Topic: Kains are to fast?

Are kains too fast?

Is EM gaus guns too light?

Is pvp kain doing 100km+ with wepon that does most damage in game balanced?

Discuss

Re: Kains are to fast?

Yeah kains are fast, so is the arbalest though. Personally i'm slightly against any faction having a speed advantage because speed is so important in perpetuum. But then how do you balance the fact that EM weapons have the shortest range in the game and if they can't get close enough to get into range they will be fodder in many situations?

Re: Kains are to fast?

Having a faction with somewhat faster units and short range weaponry is one thing, giving it a mech that is capable of outrunning pretty much everything but an Intakt is another.
While it makes sense for a Kain to be the fastest mech in the game, it should at least not be able to outrun the light and assault bots of his own faction.
Of course it wouldn't do that if there were some kind of stacking penalty in place. With 4 leg slots the speed difference between a tanked Kain and one with mass reductors only is immense.

One would imagine bots to be used as some kind of tacklers, that engage fleeing enemies at close range and prevent them from escaping until heavier units, like mechs, arrive to finish them off. Instead you have Kains keeping pace with Intakts and being among the first ones to arrive anywhere unless the terrain is particularly impassable.
It's hard to say what will happen in the game once the server population reaches numbers like 100 and above, but I'd imagine groups of Kains stampeding over the beta islands killing hunting parties all over the place. If I had the personnel at my disposal, that's certainly what I would do. I'd test how many Kains with Prompt Gauss Guns it takes to kill a full tanked heavy mech in one hit and take that number of Kains with me, everyone else shall follow along in Intakts to minimize our own potential casualties, since those high speed Kains are admittedly thin as paper.
There you go, moving along at speeds like 114 kph nothing has a chance to outrun you and you can pick your fights should you infact encounter something you can't handle.

Re: Kains are to fast?

Lets discuss this from PVP loadout precpective at first.

Now...

There is very little point to put any if all armor harderners and rapairers on bot for pvp.

Hell, if you are going to go with armor, then it is usualy armor plates + hardeners. Since one plate is 3-4 repair cycles of armor repper, and mechs dont have that sort of accu, to keep that up for long.

Also local armor repper do you little good under concentrated fire, so buffer with resistance is beter option.

But alas, why armor stuff is sledom used in PVP is because of speed. A slow bot got only chanse of engading something if campping stations or teleports, anywhere else it will be at disadvantage.

Not being able to dictate range, forcing it to go long range by default. And not to be able to run down or escape. Relying heavily on possible scout/tackler. And not able to give quick support for that said tackler.


In other words, Slow = dead, in the wilderness.

I feel that kain shuld as itself, not be nerffed as such. I feel that close range  Gaus guns shuld weight enought it to slow it down considerably. So it wont be able to run 100km/s with that loadout anymore.

Why?

Because wepons shuld have "tradeoff"  and disadvantages.

They are often thought to be same thing, but are not.

People say that short range is Gaus guns "disadvantage". I humbly disagree, Since the platforms they are suposed to used on, can run down anything save for intatk. Short range is not a disadvantage, its merely an inconvinience.

The range is "tradeoff" for Damage.

The disadvantage whuld be that they slow down your mech considerably. This whuld give you disadvantage that enemy can exploit.

Now people scream that longe range guns will have no disadvantage, dont worry, it is in making. Long range guns will have minimal optimal range, wich mean that they will do crapola damage if, for example, kain can get inside that range.

The trick, in this system, is to find balance between damage/speed/ranges.

Kain might want to drop one of the guns (even the, the thing is deadly) to be able to close in fast for the kill, sacrificing it's damage, yet still vastly oudamaging long range mech due to minimum optimal.

This will, ofcorse put kain at disadvantage against other dedicated close range bots.
But that is it trade off for being able to gankk longe range mechs with relative ease.

It wont be omnipotent. You will have to fit out it for specific role, instead using cockecutter template to preform all tasks imaginable.

This will promote creative thinking and teamwork, that is so frowned up on in these days casual MMO's (and i dont want this MMO to be casual, since it cant compete on PVE content with, abaut, any MMO in there right now. Player made content is king!)

Anyhow.

This system is what i want to see applied to all wepons and rances. Tradeoff and disadvantage/advantage. Not just in kains example.

Last edited by Siddy (2010-03-05 10:23:44)

Re: Kains are to fast?

Siddy wrote:

Now people scream that longe range guns will have no disadvantage, dont worry, it is in making. Long range guns will have minimal optimal range, wich mean that they will do crapola damage if, for example, kain can get inside that range.

From what I have heard minimum optimal mechanics whatever it was supposed to be is getting scrapped.

Also another thing I have heard is that active speed enchancing modules are being worked on...

It all turn back to old argument - Wait untill all things are implemented, balance afterwards.

Re: Kains are to fast?

so with that inffo, the kain is going to be even faster?

And i think the minimum optimal is the thing that is SUPOSEDLY replasing the scrapped tracking.

Can you quote the source of your inffo?

Re: Kains are to fast?

Maynard Benaui wrote:

It all turn back to old argument - Wait untill all things are implemented, balance afterwards.

Balancing is an on-going process because there's constantly new content being added to Perpetuum. Balancing is never truly finished. Therefore your statement is a bit silly.

Minimum Optimal range has been scrapped last I heard though.

Last edited by Styx (2010-03-05 15:59:49)

Re: Kains are to fast?

then, what is tholodical bots bonus

this is silly, but BACK on topick!

The kain, Gausguns and ludricous speed

Re: Kains are to fast?

Not a bad deal to speak about balance before things are implemented, so devs can know what are players feelings and ideas smile

It's right that kain seems a bit too fast ... and even if i cant tell if this will make em bots a must-have for pvp, their short weapons range "could" balance this. Before being able to shoot at another mech (be it laser or missiles) the kain could be locked and receive a first damage round?
But, what happens for a kain, fitted with long range lasers? wouldnt it be totally unbeatable?

Re: Kains are to fast?

Bambi wrote:

Not a bad deal to speak about balance before things are implemented, so devs can know what are players feelings and ideas smile

It's right that kain seems a bit too fast ... and even if i cant tell if this will make em bots a must-have for pvp, their short weapons range "could" balance this. Before being able to shoot at another mech (be it laser or missiles) the kain could be locked and receive a first damage round?
But, what happens for a kain, fitted with long range lasers? wouldnt it be totally unbeatable?

I assume you meant Long Range EM guns, which are terrible. They're not worth using at all over Short Range guns.

Re: Kains are to fast?

is it just me, or does that argument "PvP is all about speed" just fit for a certain type of PvP - the one that implies surprise attacks with small numbers, or ganking...

in group fights, those kains could probably called the "glass cannons of perpetuum"

but yes, somehow the kains feel a bit to fast for my taste, too.
When i think about the roles of each bot/mech in combat, i would expect the Intelligence-and electronic warfare Bots/Mechs to be a bit faster then the damage dealing ones.

Re: Kains are to fast?

PVP is all abaut speed, EW and range.

only the stationary play, like camping or defending favors any kind of defensive stuff.

dont belive it? go out in a gang, with Armor, EW and range and see what happens.

When it runs in to a gang that can dictate its distance and decide to engade you or not.

I bet your tacklers will habe a hard job to make any one of them to stay put.

Last edited by Siddy (2010-03-05 19:22:15)

Re: Kains are to fast?

yeah, it would probably end with a tie... and just a few lucky shots.

Re: Kains are to fast?

Styx wrote:


Balancing is an on-going process because there's constantly new content being added to Perpetuum. Balancing is never truly finished. Therefore your statement is a bit silly.

Only silly person would try to imply that beta development is the same as development of released game...

Re: Kains are to fast?

bunkker dude,

it will end in the slower gang dead

Maynard Benaui wrote:

Only silly person would try to imply that beta development is the same as development of released game...


I bow before your IMMENSE KNOWLEDGE OF MMO DEVELOPLEMT

Avatar creatio, hire this man.

Last edited by Siddy (2010-03-05 20:37:31)

Re: Kains are to fast?

Maynard Benaui wrote:
Styx wrote:


Balancing is an on-going process because there's constantly new content being added to Perpetuum. Balancing is never truly finished. Therefore your statement is a bit silly.

Only silly person would try to imply that beta development is the same as development of released game...

Only an even sillier person would imply that balancing shouldn't commence at all just because a game is still in Beta.

Oh, and I didn't imply that beta development is the same as development of released game wink

Last edited by Styx (2010-03-05 21:00:05)

Re: Kains are to fast?

Styx wrote:


Oh, and I didn't imply that beta development is the same as development of released game wink

Sure you did...

Re: Kains are to fast?

Styx wrote:

I assume you meant Long Range EM guns, which are terrible. They're not worth using at all over Short Range guns.

No, i really said lasers smile
If speed is first stat to consider, then what about using the longest range weapons (long range lasers then ...) to setup something that can shoot enemies from 500m away, thus being (maybe?) unbeatable??

Loosing %damage advantage can be a great lost, but cant it be balanced by overall superiority of such a mech?

It's just an idea ...

PS: is it REALLY necessary you begin a war in each post?
Consider each other argument, dont flame, try to be adult please!
Forums are becoming a ### succession of flaming posts ...
Pvp is online, not here.

Last edited by Bambi (2010-03-06 00:08:11)

Re: Kains are to fast?

rather than using lasers,  best named AC's offer good range/damage compromice in kains situation

Re: Kains are to fast?

Bambi wrote:
Styx wrote:

I assume you meant Long Range EM guns, which are terrible. They're not worth using at all over Short Range guns.

No, i really said lasers smile
If speed is first stat to consider, then what about using the longest range weapons (long range lasers then ...) to setup something that can shoot enemies from 500m away, thus being (maybe?) unbeatable??

Loosing %damage advantage can be a great lost, but cant it be balanced by overall superiority of such a mech?

It's just an idea ...

PS: is it REALLY necessary you begin a war in each post?
Consider each other argument, dont flame, try to be adult please!
Forums are becoming a ### succession of flaming posts ...
Pvp is online, not here.

It's an idea however as Siddy said AC's would be a lot more versatile, I'll check lasers on a Kain out though.

Not really sure what you meant about a forum war. Everything looks fine to me.

Last edited by Styx (2010-03-06 00:59:34)

Re: Kains are to fast?

Bambi wrote:

Pvp is online, not here.


you know where to find us ^^

Re: Kains are to fast?

wouldnt the ACs slow down the Kain?

ACs:   350 kg each (~ 840 kg with 4x MRE3000)
EMs:   250 kg each (~ 600 kg with 4x MRE3000)
Laser:150 kg each (~ 360 kg with 4x MRE3000)


but i think there lies the problem

Mass reducers dont just reduce the weight of your bot/mech like you would expect from the description.
They are reducing the whole mass and the whole armor. AND their percentages are probably stacking*. In that case, there should be dimishing returns** implemented for weight reduction, but not for the armor-penalty.

And the longer i think about it, i come to the conclusion, that the armor-penalty should get bigger with each module

*, ** = ok, there are dimishing returns already, formula is close to:
Mass*(1-bonus)^(number of modules)

Last edited by Bunkerkind Anni (2010-03-06 15:12:36)