1 (edited by Voodh 2011-02-16 10:26:29)

Topic: Detection/masking radar and players

Maybe we could know by some way (color, overview, sound) if the player we see on our radar has already seen us.

Because with the formula and the modules, it's a bit boring to calculate each time depending the bots we meet.

Re: Detection/masking radar and players

It would be handy for default sensor ranges, but you can't do this for sensor modules, because you can't know they have one fitted or not. And it would be unfair to flag this somehow on the radar, without a chassis scanner being involved.

And the problem with doing it for default ranges is that potentially it's false information if they do have a sensor module fitted.

"...playing a game is the voluntary attempt to overcome unnecessary obstacles."
Bernard Suits, 1978

Re: Detection/masking radar and players

This could be a seperate advanced skill, giving you a % chance to interpert incoming signals to determine if you are on someone else's radar.

Point is, don't give this information to players for free, but someone dedicated to being sneaky would want it. If the detection was % based too, you wouldn't know for sure that you are in the clear, only that you had definetly been detected.

4 (edited by Voodh 2011-02-16 21:55:57)

Re: Detection/masking radar and players

Campana wrote:

It would be handy for default sensor ranges, but you can't do this for sensor modules, because you can't know they have one fitted or not. And it would be unfair to flag this somehow on the radar, without a chassis scanner being involved.

And the problem with doing it for default ranges is that potentially it's false information if they do have a sensor module fitted.

You didn't understood at all. This is concerning only the players we already see on our radar. This is not unfair, you already see them.

The game doesn't care if they are fitted or not, the game know (when we have them on our radar) if they see us or not on their radar (because we appear or not on their radar, understood?). This detection won't be based on the defaut range of course, because this would be unuseful and stupid, the detection will be based in live on what's happening.

Knowing that the target we can see saw us or not, allows us to decide to move to escape or to stay hide.

There is nothing unfair or false in all that stuff. Just useful datas.

5 (edited by Bud Fox 2011-02-16 22:05:54)

Re: Detection/masking radar and players

Yea go ahead and overcomplicate things...

In the old mech-games there was a concept of active and passive radar.

Active radar = more range and able to detect passive radars
Passive radar = less range, less visible but harder to detect anything

Being on a hill increases your range even further.
A marker on your map indicates how far your active/passive radar currently goes.
Weapon system cant acquire a lock if your radar is in passive mode.

Example:

Active mode radar with 1500m range:
detects active radars at 1500m
detects passives at 750m

Green marker (100% detection) 750m
Second marker (white circles like we have right now): 1500m

Passive mode radar with 300m range:
detects actives at 300m
unable to detects passives

No green marker!
white marker: 300m

Right now you have everything precalculated and in your head or on a sheet...

Howto implement:
- dedicated radar slot(S/M) on a mech/bot so you can only have ONE radar module at a time..
- different active/passive radar modules which have different capabilities. Every module can be switched between active and passive...

Right now we have this signal maskers/detectors thing which is basically the same thing - except:

Lots of different masker/detector modules
There are no markers (you have to calculate and set them yourself everytime you change your bot)
Even a light bot can fit the most advanced stuff.
Hills and valleys dont make a difference.
Youre not forced to switch between passive(defensive) and active(offensive) in order to attack

http://blog.perpetuum-online.com/posts/2011-01-28-stealthy-patch-incoming/ wrote:

One of the most fixed things in Perpetuum up to now was the constant, fixed distance of 1000 meters players could see each other. The upcoming update changes this. First of all: how far you can see and how far you can be seen from will both vary based on the robot you use, and the two will not necessarily be the same anymore. This alone would be an interesting change, but we're also adding modules to help modify these values during gameplay: The detection type module will allow you to see farther away. The flare type module will make the target show up for people farther away. And of course, the stealth type module will allow you to be seen from a shorter distance. These changes will bring the PvP on the beta islands to a whole new level, and we're excited to see how players will be using the new features to give them a tactical edge over their enemy.

Well, we put that modules on light bots which makes them harder to detect except if you have a detector. Means everyone intrested in PvP is forced to get some of these modules.
Also: you can target someone that cant see you until you lock him and if you remove the lock he cant even see you anymore wink

In other words: Not funny! Just more cat and mouse gameplay. Only question is whos the cat and whos the mouse..

6 (edited by Voodh 2011-02-16 22:12:34)

Re: Detection/masking radar and players

Well if you want to overcomplicate you can say all the things you just said. With an alt.

I'm just saying we should know if someone we can see on our radar saw us or not. Not complicate. Useful and funny.

7 (edited by Alexander 2011-02-16 22:15:35)

Re: Detection/masking radar and players

Bud Fox wrote:

*Stuff*

I am sorry you don't like the mechanic but it's working out very well. Detector modules and stealth modules can't be fit on to every robot in an attacking force without causing fitting issues and DPS issues (and speed issues too!)

It's more about getting people talking to each other. The reason some people have been so successful with these modules is they're not using them just defensively. Just because you can see someone doesn't instantly change the course of battle. It's what you do with that knowledge.

The system works but there should not be a way to tell if someone else has seen you. If they start running away they've seen you. Simple as. If they lock you.. They've seen you.

Keep SOME skill in the system please. I too thought it would be nice but now having used the modules a lot I can see where skill comes into it. Judging terrain, speeds and player actions. I love it. Perhaps a side benefit to a Masking unit would be that you can tell who can and can't see you but not a detector unit. smile Masking units need more of a bonus. 1 person can see everything with 1 module but the entire force has to git maskers to sneak. Doesn't seem fair. sad

The Game

Re: Detection/masking radar and players

Voodh wrote:

Well if you want to overcomplicate you can say all the things you just said.

I'm just saying we should know if someone we can see on our radar saw us or not. Not complicate. Useful and funny.

Example - you're in a light bot. You see a sequer 1600m away. You can see him, but you know he can't see you unless he has a sensor module fitted.

Now, suppose all people on your radar are coloured yellow if they can't see you and red if they can.

If that sequer is coloured yellow, you know he doesn't have a sensor module. If he's coloured red, you know he does...

Immediately this radar feature is telling you about the fitting of a robot you haven't even targetted. On the whole, I think it's better to be doing these on the fly calculations than have this scenario.

I agree the whole system is a bit complicated...but not sure how you would solve it without spoiling it.

"...playing a game is the voluntary attempt to overcome unnecessary obstacles."
Bernard Suits, 1978

Re: Detection/masking radar and players

Campana wrote:
Voodh wrote:

Well if you want to overcomplicate you can say all the things you just said.

I'm just saying we should know if someone we can see on our radar saw us or not. Not complicate. Useful and funny.

Example - you're in a light bot. You see a sequer 1600m away. You can see him, but you know he can't see you unless he has a sensor module fitted.

Now, suppose all people on your radar are coloured yellow if they can't see you and red if they can.

If that sequer is coloured yellow, you know he doesn't have a sensor module. If he's coloured red, you know he does...

Immediately this radar feature is telling you about the fitting of a robot you haven't even targetted. On the whole, I think it's better to be doing these on the fly calculations than have this scenario.

I agree the whole system is a bit complicated...but not sure how you would solve it without spoiling it.


Why does Compana always have to make so much sense? She's far too intelligent to be a female. I kid, I kid.

Re: Detection/masking radar and players

Alexander wrote:

I am sorry you don't like the mechanic but it's working out very well. Detector modules and stealth modules can't be fit on to every robot in an attacking force without causing fitting issues and DPS issues (and speed issues too!)

Yes its working great and thats what i dislike. Youre actually forced to use em and waste at last one slot on every bot.

Alexander wrote:

.. there should not be a way to tell if someone else has seen you. If they start running away they've seen you. Simple as. If they lock you.. They've seen you.

Agreed.

Alexander wrote:

Keep SOME skill in the system please. I too thought it would be nice but now having used the modules a lot I can see where skill comes into it. Judging terrain, speeds and player actions. I love it.

Agreed.

Alexander wrote:

Masking units need more of a bonus. 1 person can see everything with 1 module but the entire force has to git maskers to sneak. Doesn't seem fair. sad

Its also unfair that you just need one masking module to dodge every person without a detector. Thats why i suggest the (btw multiplayer proven) radar thing.
What kind of radar a player uses is up to him. But having one slot less on every bot just because you MUST use a detection/masking mods is just ... blergh

And i think active and passive modes would actually add a lot of tactic to the game.

Re: Detection/masking radar and players

You don't HAVE to fit a module and a masking module won't hide you from everyone. Masking modules are a choice but currently that choice is "Do I want to demob the target?" sometimes this requires a masking unit other times it won't. If you're fighting a masking unit all you're doing it creating an element of surprise but there aren't many robots it's even worth fitting one on.

The Game

Re: Detection/masking radar and players

Exactly what im talking about. You need either masking or detection mod.
Having neither of them is a disadvantage.

Re: Detection/masking radar and players

Having no laser tunings I find is a disadvantage. Oh, having no lasers too.

Annihilator said: Walking careless onto hokko without masking is like jumping into a bathtub with the hungry 30cm piranhas (infestation)
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Re: Detection/masking radar and players

Heckle wrote:

Having no laser tunings I find is a disadvantage. Oh, having no lasers too.

Not as much as having your detection range cut.
And btw im talking about radar and a radarslot. That would actually free a headslot. wink

Re: Detection/masking radar and players

The conversation has the smell of "I want all the advantages, without any penalties".

Re: Detection/masking radar and players

such things, step-by-step, slowly leads us to autofight system big_smile

Have a productive day, Runner