Topic: Balance problem with energy drains/vamps still ignored?

Missiles are still the only weapon in the game that can fit a full rack of energy drain modules and not lose any firepower - this is highly unfair and will result in missiles being the undisputed king of combat - even the main tester of perpetuum agrees, as you can see by what he wrote in his blog about the ictus. He doesn't appear to see it as a balance problem though, not a good sign for things to come. When I read this I got a bit angry.


http://perpetuum-online.blogspot.com/

"Such a wonderful day!(at least for me, hehe)
Where should I start?
I won't lie: I have less time at moment to work on the game. So I have a bit harder time too, to get some nice info for you guys. Still, I join the server when I have a bit freetime. And of course, when something should be checked, I jump to the developer server, for a quick look around.

As I did it yesterday, I realized something, that I never did before: Ictus, our last EW mech on the line, will be the most awesome mech in the game actually. I spent time on trying different fittings, realizing, that actually Ictus will be a pvp massacre mech. Harvester of... robot souls.

<he may aswell have just said 'ictus will be the most awesome mech in the game, i tried many fittings and realised something, this will be the most overpowered bot in perpetuum, it will slaughter the majority of people in pvp because it's so imbalanced. This mech is the pwnzor, and i like it, so let's leave it this way>

Ictus actually able to use 3 energy weapon alongside with (or) 3 rocket launcher. (its 2+2+1/1, as you wish, 2energy with 3rocket or 3energy 2 rocket) What's really makes me say "awesooome" is that while it handles the three medium energy drainer, it's also able to use shield... +3 EW module. Basicly, he will dry your accumulator, while laughing behind a shield, and demobilizing +sensor suppressing you. Auch.

<basically he is summing up that the ictus and any other missile mech can fit a full rack of missile launchers, 2-3 energy drainers and still have room to fit the other types of EW in its other slots, making a trained missile user the dominant player in perpetuum - because turret bots will never be able to do this, you won't even find a turret user willing to sacrifice turrets to fit energy drains because that is counter productive>

I'm actually amazed about its animation complexity: I hope you can check it out soon too. The rockets on it's shoulder can actually roll back to it's back, (most of the new robots have this trick) It actually has a hand, and unlike the other Ew robots, the hand trick is solved with the currently used animation system. (Yes, on the list... as always. smile ) The hand can change into the weapon, and backwards. +The jackpot trick, that it its head moves like... I guess its *mouth* is moving. The movement animation is 10/10, and the mech also has a bit "crazymachine" feeling, because as it moves, it just feels like that the parts on his back are moving... And this is actually a really cool thing... ^^ that our mechs do hand gestures, ingame. If I'm correct we have 2-3 mechs with this feature at moment, but more will come.

And with nice hand animations... Well, everything is possible. smile

Last edited by Sinister (2010-03-03 15:47:55)

Re: Balance problem with energy drains/vamps still ignored?

My suggestion to fix this remains the same as before - Change how the slot layout works so both turrets and missile users can equip energy drains/neuts without losing slots for their main weapon type.

Re: Balance problem with energy drains/vamps still ignored?

Or make the missile mech not able to equip everything like the rest of the mechs.
no need to make everything more powerful when all you need to do is limit just one thing. big_smile

Re: Balance problem with energy drains/vamps still ignored?

I'm going to try really hard here not to sound to harsh. Sinister no offence but it seems all you've done is read the blog and drawn your conclusions. You haven't shown any practical examples of the ictus or missiles & Drainer/Neuts combo AT ALL. All you've done is quote the blog.

Now I suspect you haven't shown any examples because you haven't tested them yourself, or if you have you haven't tested them very extensively. The reason I say this is because the Ictus is infact one of the worst EWAR Mechs. For a Dedicated Drain/Neut bot it is terrible. The Ictus has no practical use in battle, I would take a Zenith over an Ictus any day.

No offence to Mancs, but what he wrote in the blog was incorrect as far as I'm concerned. As I've already stated, the Ictus is one of if not the worst Ewar Mechs. I imagine Mancs wrote the blog based upon the Dev test server experience he had. And that's fine because you can't properly judge a bot until it's been mass tested.

The real problem as I see it is that you, Sinister, have created a topic about how the Ictus/Drains/Neuts are unbalanced based purely on what someone else has wrote, you don't appear to have tested them at all yourself.

If I sound harsh I'm sorry, however it's extremely annoying to have someone claim something is unbalanced with no evidence at all.

Last edited by Styx (2010-03-03 18:16:13)

Re: Balance problem with energy drains/vamps still ignored?

As for the slot layout and claims that turret users will never fit a Drain/Neut;

Some turret bots can infact fit a drainer / neut without having to sacrifice a weapon, an example of this is the Mesmer. Regardless of this, the fact that missile mechs can fit drainers / neuts and not have to sacrifice a weapon slot is an advantage that just about makes them worthwhile in battle. If they couldn't fit them they would become redundant, this is because turret bots have significantly better damage/range/speed/tank.

Missiles have been nerfed extensively for the past couple of months now, to make it so they can't fit a drain and not have to sacrifice a weapon slot will be putting the last nail in the coffin so to speak.

Re: Balance problem with energy drains/vamps still ignored?

once in a time, i have to agree with styx - and there it is:

styx is right -

a full equipped ictus with maxed skills is probably a threat in PvP - against single other player.
But hey - with just two missile launcher and three drainer, its probably a really slow death for the target.... and a fast one for the ictus if there are two opponents

none of the EW-Mechs is weak at that what it is designed for -> EWar...

Re: Balance problem with energy drains/vamps still ignored?

I have to agree but I rather see it like this atmoment:
Ictus is good for pvp, but the other two ew mech is simply imba.
It's just mass stacking of demobilizer/sensor suppressor, which will cause you to be unable to run away, or to lock anything.

As I talked with alf lately, it's possible that we will have a balance in this, we tought about a few possibilities.
-Reduce the sensor suppressor's range. Pro: It's really high atm, 350m. Con: You have to get close, to suppress? hmm.
-Reduce the sensor suppressor's locktime modifier. If you use like... 4, the average loctime will go around... 110 sec, or more.

What's your thoughts?

I'm really interested in your toughts: each ew module should be useable in standalone way, or with stacking. Stacking nerf modifier is in our minds too, but we don't have atmoment time to create such a modifier element. Or we just want to do it some easier way.

Re: Balance problem with energy drains/vamps still ignored?

Styx wrote:

I'm going to try really hard here not to sound to harsh. Sinister no offence but it seems all you've done is read the blog and drawn your conclusions. You haven't shown any practical examples of the ictus or missiles & Drainer/Neuts combo AT ALL. All you've done is quote the blog.

Now I suspect you haven't shown any examples because you haven't tested them yourself, or if you have you haven't tested them very extensively. The reason I say this is because the Ictus is infact one of the worst EWAR Mechs. For a Dedicated Drain/Neut bot it is terrible. The Ictus has no practical use in battle, I would take a Zenith over an Ictus any day.

No offence to Mancs, but what he wrote in the blog was incorrect as far as I'm concerned. As I've already stated, the Ictus is one of if not the worst Ewar Mechs. I imagine Mancs wrote the blog based upon the Dev test server experience he had. And that's fine because you can't properly judge a bot until it's been mass tested.

The real problem as I see it is that you, Sinister, have created a topic about how the Ictus/Drains/Neuts are unbalanced based purely on what someone else has wrote, you don't appear to have tested them at all yourself.

If I sound harsh I'm sorry, however it's extremely annoying to have someone claim something is unbalanced with no evidence at all.

This topic isn't actually about the ictus being overpowered - it's about missiles in general having a huge advantage due to being able to fit a full rack of weapons, energy drains and EW while turret users would have to lose up to 50% of their DPS if they wanted all of that.

Turret users are the ones who need energy drainers, missiles barely even use any AP.

Last edited by Sinister (2010-03-03 21:11:28)

Re: Balance problem with energy drains/vamps still ignored?

Mancs wrote:

I have to agree but I rather see it like this atmoment:
Ictus is good for pvp, but the other two ew mech is simply imba.
It's just mass stacking of demobilizer/sensor suppressor, which will cause you to be unable to run away, or to lock anything.

As I talked with alf lately, it's possible that we will have a balance in this, we tought about a few possibilities.
-Reduce the sensor suppressor's range. Pro: It's really high atm, 350m. Con: You have to get close, to suppress? hmm.
-Reduce the sensor suppressor's locktime modifier. If you use like... 4, the average loctime will go around... 110 sec, or more.

What's your thoughts?

I'm really interested in your toughts: each ew module should be useable in standalone way, or with stacking. Stacking nerf modifier is in our minds too, but we don't have atmoment time to create such a modifier element. Or we just want to do it some easier way.

Reducing the range of sensor surpressors so that it is less than ECM or draining would kill this form of EW. Stacking nerf modifier is the most balanced way to go.

Re: Balance problem with energy drains/vamps still ignored?

Styx wrote:

As for the slot layout and claims that turret users will never fit a Drain/Neut;

Some turret bots can infact fit a drainer / neut without having to sacrifice a weapon, an example of this is the Mesmer. Regardless of this, the fact that missile mechs can fit drainers / neuts and not have to sacrifice a weapon slot is an advantage that just about makes them worthwhile in battle. If they couldn't fit them they would become redundant, this is because turret bots have significantly better damage/range/speed/tank.

Missiles have been nerfed extensively for the past couple of months now, to make it so they can't fit a drain and not have to sacrifice a weapon slot will be putting the last nail in the coffin so to speak.

Ordered best to worst

Damage EM>lasers>missiles
Range    lasers>missiles>EM
Best AP efficiency missiles>EM>lasers

EM bots fastest, missiles and lasers are equal speed in most cases.

Looks fairly even to me, all but the fact that EM bots have a speed advantage.

Then you have missile users who can equip energy drains while turret users don't get this luxury without losing significant DPS.

I don't see the balance currently. Missiles are still on top as the best overall bots in the game.

Re: Balance problem with energy drains/vamps still ignored?

Mancs wrote:

I have to agree but I rather see it like this atmoment:
Ictus is good for pvp, but the other two ew mech is simply imba.
It's just mass stacking of demobilizer/sensor suppressor, which will cause you to be unable to run away, or to lock anything.

As I talked with alf lately, it's possible that we will have a balance in this, we tought about a few possibilities.
-Reduce the sensor suppressor's range. Pro: It's really high atm, 350m. Con: You have to get close, to suppress? hmm.
-Reduce the sensor suppressor's locktime modifier. If you use like... 4, the average loctime will go around... 110 sec, or more.

What's your thoughts?

I'm really interested in your toughts: each ew module should be useable in standalone way, or with stacking. Stacking nerf modifier is in our minds too, but we don't have atmoment time to create such a modifier element. Or we just want to do it some easier way.

The problem as I see it is that ewar bots are self sufficient with excelent survival capabilities which makes them stupidly strong.

Imo, they should require team support to work(ie. high vulnerability, low speed, etc).

Random idea:
How about turning them more into remote booster role? E-war being very weak and requiring ewar bots that would boost module performance on other bots remotely?


However, there are more important things to balance first.

Last edited by Maynard Benaui (2010-03-03 23:56:40)

Re: Balance problem with energy drains/vamps still ignored?

Mancs - make ECM usable without full lock...

thats my thought about the issue that supressors are to strong...
but we have a topic especially about that problem.

Re: Balance problem with energy drains/vamps still ignored?

Bunkerkind Anni wrote:

Mancs - make ECM usable without full lock...

thats my thought about the issue that supressors are to strong...
but we have a topic especially about that problem.

Then ECM would be imbalanced. Currently the type of EW you use has no effect on your lock speed, and all forms of EW require a lock to be activated. First lock gets the upper hand pretty much in many situations. Don't even try to claim this makes energy drains underpowered because energy drain modules arn't a conventional form of EW - they are a chassis slot item, so people can fit both energy drains and surpressors or ECM. I don't see how this thread has became about other things.

In my opinion, the whole idea that energy drains are the main form of EW of missile bots is badly done because it has left a great imbalance in the game. Missile bots get the luxury of fitting a lot more EW than turret bots thanks to energy drains using a chassis slot.

I have no idea of how things ended up this way but it couldn't have been very well planned. You've basically taken the system that EVE online uses and then hybridized it into something very poor, that results in energy drains practically being exclusive to missile bots only, and they get the luxury of fitting surpressors/ECM along with it!

Last edited by Sinister (2010-03-04 01:57:27)

Re: Balance problem with energy drains/vamps still ignored?

Sinister wrote:

In my opinion, the whole idea that energy drains are the main form of EW of missile bots is badly done because it has left a great imbalance in the game. Missile bots get the luxury of fitting a lot more EW than turret bots thanks to energy drains using a chassis slot.

Seriously Sinister, have you even used a PvP fit missile bot? You speak about fitting Ewar on an missile bots, well I'll tell you right now that it would be complete fail. The ictus for example has 3 head slots, you fill them with boosters otherwise you're not going to be able to lock anything because of being suppressed / ECM'd. This goes for all other Missile bots. You NEVER fit Ewar on a none dedicated bot, it's just silly.

Sinister wrote:

energy drains practically being exclusive to missile bots only, and they get the luxury of fitting surpressors/ECM along with it!

Phrases like this just make you look like a fool, no one in the right mind fits ewar on a none ECM/Supressor dedicated bot yet you use it as a base for "OMG MISSILE BOTS ARE OVERPOWERED" when it clearly isn't. Go test some properly fit Missile / Turret bots then come back and claim that missile bots are overpowered, you'll have a hard time doing so because they aren't.

Last edited by Styx (2010-03-04 02:22:05)

Re: Balance problem with energy drains/vamps still ignored?

Styx wrote:
Sinister wrote:

In my opinion, the whole idea that energy drains are the main form of EW of missile bots is badly done because it has left a great imbalance in the game. Missile bots get the luxury of fitting a lot more EW than turret bots thanks to energy drains using a chassis slot.

Seriously Sinister, have you even used a PvP fit missile bot? You speak about fitting Ewar on an missile bots, well I'll tell you right now that it would be complete fail. The ictus for example has 3 head slots, you fill them with boosters otherwise you're not going to be able to lock anything because of being suppressed / ECM'd. This goes for all other Missile bots. You NEVER fit Ewar on a none dedicated bot, it's just silly.

Sinister wrote:

energy drains practically being exclusive to missile bots only, and they get the luxury of fitting surpressors/ECM along with it!

Phrases like this just make you look like a fool, no one in the right mind fits ewar on a none ECM/Supressor dedicated bot yet you use it as a base for "OMG MISSILE BOTS ARE OVERPOWERED" when it clearly isn't. Go test some properly fit Missile / Turret bots then come back and claim that missile bots are overpowered, you'll have a hard time doing so because they aren't.

And the same goes for turret bots, they are going to fit boosters too. This still leaves missiles with an advantage of fitting full dps + drains vs turret bots who can't fit drains because they'd lose too much dps.

I get it, you want to keep your pwnmobile missile bots with their ezmode energy drains as an advantage but it's simply not fair on anyone in a turret bot.

Last edited by Sinister (2010-03-04 02:30:03)

Re: Balance problem with energy drains/vamps still ignored?

Sinister wrote:

And the same goes for turret bots, they are going to fit boosters too. This still leaves missiles with an advantage of fitting full dps + drains vs turret bots who can't fit drains because they'd lose too much dps.

I get it, you want to keep your pwnmobile missile bots with their ezmode energy drains as an advantage but it's simply not fair on anyone in a turret bot.

I see you've completely neglected the fact that Turret bots have SIGNIFICANTLY better DPS than Missile ones. I've tested extensively Mech vs Mech, Heavy vs Heavy etc and I can say that 90% of the time in a 1v1 a Turret bot would beat the missile bot.

And don't go thinking I have a motive for making missile bots the Pwn race, I have a very well skilled turret character too so I won't be losing or gaining anything.

Last edited by Styx (2010-03-04 02:33:30)

Re: Balance problem with energy drains/vamps still ignored?

news flash


ictus blows - drainers as racial ewar is fail


well fit mech/heavy mech will never lose to ewar bot/mech 1v1

best ewar can get is a tie.

but the world is full of failfits.

Last edited by Siddy (2010-03-04 02:40:53)

Re: Balance problem with energy drains/vamps still ignored?

I'd like to declare support for the M2S guys in this matter.
It seems like Sinister didn't actually test anything relevant to the topic, he's just offering his personal opinion and some vague guesswork.

Re: Balance problem with energy drains/vamps still ignored?

one thing hasnt been mentioned yet by anyone here:

even with average skills, its hard to fit a Pelistal mech with all medium equipment AND medium drainers - without a CPU module wasting one of the headslots.

CPU usage of drainers is pretty high compared to weapons

*edit:*

Sinister:
plz tell me if you are able to fit a Tyrannos with a "Hoplite" configuration?

4x Armor repairer Tuning
4x Medium Missile Launcher
2x Medium energy drainer
2x Medium armor repairer
1x kinetic armor

i guess not, unless you have nearly maxed all CPU extensions for weapons, armor and overall.

Last edited by Bunkerkind Anni (2010-03-09 03:55:19)