Topic: Precision Firing

Would be nice to see precision firing bonus been adjusted to 4% instead of the actual 3%.

Because having 10 only give a 30% decrease which is not a lot on a 10m dispersion when you fire on light bot.

I know medium is meant to be use against mech but then having a precision skill is almost useless against mech.

Re: Precision Firing

not much when your firing on an assault bot either (just one class down).  With perfect level 10 precision and a base dispersion of 10 you have a...

57.14% chance to hit an assault
42.86% chance to hit a light bot
39.28% chance to hit ewar light

If on the other hand you put 4 light em on say a Kain, you can now hit your targets but with only 4 turret slots and no robot bonus  to damage you won't hit as hard as you could in a Yagel, nevermind the Arbalest that your trying to trade fire with.

Of course you have those two extra missile only slots, but you dumped all that EP into precision 10 just to try to put a round on target, never mind the other basic turret weapon support skills... now of course you will need to get seismics up to around 8 or so to get your missile hit chance up to the same fail rate as your EM guns...and then their are the missile support skills

So the mech is slower and doesn't hit as hard (even with perfect precision) but does have more armour and accum.  Lasers with a dispersion of 8 get up to a whopping chance to hit of around 71% though they do slightly less DPS... after accounting for hit %, and without any support skills/bot bonuses, the Laser mech is doing about 5.2 DPS per turret, the EM mech is around 5 DPS and the arbalest is putting out 5.94 base DPS per turret with 0 precision skill and never a miss... also I don't know what the laser bot looks like but the Arby has 20% more turret slots than the mech....

Anyway, I've been using the mech for some PVE, where I need the extra HP and Accum but otherwise I'm not sure what role the Mech should fill... it requires a greater EP investment, greater nic investment and under DPS's smaller bots in 1v1.

"You're living in a parallel universe." ~Syndic

Re: Precision Firing

2nd thoughts...

The mech isn't underpowered and the assault isn't overpowered, but their is a canyon between light and medium weapon bots...

maybe introduce a corvette class with high speed, 3 medium turrets, thin armour and a bonus to dispersion, it can out range and out DPS smaller bots but goes down fast in close quarters and under fire from larger bots with equal range...

"You're living in a parallel universe." ~Syndic

Re: Precision Firing

Missiles are once again the bot killers. Not turrets.

->You just lost The Game<-

Re: Precision Firing

Neoxx wrote:

Missiles are once again the bot killers. Not turrets.

more.

missiles trade seismics for precision unless I'm mistaken? The med launchers just had explosion size buffed to 8/9 as opposed to lasers 8/8... unless I'm mistaken that puts missiles in the same class as the other mechs... great potential but no viable targets.

"You're living in a parallel universe." ~Syndic

Re: Precision Firing

i think what you just ignore, the the huge damage that short range medium EM guns deal on alpha strike -> its enough to bring down a tanked tyrannos in two alphas.

If i remember correctly, a damge modifier of Promts was 300% * (extension-bonus + bot bonus)

It may be a high chance to miss an assault (50/50), but if you hit, a lwf fitted assault is gone.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Precision Firing

Mechs should do less damage to small targets than small targets do to mechs, period. This is balanced by the fact that mechs have longer range and more armor. It isnt really an issue in pvp (where being able to strike from a greater distance is quite the advantage) or pve (where you can choose the bot/mech you bring based on the spawn).

Re: Precision Firing

Annihilator wrote:

i think what you just ignore, the the huge damage that short range medium EM guns deal on alpha strike -> its enough to bring down a tanked tyrannos in two alphas.

If i remember correctly, a damge modifier of Promts was 300% * (extension-bonus + bot bonus)

It may be a high chance to miss an assault (50/50), but if you hit, a lwf fitted assault is gone.

No single player can 2 shot a Tyrannos (not an assault bot) though a large enough group can alpha strike just about anything with focused fire. Moar Guns!!!

No single mech pilot can alpha strike (or Beta strike for that mater) an assault bot with a lwf even on the rare chance (1.2%) that they actually hit the darn thing with all of their guns twice in a row.

It's all in the numbers.  Facts at the top, formulas at the bottom for math dorks like myself.

Standard Medium "Short Range" Gauss Gun
Base Optimal Range - 150
Base Dmg - 44 (28 Kinetic + 16 other)
Damage Mod - 170%
Cycle Time - 6 seconds
Chance to hit with level 7 precision - 50.63%
Chance to hit with level 10 precision - 57.14%

Expected DPS(per turret) with PERFECT precision skills - 7.12

4 gun alpha strike - 299.2 (less resistance)
Assuming weighted average of 40 points resistance (low) - 213.9
Probability of landing a 4 turret alpha strike with PERFECT precision skills - 10.66%

Expected value of Alpha Strike - 22.8 (for ALL four guns together)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Standard Light EM-Gun
Base Optimal Range - 120
Base Dmg - 22 (14 Kinetic + 8 other)
Damage Mod - 135%
Cycle Time - 5 seconds
Chance to hit with NO precision skill - 100%

Expected DPS(per turret) with NO precision skills - 5.94

5 gun alpha strike - 29.7
Assuming weighted average of 40 points resistance (low) - 21.2
Probability of landing a 5 turret alpha strike with NO precision skills - 100%

Expected value of Alpha Strike - 21.2 (for ALL five guns together)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Regarding extension/bot bonuses, players will have equal access to modifiers in the end game.  However, in the time in between the mech pilot needs to take their assault bot/small weapon skills to level 4/5 as a prerequisite before starting over again at 0.  They also need to invest heavily in precision skills.

Comparing Nuimqol Bots
The mech has a range advantage of 30m and does an effective 1.2 more damage on the alpha strike (but only if they've trained 10 levels in precision).  The assault bot controls range and terms of engagement with 17.9% more base speed.

Assuming the toon has rolled a pure combat build the pre-requirements (lvl 4 basic robot control, level 5 basic magnetostatics, level 10 precision) will set the mech pilot back 41,344 EP (28 days 17 hours) and a mech costs 375% more nic based on current market prices, which translates into higher insurance premiums and then you need to account for the higher cost of medium modules.

Net result is a comparatively very expensive robot that can edge out an assault in 1v1 due to higher armor and accum but that will never get a chance due to lower speeds that will not allow it to engage. Moreover, anyone with a few friends can field a 5:1 advantage at equal costs and with less EP invested and proceed to tear the mech to shreds.

I've used Nuimqol as an example, but missile and lasers users face the same problems, though slightly less pronounced.  Discounting other mechs (why would they be out in PvP to begin with?), mechs do not have any viable targets, even in PvE it takes 10 cycles at ~1000nic and 6 seconds per volley (a full minute) to bring down a single assault bot...

The math:

DPS = (base damage * damage mod * (1 - resistance)) / cycle time

Chance to Hit = target size / (dispersion * (1 - .03 * precision skill))

Expected Value = Probability * Result

Damage after resistance = Damage * (1 - resistance points / (resistance points + 100))

Probability to land Alpha strike = (probability to hit with 1 turret) ^ # turrets

Chance to land multiple "Alpha" strikes = (probability to land 1) ^ # of strikes to land

"You're living in a parallel universe." ~Syndic

9 (edited by Ember 2011-01-16 00:20:56)

Re: Precision Firing

Lyghtcrye wrote:

Mechs should do less damage to small targets than small targets do to mechs, period. This is balanced by the fact that mechs have longer range and more armor. It isnt really an issue in pvp (where being able to strike from a greater distance is quite the advantage) or pve (where you can choose the bot/mech you bring based on the spawn).

ability to tank  - advantage mech

DPS (mech) = DPS (assault) - see above

longer range (mech) < 17.8% higher base speed (assault)
viable targets - advantage assault
EP investment - advantage assault
NIC investment - advantage assault

Set aside who is doing more damage and the tanking for one moment... the mechs only viable targets are other mechs and heavies.  both of which are rare in PvE and given the current state of things probably don't belong in PvP where they can be torn up by a pair of assaults, that require a far lower investment.

They may be balanced, I'm not convinced that they are but the case could be made.  However, without a viable target they have absolutely no role outside of shooting the other idiots rolling around in mechs trying to do things that they could accomplish more efficiently in smaller cheaper bots.

Suggestions for a fix have been made here and elsewhere... improve precision, raise assault bot hit size, or introduce a med weapon class of bots (with bonuses to precision) inbetween the mechs and assaults.

"You're living in a parallel universe." ~Syndic

Re: Precision Firing

any change of precision firing or assault size would mean no role for assaults to fill in in the future.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

11 (edited by Lyghtcrye 2011-01-16 06:52:04)

Re: Precision Firing

Ember wrote:

ability to tank  - advantage mech

DPS (mech) = DPS (assault) - see above

longer range (mech) < 17.8% higher base speed (assault)
viable targets - advantage assault
EP investment - advantage assault
NIC investment - advantage assault

Set aside who is doing more damage and the tanking for one moment... the mechs only viable targets are other mechs and heavies.  both of which are rare in PvE and given the current state of things probably don't belong in PvP where they can be torn up by a pair of assaults, that require a far lower investment.

They may be balanced, I'm not convinced that they are but the case could be made.  However, without a viable target they have absolutely no role outside of shooting the other idiots rolling around in mechs trying to do things that they could accomplish more efficiently in smaller cheaper bots.

Suggestions for a fix have been made here and elsewhere... improve precision, raise assault bot hit size, or introduce a med weapon class of bots (with bonuses to precision) inbetween the mechs and assaults.

Viable targets? Any target that either has shorter range than you, or is slower than you is viable. Yes you will do less dps vs an assault or light bot. They have less armor. In PVE you will spend more nic on ammo, i still find killing T5 assaults to be much easier in a kain than an arbalest, and it's worth the extra cost. Assault bots with full guns, due to their lower base weight will move at a similar speed to a mech that eschews it's non racial weapon slots(missiles on blue/yellow, turrets on green). Mechs do have a hard time dealing with light EW bots, but that's perfectly balanced just like an interceptor. Plus with more head slots, you can lock faster, ramp up your dps even more, or just keep an assault out of the fight with suppressor/ECM.

You make the point that two assaults can beat 1 mech? Good. 2 lights can beat an assault too. And 2 mechs can beat a heavy mech. 2 pilots who are skilled should be able to take down a larger enemy. The mech does cost more than 2 assaults, but if you had 2 pilots, you wouldnt be fighting 2v1 in the first place, and 2 assaults sure as hell beat 1 assault.

Making it easier for large bots to steamroll masses of smaller ones is a bad idea. When that happens small bots will be useless, because then people will die before they can even get in range of a mech using an assault.

12 (edited by Annihilator 2011-01-16 16:22:14)

Re: Precision Firing

back with some math, not based on DPS

Arbalest vs. Kain (all relevant extensions lvl5)
- no hardener fitted (kain would have advantage)
- thermal damage ammo
- t1 weapons (small em, medium gauss)
- t4 LWF fitted

Arbalest:
~4s cycletime
~185 damage (resists included)
~100% chance to hit
~1040 hitpoints

Kain:
~5s cycletime
~340 damage (resists included)
~47% chance to hit
~1975 HP

1. Kain has 3 more open slots (2x head, 1x leg) to shift the advatage towards itself
2. Kain is probably faster with the same equipment
3. Kain has 90% more base hitpoints
4. Kain has 25% more range (both, optimal and falloff)
5. Kain can kill arbalest with 3 (18s) salvos if they hit, maximum 6 (30s)
- Arbalest can kill Kain with 11 salvos (44s)
6. Higher extension lvl to lower the hit dispersion of the Kain will increase its effectivity even more
7. Long range EM fitted Kain has more then twice the range of the arbalest, and can sniper it down, with 5 (best) to 10 (worst) salvos.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Precision Firing

Lyghtcrye wrote:

Viable targets? Any target that either has shorter range than you, or is slower than you is viable. Yes you will do less dps vs an assault or light bot. They have less armor. In PVE you will spend more nic on ammo, i still find killing T5 assaults to be much easier in a kain than an arbalest, and it's worth the extra cost. Assault bots with full guns, due to their lower base weight will move at a similar speed to a mech that eschews it's non racial weapon slots(missiles on blue/yellow, turrets on green). Mechs do have a hard time dealing with light EW bots, but that's perfectly balanced just like an interceptor. Plus with more head slots, you can lock faster, ramp up your dps even more, or just keep an assault out of the fight with suppressor/ECM.

You make the point that two assaults can beat 1 mech? Good. 2 lights can beat an assault too. And 2 mechs can beat a heavy mech. 2 pilots who are skilled should be able to take down a larger enemy. The mech does cost more than 2 assaults, but if you had 2 pilots, you wouldnt be fighting 2v1 in the first place, and 2 assaults sure as hell beat 1 assault.

Making it easier for large bots to steamroll masses of smaller ones is a bad idea. When that happens small bots will be useless, because then people will die before they can even get in range of a mech using an assault.

Greater range? We are talking about a 30m base range difference, I can close that in the blink of an eye, the advantage is negligible. I can fit 5 T2 guns on a light bot for about 25% of the cost of 4 T1 mediums on a mech and run circles around it any day of the week.  Heck I can buy a brand spanking new Arbey off the market for the cost of insuring a Kain and it takes almost a month of EP before the Kain pilot is at the same level of skill as a day 0, assault bot pilot.

Mechs have a hard time dealing with light ewar, I agree and I'm ok with that. light bots have a hit size of 3 vs the light ewar hit size of 2.75, so mechs can't hit light bots well either... I'm ok with that too, heck make em so small that the mech can't even touch them, I agree with you large bots should not steamroll masses of smaller ones! However, step down ONE class from the mech to the assault and the larger vastly more expensive bot should have a noticeable advantage or, maybe not.  My main point is their is a chasm between the largest light bot and the smallest medium bot that needs to be filled in.

As for 2v1, maybe I could have been clearer, I was alluding to cost/benefit.  I can field 5 assault bots for the price of a single mech to say nothing for the additional EP costs and yet it takes less than half that number to annihilate one, no contest hands down zerg pwnage. Debuff the assault hit size, buff the precision or throw a new bot class in the middle.

"You're living in a parallel universe." ~Syndic

Re: Precision Firing

5 assault bots for the price of a single mech

thas also 4 subscriptions more necessary to field that advantage.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

15 (edited by Ember 2011-01-16 18:48:27)

Re: Precision Firing

Annihilator wrote:

back with some math, not based on DPS

Arbalest vs. Kain (all relevant extensions lvl5)
- no hardener fitted (kain would have advantage)
- thermal damage ammo
- t1 weapons (small em, medium gauss)
- t4 LWF fitted

Arbalest:
~4s cycletime
~185 damage (resists included)
~100% chance to hit
~1040 hitpoints

Kain:
~5s cycletime
~340 damage (resists included)
~47% chance to hit
~1975 HP

1. Kain has 3 more open slots (2x head, 1x leg) to shift the advatage towards itself
2. Kain is probably faster with the same equipment
3. Kain has 90% more base hitpoints
4. Kain has 25% more range (both, optimal and falloff)
5. Kain can kill arbalest with 3 (18s) salvos if they hit, maximum 6 (30s)
- Arbalest can kill Kain with 11 salvos (44s)
6. Higher extension lvl to lower the hit dispersion of the Kain will increase its effectivity even more
7. Long range EM fitted Kain has more then twice the range of the arbalest, and can sniper it down, with 5 (best) to 10 (worst) salvos.

Relevant skills to 5? The mech has 5 ranks of basic magnetostatics and 5 advanced, the arbey has 0 ranks of advanced megnetostatics, the mech has 4 ranks of basic robot control and 5 in advanced, the arbey has 0 in advanced, the mech has 5 ranks in precision, the arbey has 0.

1. Yep, throw vastly more nic and EP at a problem than your opponent and you get an advantage, given the investment it shouldn't be so slight.

2. Nope, and slap T2's on the assault (for far less than T1's on the mech) and you will fly by comparison

3. Yep, and I have 10,000,000% more hit points than mosquitoes but if you can't hit them they eat you alive until you retreat or die a needlessly long drawn out death death

4. Yep, 25% of 120 is 30m. 30m is nothing especially after accounting for differences in speed

5. Nope, Look at your numbers again. 
Chance to land 3 full salvo's 1/100th of 1% - play the lotto much?
Number of volleys to kill
47% * 340 = 159.8
1040 / 159.8 = 6.5
That is 6.5 volleys on average NOT 6 maximum and when your success rate is 47% there is a lot of room for variance.

See note on skills above, then look at the market - at present
average cost of kain 3 @ 6.3m (range 6m-6.5m)
Arbeys 15 available for under 1.1m
then add fittings
grab 2 friends buy arbeys equip them, blow all 3 up without insurance then buy 3 new arbeys and equipment them again burn a kain down in 3.6 seconds (1975 / (185*3)), blow up your arbeys again.  Your now equal in terms of nic invested... who has the advantage?

Consider this... by myself with 6 arbeys in my locker I can zerg a mech until statistical variance swings in my favor and it mostly misses me 10 times in a row (more likely than not given a 47% chance to hit). Ohh, and I'm faster so if variance is not in my favor I can run away, rep and try again without any losses.  Assault bot wins.

6. See point #1

7. You couldn't average better than 6.5 volleys before, now your going to lower your DPS and take out the arbey in 5? Your dreaming.  Arbey is still faster/cheaper and still controls the terms of engagement. 

I'll agree with you on one point, fitting anything other than long range EM is pure Kain suicide but since the OP kicked off with Gauss (10m dispersion) thats what I've been sticking to for this discussion. Truth is that things never get much better even with Lasers which do the most DPS to smaller bots especially after accounting for their bonus to crit.

"You're living in a parallel universe." ~Syndic

16 (edited by Ember 2011-01-16 19:16:09)

Re: Precision Firing

Annihilator wrote:

any change of precision firing or assault size would mean no role for assaults to fill in in the future.

Assaults hunt other assaults and light/light ewar that can swarm/plague the larger bots, mechs hunt mechs and assaults that can swarm/plague the heavies, heavies hunt heavies and mechs... a progression with overlap.

Annihilator wrote:

5 assault bots for the price of a single mech

thas also 4 subscriptions more necessary to field that advantage.

Aye 4 subs 4 friends, membership in any corp larger than 4 people... really only need one other person, any more is overkill really, but I don't even need the help. The medium EM are so sloppily all over the place with damage output and I'm faster/cheaper in the assault bot.  I can just keep trying until luck swings in my favor... which it will before I've invested as much as the mech pilot.  Ohh and I don't need half the EP either.

Cost/benefit shouldn't be a foreign concept for anyone with references to zerg in their signature.

"You're living in a parallel universe." ~Syndic

17 (edited by Lyghtcrye 2011-01-17 01:30:37)

Re: Precision Firing

You are clearly using the wrong weapons sir, medium EMguns > medium gauss guns.

Really the problem is that the short range medium weapons just... suck. The long range ones are much better all around.

And you are right, the cost benifit in nic favors assaults, and that is intended to make you want to have more people. Basically the lower cost effectiveness of mechs puts a NIC value on teamwork.

Re: Precision Firing

If a mech would cost just a few bucks more then an assault - and having the same effectivity as now - why would anyone want to specialize in assaults?

The game is only 3 month old now, noone has the extension high enough to field a heavy mech with all its power. when those heavys are there, assaults are just cannon-fodder, and the forum trolls will start to cry that hevys are to expensive, and other that they are to powerfull (especially the seth)

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Precision Firing

Ember wrote:

Consider this... by myself with 6 arbeys in my locker I can zerg

Did you seriously just define a "1 man" zerg?

Re: Precision Firing

last comment then I'll leave it alone.

@Lyghtcrye - agreed, Gauss are garbage, but that was how the OP opened with, I'd rather take the EM Guns and if working at closer range I can swap in Composite Slugs (halves the range, but raises the damage providing near Gauss DPS over a wider range of damage types with superior dispersion).  Anyway, even best case scenario lasers/missiles experience the same problems albeit to a lesser degree.


In general -
Natural progression among damage dealing bots is:
light-->assault-->mech-->heavy

I don't think anyone would argue that an assault will own a light.
I expect that a heavy will own a mech.
but, the mech is nowhere as effective at down hunting a class as it's counterparts the assault and heavy.

There are many reasons to not allow any class to effectively hunt down two classes ie mech vs light or heavy vs assault/light.  Newer players would get clobbered and have no role to fill, those who just plain prefer running in smaller bots would have the same problem, etc etc.  I don't want to take away the utility of smaller bots.  Besides a larger force should be able to up hunt multiple classes depending on their numbers advantage.

******************
My main gripe is this
******************

As things are now, the mech class has no one to bully and that puts them at a relative disadvantage to assaults, heavies, and even entry level lights that can bully drones (I actually prefer a Yagel to a Kain for PvE'ing 3rd star assault bots though the Arbey is best)

Not having anyone to bully limits the mechs role significantly in ways that other bots are not, and they become nearly obsolete as soon as you can jump into a heavy... the same can not be said for the light bot which has significant terrain advantages over the assault and boasts a hot size of 3 while doing nearly 80% of the damage and requiring identical skills

"You're living in a parallel universe." ~Syndic