used to move 1 or 2 rorqual full of zyd and mega to empire every week for sale.

The point is if everything is available on Alpha then there is no reason for the beta islands to exist, so you may as well put arenas in and we can queue up to fight as there's nothing to fight over and nothing to protect.

Look at the massive border skirmishes that have been fought in EvE over high end moons.

And for all your "this isnt like EvE" No your right again, its concept and pvp is much better, however the economics are exactly the same

Re: Economic woes

Arga wrote:

Although I agree with you, about the result if the new beta islands with NPC outposts, it also seems like a great waste of potential PVP possiblities NOT to make them a resource to fight over.

Ideally, the islands would be empty, and all structures would be POS on those islands. But POS is still many months away; if not longer if they try to POS help balance the have's and the have nots.

A beta corp is one that uses the islands facilities and resources to gain power; either economic or military. Raiding and disrupting a beta corp's operation is a resource sink. A prefectly viable tactic to weaken an opponent for conquest, but without a long term plan, your simply losing more power than you are gaining, until you can no longer support the raiding either.