Re: Insurance action

Well... apparently, the simple fact that you could use the the insurance system the way it was designed... is an exploit.

It was a flawed design from the start. Just like we could consider that everyone that sold kernels before the price change, or everyone that produce T4 modules before they require the new material, were exploiters!

I think the devs are forgetting that the bots cost money to produce. It's not a miracle 1 million gain each time. No, it's 10 time less in reason of the production cost.

Plus, I believe it was helping the market to stay healthy, lots of buy order for basic materials, as they could be directly converted in bots, and the in cash.

It's like selling material to NPCs smile


People that exploited this didn't made that much money in the end.  devs removed 5-10x what they should have.

My blog about MMO design:
http://mmockery.wordpress.com/

Re: Insurance action

Gaulois wrote:

Plus, I believe it was helping the market to stay healthy, lots of buy order for basic materials, as they could be directly converted in bots, and the in cash.

...

neutral

Re: Insurance action

This may be doubtful for you, but I'm certain a number of buy orders where here to feed bot production, then they would use them in PvP, and let them explode as they are worth more than the insurance payout.

My blog about MMO design:
http://mmockery.wordpress.com/

54 (edited by Voodh 2011-02-13 23:00:33)

Re: Insurance action

And that is a very healthy way to produce Nic for the economy and against the inflation...

neutral

55 (edited by Saha 2011-02-13 23:02:38)

Re: Insurance action

Gaulois wrote:

Well... apparently, the simple fact that you could use the the insurance system the way it was designed... is an exploit.

It was a flawed design from the start. Just like we could consider that everyone that sold kernels before the price change, or everyone that produce T4 modules before they require the new material, were exploiters!

I think the devs are forgetting that the bots cost money to produce. It's not a miracle 1 million gain each time. No, it's 10 time less in reason of the production cost.

Plus, I believe it was helping the market to stay healthy, lots of buy order for basic materials, as they could be directly converted in bots, and the in cash.

It's like selling material to NPCs smile


People that exploited this didn't made that much money in the end.  devs removed 5-10x what they should have.

Poor logic. People using insurance with proper prod chars were making 400% cash a week, if not more. Asume you start with 25 million nic. In a month you'd have 6 billion+. Obviously profitability via sellig was better, but due to small market trading just couldn't cope with the volumes required to make proper amounts of cash. Devs actually intervened at a critical point where billions would have turned into 100s of billions causing rapid inflation as well as allowing individuals to dictate the market.
The market health wise, yes, you are right. You'll see a nice economy crash now due to market losing majority of it's opperational NIC. And no, around 2-3 billion NIC removed from economy is not a huge deal. Huge deal is that those 2-3 billion NIC were actually active part of the market paying the alpha miners who in returned payed the producers.

Was there a solution? Yes. But it would require devs actually spending time monitoring market and adjusting mineral respawn accordingly. Controlling the amount of minerals availability is by far the simpliest way to control market, prices, inflation and actually insurance. But I guess it was too time consuming or too complex. Doubt we'll see any decent economy in this game until devs learn the basics of economics.

Re: Insurance action

Yes Saha, you are right.

However, I am not a big producer. Only a small guy that made a few nics that way to to start it's production, and I got *** by this punishment. I am based in ICS Alpha, refinery and Factory are both level 1. I lost 10 time more than I ever gain.

I'm glad I still have some bots to sell in my hangar, because I don't have nic anymore, and we can no-longer do level 1 transport missions without loosing reputation. (which is bad, as I need a high reputation for production.)

Plus... well...  39 bots, on a 3 month period since release... doesn't that feel ridiculous?

My blog about MMO design:
http://mmockery.wordpress.com/

Re: Insurance action

Saha wrote:
Gaulois wrote:

-Snip-

Poor logic. People using insurance with proper prod chars were making 400% cash a week, if not more. Asume you start with 25 million nic. In a month you'd have 6 billion+. Obviously profitability via sellig was better, but due to small market trading just couldn't cope with the volumes required to make proper amounts of cash. Devs actually intervened at a critical point where billions would have turned into 100s of billions causing rapid inflation as well as allowing individuals to dictate the market.
The market health wise, yes, you are right. You'll see a nice economy crash now due to market losing majority of it's opperational NIC. And no, around 2-3 billion NIC removed from economy is not a huge deal. Huge deal is that those 2-3 billion NIC were actually active part of the market paying the alpha miners who in returned payed the producers.

Was there a solution? Yes. But it would require devs actually spending time monitoring market and adjusting mineral respawn accordingly. Controlling the amount of minerals availability is by far the simpliest way to control market, prices, inflation and actually insurance. But I guess it was too time consuming or too complex. Doubt we'll see any decent economy in this game until devs learn the basics of economics.

To multiply it past billions you would need an impossible amount of lines and hauling.

Re: Insurance action

Please CRY EVEN MORE .

Try to twist the truth in every possible way to try to convince people that you are poor victims.

The usual tools of cheaters and frauds.

Re: Insurance action

Crosshair wrote:

Please CRY EVEN MORE .

Try to twist the truth in every possible way to try to convince people that you are poor victims.

The usual tools of cheaters and frauds.

Do realise that you are now not going to sell anything for jack.

Re: Insurance action

Attacking the exploiters isn't productive.

Taking away the lesson that working in the spirit of the mechanics is more important than pointing fingers.

The Perpetuum game community is just too small for 'Malicious Compliance' with the rule set.

61 (edited by Gaulois 2011-02-13 23:32:59)

Re: Insurance action

Crosshair wrote:

Please CRY EVEN MORE .

Try to twist the truth in every possible way to try to convince people that you are poor victims.

The usual tools of cheaters and frauds.

It's not about twisting the truth. I don't do that. Ever.

However, I want to make it clear that although these actions might have been adequate in some cases, it was unfair, and completely overkill in some other cases.

And as other stated it, it wasn't the best way to handle this.

Plus well.... not ONCE wast it ever said that Insuring a bot, and letting it explode is an exploit.
It's so easy and simple to do.... buy bot on MARKET, insure it, explode it... that I couldn't ever fathom that one day, the devs would remove 1M from my wallet for each bot I bought on the market at a normal price, before exploding it.

My blog about MMO design:
http://mmockery.wordpress.com/

Re: Insurance action

Shaedys wrote:

Do realise that you are now not going to sell anything for jack.

do i hear now here the noble agents that where running the market with their cheated NIC, for the sake of the alpha miners, which wouldn't be able to sell their ore and get their hands on hat NIC.

and because they did so well on gaining NIC with their savely mined ore, the alpha-ore deposits got nerfed so hard.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Insurance action

What Shadey is saying, is that the PVP action is slow. The Bot market was artificially enhanced by blowing up bots for insurance. That loop hole was closed a couple of days ago when Ins. was turned off, but there was still spare NIC floating around for Corps to continue to purchase materials. Those corporations will now just increase their own mining ops, and alpha miners will have a very very small market to sell ore to, which will drive prices down, even though resources are more scarce.

Lack of Ins. is also going to put a hurt on 'casual' PVP as many players will not be able to afford to lose bots just 'roaming' around.

All around, the exploit, and the response are going to reshape the game.

Re: Insurance action

... and pvp roams will get more mining bots of the other PvP factions to shoot at.
on alpha island mining will be hard, as they have to compete with the countless alpha miners there that want to sell their ore.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

65 (edited by Saha 2011-02-14 00:20:32)

Re: Insurance action

Shaedys wrote:

To multiply it past billions you would need an impossible amount of lines and hauling.

Lines isn't an issue. Hauling yes, to an extent. I'm sure if we really wanted we would of found a corp which would have hauled for cash. What would have stopped this nic "generation" is only the limits of how much materials can be supplied due to either available manpower or hard cap via mineral respawn. When reaching the cap, the price would go up and make insuring not profitable anymore.

What I've been saying for close to 2 months now is that Devs have perfect tools to control mineral prices and therefore ALL market prices via mineral respawn rate. Yet they refuse to properly use it and instead have watched insurance fraud for months as well as shutting down insurance overall now. Silly if you ask me and, like several people have pointed out, will hurt the small or more casual PvPish corps most.

Hell, there were countless other ways which were even simplier to prevent insurance fraud without having to disable insurance as such. How about tying it to minerals market value which is required to produce the bot/mech? But I guess pointing fingers and playing white knights is far easier than actually analyzing problem and finding proper solution.

66 (edited by Lupus Aurelius 2011-02-14 00:10:50)

Re: Insurance action

Crosshair wrote:

Please CRY EVEN MORE .

Try to twist the truth in every possible way to try to convince people that you are poor victims.

The usual tools of cheaters and frauds.

I luv comments like this...it shows that despite 6.5 million years of hominid evolution, that many people still do not know how to use a brain.

Here are the facts people:
A) Devs put in an insuance system, that had short term(16 days at max skill) life, and payouts that actually allowed you to make significantly more than the actual cost to build the bot.

B) Before the announcement that insurance was being turned off, there was no statement on the forums, in the EULA, in the game description of insurance, no where in game or out that this was designated an exploit or a fraud.  People, GMs and Devs, when asked in the past, stated that it is working as intended.

C) Devs were informed, from multiple sources, how this system potentially was "broken", and took no action.

In RL, when you do a Root Cause analysis, you start off with with:

1) What is the issue?
2) What procedure, standard, regulation, etc., that it violates

If you find that there is no regulatory or procedural requirement that the issue violates, you implement corrective action by creating a new requirement to cover the issue.  You cannot at that time claim it is a violation of a requirement, only that your system did not anticipate the need for control of something that at the time was not an issue.

There was not exploit or fraud.  Because there was no rule / requirement / procedure that it violated.  There was no hack, becuase someone did not use out of game mechanics to affect in game performance.  The only ones that are at fault here are the Devs, everything else was done according to the at the time published game rules and functionality.  Corrective Action at this point would be to declare it an exploit, create a mechanic to prevent it, and publish it in an easily referable source, such as an Exploit Forum or list, and state from this point forward, it is not allowed.  To retroactively punish people for something that was not a violation prior to that point is inherently wrong, logically, and ethically.

In the gods we trust, all others bring data!

Re: Insurance action

Thank you Lupus.

My blog about MMO design:
http://mmockery.wordpress.com/

68 (edited by Euphoric 2011-02-14 00:33:45)

Re: Insurance action

For the systematic insurance frauders
---
Just because something isn't specifically mentioned as a violation does not mean it is a legitimate way to play the game. By that logic, the developers would have to anticipate every exploit possible in a video game and specifically prohibit its use.

Example:
Players are not allowed to:
speedhack, remove entire tiles of ore in one cycle, hack into the game code, go swimming in the ocean, fly to the stratosphere as a faster method of travel, train roaming packs into an intrusion event from another island, delete another player's bids off the market, remove other people from general/trade/help/recruit chat, etc, etc etc.

I don't agree with the sudden policing action with zero warning either, but to claim that insurance frauding wasn't obviously a gray area is silly.

For the "Honorable Mentions" who didn't systematically fraud
---

You are simply a casualty of PR maneuvering. It wouldn't do for the developers to only punish Infestation corporations, so they hunt out other, lesser violations to show their unbiased approach.

69 (edited by Dromsex 2011-02-14 00:34:27)

Re: Insurance action

Lupus Aurelius wrote:

There was not exploit or fraud.  Because there was no rule / requirement / procedure that it violated.  There was no hack, becuase someone did not use out of game mechanics to affect in game performance.  The only ones that are at fault here are the Devs, everything else was done according to the at the time published game rules and functionality.  Corrective Action at this point would be to declare it an exploit, create a mechanic to prevent it, and publish it in an easily referable source, such as an Exploit Forum or list, and state from this point forward, it is not allowed.  To retroactively punish people for something that was not a violation prior to that point is inherently wrong, logically, and ethically.

Thats simply not true. Something is an exploit as soon as it gets someone an unintended advantage. Declared or not. No need of hacks, bugs or declarations.

If u use the insurance to make money by intentionally blowing the insured item up - you dont use the insurance to insure yourself against accidental passive losses, but to actively gain money.

And by this you do something not intended. And by that you exploit. End of story.

70 (edited by Vortigon 2011-02-14 00:34:29)

Re: Insurance action

Lupus Aurelius wrote:
Crosshair wrote:

Please CRY EVEN MORE .

Try to twist the truth in every possible way to try to convince people that you are poor victims.

The usual tools of cheaters and frauds.

I luv comments like this...it shows that despite 6.5 million years of hominid evolution, that many people still do not know how to use a brain.

Here are the facts people:
A) Devs put in an insuance system, that had short term(16 days at max skill) life, and payouts that actually allowed you to make significantly more than the actual cost to build the bot.

B) Before the announcement that insurance was being turned off, there was no statement on the forums, in the EULA, in the game description of insurance, no where in game or out that this was designated an exploit or a fraud.  People, GMs and Devs, when asked in the past, stated that it is working as intended.

C) Devs were informed, from multiple sources, how this system potentially was "broken", and took no action.

In RL, when you do a Root Cause analysis, you start off with with:

1) What is the issue?
2) What procedure, standard, regulation, etc., that it violates

If you find that there is no regulatory or procedural requirement that the issue violates, you implement corrective action by creating a new requirement to cover the issue.  You cannot at that time claim it is a violation of a requirement, only that your system did not anticipate the need for control of something that at the time was not an issue.

There was not exploit or fraud.  Because there was no rule / requirement / procedure that it violated.  There was no hack, becuase someone did not use out of game mechanics to affect in game performance.  The only ones that are at fault here are the Devs, everything else was done according to the at the time published game rules and functionality.  Corrective Action at this point would be to declare it an exploit, create a mechanic to prevent it, and publish it in an easily referable source, such as an Exploit Forum or list, and state from this point forward, it is not allowed.  To retroactively punish people for something that was not a violation prior to that point is inherently wrong, logically, and ethically.

Sorry but nothing you said is relevant to the exploitation of a game mechanic.

It is common knowledge that exploiting a game mechanic for a personal benefit not intended to be produced by that mechanic is an exploit, and exploiting a game is against the rules.

The fact that it 'could' be done does not equate to it being 'legal' or 'not a violation' that's how game exploits work - they are an abuse of a developer oversight or program bug for personal benefit.

Noone with any experience of playing a computer game has to wonder if the mechanic that allowed money to be generated with insurance payouts is an exploit... it's obviously an exploit and exploits are against the rules.  End of story.

Anyone pleading ignorance that this was an exploit - fools no-one here.

71 (edited by Lupus Aurelius 2011-02-14 00:42:34)

Re: Insurance action

Dromsex wrote:
Lupus Aurelius wrote:

There was not exploit or fraud.  Because there was no rule / requirement / procedure that it violated.  There was no hack, becuase someone did not use out of game mechanics to affect in game performance.  The only ones that are at fault here are the Devs, everything else was done according to the at the time published game rules and functionality.  Corrective Action at this point would be to declare it an exploit, create a mechanic to prevent it, and publish it in an easily referable source, such as an Exploit Forum or list, and state from this point forward, it is not allowed.  To retroactively punish people for something that was not a violation prior to that point is inherently wrong, logically, and ethically.

Thats simply not true. Something is an exploit as soon as it gets someone an unintended advantage. Declared or not. No need of hacks, bugs or declarations.

If u use the insurance to make money by intentionally blowing the insured item up - you dont use the insurance to insure yourself against pityful losses, but to actively gain money.

And by this you do something not intended. And by that you exploit. End of story.


Nope, wrong.  First question that no one has answered - what requirement does it violate?  Until you can answer that, there is no violation. Period.

EDIT:  You can not prosecute someone for an activity if it does not violate a law.  You cannot claim someone violated a rule or requirement, if no requirement or rule exists to cover that issue.  A general rule that could be applied to cover unanticipated situations still has to have some criteria to which it applies.  Until you can show such a rule / requirement, you cannot state that anyone violated anything.

In the gods we trust, all others bring data!

Re: Insurance action

Was the insurance mechanic balanced by Dev Alf?

John 3:16 - Timothy 2:23

Re: Insurance action

I think one of the main issue that caused many casualties among small corp, is the fact that they decided that an assault could be produced for... let's say 600k. So the insurance would net a benefit of 500K.

Except that small corps in alpha were producing them for around 900k, while other in Beta would produce them for 500k.

The Alpha guys lost 5 times what they ever got from the insurance, while the Beta guys  barely lost the benefits they earned through the exploit.

Of course, it was impossible (or simply too time consuming) to differentiate between the two.

My blog about MMO design:
http://mmockery.wordpress.com/

74 (edited by Dromsex 2011-02-14 01:17:17)

Re: Insurance action

Lupus Aurelius wrote:
Dromsex wrote:
Lupus Aurelius wrote:

There was not exploit or fraud.  Because there was no rule / requirement / procedure that it violated.  There was no hack, becuase someone did not use out of game mechanics to affect in game performance.  The only ones that are at fault here are the Devs, everything else was done according to the at the time published game rules and functionality.  Corrective Action at this point would be to declare it an exploit, create a mechanic to prevent it, and publish it in an easily referable source, such as an Exploit Forum or list, and state from this point forward, it is not allowed.  To retroactively punish people for something that was not a violation prior to that point is inherently wrong, logically, and ethically.

Thats simply not true. Something is an exploit as soon as it gets someone an unintended advantage. Declared or not. No need of hacks, bugs or declarations.

If u use the insurance to make money by intentionally blowing the insured item up - you dont use the insurance to insure yourself against pityful losses, but to actively gain money.

And by this you do something not intended. And by that you exploit. End of story.


Nope, wrong.  First question that no one has answered - what requirement does it violate?  Until you can answer that, there is no violation. Period.

EDIT:  You can not prosecute someone for an activity if it does not violate a law.  You cannot claim someone violated a rule or requirement, if no requirement or rule exists to cover that issue.  A general rule that could be applied to cover unanticipated situations still has to have some criteria to which it applies.  Until you can show such a rule / requirement, you cannot state that anyone violated anything.


No, of course not LA. You used the insurance in an unintended way. There doesnt need to be a law against this ;D These ingame/eula rules are not there for legal reasons but to ease up the process - but of course they are not needed in a game...

They should have banned you all right away - hopefully this will still come.

75 (edited by Lupus Aurelius 2011-02-14 01:32:18)

Re: Insurance action

Dromsex wrote:

No, of course not LA. You used the insurance in an unintended way. There doesnt need to be a law against this ;D These ingame/eula rules are not there for legal reasons but to ease up the process - but of course they are not needed in a game...

WHere is the INTENDED USE defined?  Who decides what is intended, and not?  And how is that criteria communicated to the players, so they know?

Still have not shown it as exploiting ot violating anything, other than your opinion.

EDIT:  Don't get me wrong, I thought the system was poorly designed and defined, and needed to be changed.  However, my issue is with the way it has been handled.  To out of the blue accuse people or corps of violating the rules, and summarily issuing judgement/punishement, without discussion or a thorough investigation, is not justice.  It is a knee jerk reaction, and to retroactively punish people for lack of the DEVS listening to advice in the past about this issue, and they having stated to several people tht it is working as intended until it is changed, is logically and ethically wrong.  Everyone who plays this game needs to understand, that when you allow people to use arbitrary decision, and make accusations, not based on the facts, is not in anyone's interest, regardless how it might or might not benefit someone.

In the gods we trust, all others bring data!