1 (edited by Purgatory 2011-01-31 23:07:28)

Topic: 103 T5 heavy mech kernals to get 1% research?

I've been researching a lot of T5 heavy mech kernals, overlord heavy mech to be precise. I've been gaining a steady amount of research overall but something that doesn't seem quite right happend on the last 100+ kernals I researched.

Around 100-110 overlord heavy mech kernals were researched at once. I didn't receive much research atall overall, and I only received 1% research to medium missile launchers - This is the bit that strikes me as odd, i've never gotten anywhere close to just 1% per 100+ kernals before, statistically it just doesn't seem like that should happen. This shouldn't even happen with 100 light kernals, let alone heavy mech kernals, that give more research per kernal.

The devs will know the calculations and if that seems right or not, is this a bug that just wasted me 30 mill worth of kernals or is there any likelyhood of this actually happening?

Re: 103 T5 heavy mech kernals to get 1% research?

Kernels have a random fail chance and diminishing returns. Welcome to Kernel researching.

Re: 103 T5 heavy mech kernals to get 1% research?

Styx wrote:

... a random fail chance and diminishing returns.

A bit like large blobs, then smile

Annihilator said: Walking careless onto hokko without masking is like jumping into a bathtub with the hungry 30cm piranhas (infestation)
GLiMPSE™'s CoolPoints™ Leaderboard

4 (edited by Purgatory 2011-02-01 01:21:57)

Re: 103 T5 heavy mech kernals to get 1% research?

Styx wrote:

Kernels have a random fail chance and diminishing returns. Welcome to Kernel researching.

I'm not at the stage yet where kernal research suddenly slows. Also wouldn't the random fail be on a per kernal basis, it seems a bit odd for most of 100 kernals to decided to randomnly fail.

Also i've maxed out on many types of kernal research and I didn't experience this kind of thing previously. It's like researching 350 T5 assault kernals and getting only 1% to one of the primary modules those kernals give. That just doesn't happen.

5 (edited by Steeldragonz 2011-02-01 01:28:18)

Re: 103 T5 heavy mech kernals to get 1% research?

its been like this since a change during the obt maybe late cbt just before the obt. where the %'s of success kinda felt like that got swapped from a 905 success of research to a 90% fail. but so few peopl have bothered voicing anythin bout it its just been left... and when people do question it the response from everyone is " as intended" so i dont see anything being done about it at this point.

Edit : also this is why buying kernels isnt worth it anymore. even if the T5's are ment to give us pt4 research +bonus%, do those numbers look like a bonus %... regardless of diminishing returns you have to lern the damn research and this is only way to do it, and hunting down more then 10k krenels to do it for 1 items isnt right.

Freelance Agent/Merc Suppling All With The NIC For The Job

980X XSPC Cooling, ASUS RoG Rampage Extreme III, 12 GB Corsair Dominator DHX 2000Mhz w/Cooling Unit, 2x GTX 580 SLi, Creative Titanium Fatailty Championship w/ IO panel, 2x 128Gb SSD, 4x 1.5Tb hdd, BeQuiet Dark Power Pro P8 1200W PSU - Multi-BootOS

Re: 103 T5 heavy mech kernals to get 1% research?

On average I do get more than 1% per 100 kernals though when it comes to T5 heavy mechs kernals more like 5-6% and once or twice i've been lucky and got a lot more. To suddenly get 1% when I researched even more kernals than I usually do in one go and receive a sudden drop to 1% when the previous low was 5% seems very off.

Re: 103 T5 heavy mech kernals to get 1% research?

Could you summarize how diminishing return impacts research please ?
Thanks in advance:)

Re: 103 T5 heavy mech kernals to get 1% research?

each kernel has a certain ammount of knowledge it can give you, and for a certain set of items.

the research does not reroll if the result is something that you have already finished.

the more items you have already finished, the lower the chance is to get other ones up to max.
example:
100 kernels, 100 items possible - and you have already finished 80 items -> left is a 20% chance to get one of those last items. Add in stochastics and you will find your real chance even lower then that.

also the problem with the t5 kernels giving more knowledge -
if each kernel just rolls for 1 item, but gives you more % per hit, you chance of getting something out of them is not higher, just if you get something, it will be more %.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: 103 T5 heavy mech kernals to get 1% research?

Thank you for clarify this point, Annihilator big_smile

I was thinking that :
. completing the research on lower level kernels (green for example) allow you to learn every standard and T2 recipes available.
. then moving to higher level kernels will allow you to learn T3 recipes without wasting a "knowledge roll" on standard/T2 (because you already know them).
... I was wrong ... wink

Re: 103 T5 heavy mech kernals to get 1% research?

no - thats a bit different -

if the database is not bugged in some way, you can't get a t3 before a t2.

the knowledge data you get is for eg. "small laser tech" -> thats the whole progressive line.
If not, then thats perhaps the bug....

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

11 (edited by Purgatory 2011-02-01 21:55:14)

Re: 103 T5 heavy mech kernals to get 1% research?

Something has to be wrong here. The last 3 sets of overlord heavy mech kernals I researched only gave 1% to T4 medium missile launcher per 100-120 kernals researched. I did 3 sets of 100-120 totalling 340+ kernals.

That's 340 T5 heavy mech kernals for 3% to the one of the main modules these kernals give. Doesn't add up. Meanwhile I get consistantly 7-14% to T4 medium armor repairer with each batch of 100+.

Overlord mech kernals are just as bad, I get about 1% to medium missile launcher per 100.

This isn't just something that started at T4 level either, it wasn't until I was a good way into T4 that I started only getting 1% per 100+ kernals, and it's definetly not diminishing returns, i'm not over 80% yet.

I've had to adjust the prices I pay for kernals accordingly. Can't be paying 300-400k per kernal if for some reason i'm only getting 1% per 100 kernals. It was much better than that, and then suddenly boom, sucky research to that paticular module.

At the current research rate, it would take 10,000 T5 heavy mech kernals just to go from T3 completion to T4 completion. That does not sound right.

12 (edited by Purgatory 2011-02-02 12:23:02)

Re: 103 T5 heavy mech kernals to get 1% research?

Just researched around 45 hero mech kernals, gained 3% to medium missile launcher. This is wrong, the last 340+ overlord heavy mech kernals gave only 3% in all. I'm sick of these glitches and the devs keeping quiet about it. I knew something was wrong when I started getting 1% to medium launcher per 110 overlord heavy mech kernals.

It's very very bad that a glitch such as this exists ingame, and will I be reimbursed for the wasted hundreds of T5 heavy mech kernals? Of course not.

Re: 103 T5 heavy mech kernals to get 1% research?

can you be reinbursed for loot that didnt drop?
would any game log every loot roll you do?

kernel research is like looting. It doesnt matter how many of them you research at once, each one will be rolled seperately.

and please consider another thing - t4 medium equipment is the HIGH END.
T3 has no worth at all if you can research t4 with jus a few more kernels.

in beta it took about 16k lvl5 kernels to finish off every small module possible from it.
dunno if that number changed.

i really dont see why this should be a glitch after all - you get something - so its not impossible.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: 103 T5 heavy mech kernals to get 1% research?

Annihilator wrote:

can you be reinbursed for loot that didnt drop?
would any game log every loot roll you do?

kernel research is like looting. It doesnt matter how many of them you research at once, each one will be rolled seperately.

and please consider another thing - t4 medium equipment is the HIGH END.
T3 has no worth at all if you can research t4 with jus a few more kernels.

in beta it took about 16k lvl5 kernels to finish off every small module possible from it.
dunno if that number changed.

i really dont see why this should be a glitch after all - you get something - so its not impossible.


45 T4 mech kernals = 3% medium missile

340 T5 heavy mech kernals = 3% medium missile

You don't see the glaring problem there?

Also i'm sure it would take that many SMALL kernals, but heavy mech kernals give a lot more research % per kernal than a light kernal.

Re: 103 T5 heavy mech kernals to get 1% research?

small kernels give you nothing for medium missile launcher.

also - heavy mech must not be better for weapon research then mech.

like -> small bot gives you research to weapon, but not tunings
-> assault gives you tunings and weapons, but assaults give you also 10 other items you dont have in smalls -> chance per kernel to roll weapon is lower then on small bot.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: 103 T5 heavy mech kernals to get 1% research?

I've researched a very lot of overlord mech and heavy mech kernals and I can safely tell you that overlord heavy mech kernals give a fair amount greater weapon research than mech. I once had 13% through T4 from just 86 heavy mech kernals, with an average of 5% per 100 heavy T5 kernals. It's just the last 3 lots of 100 where something not right seems to have started to occur.

17 (edited by Purgatory 2011-02-02 18:31:45)

Re: 103 T5 heavy mech kernals to get 1% research?

Also, i'm still getting a lot of research to medium armor repairer. Originally medium armor repair was behind, because before I started on medium kernals properly I already had medium laucher to far through T2, medium armor rep was barely started.  Somehow this has turned around, and medium armor repair has caught up a full level of research to medium missile.

Re: 103 T5 heavy mech kernals to get 1% research?

A good way of putting it is like this. Say each kernal can give 12 different items in total, plus a small chance to fail. You gain 1% research per kernal used. You use 120 kernals, you should gain close to 10% on any one item roughly, give or take a bit for fails and randomness of items it picks.

The chance to gain 1% to any single item in this circumstance is slim, but it will sometimes happen, rarely. The chance for this to occur 3 times in a row becomes insanely low, but hey it happend and i've not even any evidence that it's going to stop happening with overlord mech kernals.

Re: 103 T5 heavy mech kernals to get 1% research?

Three observer heavy mechs in a row with zero research. WTF.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: 103 T5 heavy mech kernals to get 1% research?

noted

Re: 103 T5 heavy mech kernals to get 1% research?

The kernels contain so called techlines, in each techline there are the modules in tiered order. When you research, the server randomly pick a techline for you for each kernel, and increase its level, and by that you may unlock a new item. If the server pick a techline that is already at max level, the kernel can't provide any useful information for you. So when you reached the t4 in most items, you will higher chance to fail each time with the research.
Different kernels hold different number of techlines, some techlines only appear in higher level kernels only. And the total number of techlines is close to 100, and increasing as we add new toys in the game.

"Rock is OP. Paper is okay." - Scissors

Re: 103 T5 heavy mech kernals to get 1% research?

DEV Alf wrote:

The kernels contain so called techlines, in each techline there are the modules in tiered order. When you research, the server randomly pick a techline for you for each kernel, and increase its level, and by that you may unlock a new item. If the server pick a techline that is already at max level, the kernel can't provide any useful information for you. So when you reached the t4 in most items, you will higher chance to fail each time with the research.
Different kernels hold different number of techlines, some techlines only appear in higher level kernels only. And the total number of techlines is close to 100, and increasing as we add new toys in the game.

Why would it pick a techline you've finished? I can understand it choose techlines near their maximum and giving less research percentages as they require a lot more points but even with the reduced kernel price it still seems stupid to even bother researching anything is someone else in your corporation is researching. Having 10 Observer based kernels fail to give anything at all out of 12 kernels isn't a great feeling and the UI doesn't represent this at all. There is no way to view the techlines or focus effort into a particular area. If you want to make it so that one person never truly has all research without a massive investment at least allow new researchers to choose and view their path. Some people will want to focus on energy/engineering items only while others focus on modules.

If the techlines are hidden to make players figure them out instead of adding mystery it just a sense of no return. No reward for the hard work and it's a huge let down. sad

I hope other people agree with me when I say that researching kernels should be a hard process but there should be more to do with it than just a roll of the dice. I hate everything being so chance based with no control. Having to wait for lunar alignment and a witchdoctor to bless you just to get a module researched isn't fun.

The Game

Re: 103 T5 heavy mech kernals to get 1% research?

it picks finished techlines to keep you farming i think. good things shouldn't be too easy to get

Have a productive day, Runner

Re: 103 T5 heavy mech kernals to get 1% research?

Alexander wrote:

I hope other people agree with me when I say that researching kernels should be a hard process but there should be more to do with it than just a roll of the dice. I hate everything being so chance based with no control. Having to wait for lunar alignment and a witchdoctor to bless you just to get a module researched isn't fun.

More or less /signed.

The research system should be transparent as in you should be able to see what techlines kernels contain so you don't waste them for nothing.

The roll system where you can get a roll with no research doesn't really make too much of an sense either.
Why not make it so that you can't get empty roll, but adjust the amount of kernel needed to fully research techlines accordingly?
I mean then the system would be effort based and not luck based as it is now... people generally tend to hate with passion systems based on RNG.

25 (edited by Syndic 2011-02-21 11:13:18)

Re: 103 T5 heavy mech kernals to get 1% research?

I think this calls for a new extension or two!

[18:20:30] <GLiMPSE> Chairman Of My Heart o/
CIR Complaint Form

The Imperial Grand Wizard of Justice