Re: Missiles, longest range weapon in Perpetuum? Falloff can fix this.

Sinister wrote:

Actually that is a point, missiles equivalent of hit disperson extension is so much better than turrets that medium missiles can do 100% damage on light bots. The question is did the devs intend for it to be this way? Seismics gives a 5% decrease in explosion size per level whereas precision firing only does 3% to hit disperson per level. This means most medium missiles will hit for full damage on an assault bot with level 10 seismics.

Even the most accurate laser with level 10 precision firing will still miss assault bots 1 out of 5 times. EM guns will miss even more than that, while missions get to achieve 100% damage per hit.

I would suggest changing the explosion velocity on the largest missiles from 10 to 9 (this makes these missiles better) and lowering the benefit of seismics from 5% to level to 3% per level.

This change is important unless you want medium missiles fired from a level 10 seismics player doing the same damage to assault bots as they do to mechs and up. I thought assault bot was supposed to be classed as a light bot. I don't see how it makes sense for any medium weapon to be able to achieve the exact same damage and accuracy against light bots as they can get against larger bots.

I thought the whole point of the large weapon vs small target idea was to stop light bots being instagib fodder to bigger bots.

Sghouls already mentioned a few of my corrections to your statement. Only "long range seismic" missiles can do 100% damage to assault bots. And they still don't do 100% to actual small bots. Even at level 10 seismics. Med short range ammo (The high damage stuff.) will never hit anything below a mech for more than 4/5 damage.

Also, assaults are NOT small bots. They are assaults, hence the reason they have their own class. requirements, increased surface size, and market tab.

And finnaly, if you make smaller bots be on equal grounds with larger bots, then only idiots would end up using the larger bots costing 20x the price of an assault. At that point you might as well remove the bigger bots. Hell we pretty much pvp exclusively in assaults, (and occasionnaly mechs) because they are so damn good for the price. And when they go boom, noone even cares. I have 22 fully fitted assault bots in hanger for passing in a pvp situation.

At this point, heavy mechs are for pve, and getting destroyed in pvp quickly. And when they o boom, you feel the hurt.

Re: Missiles, longest range weapon in Perpetuum? Falloff can fix this.

It's not about making them on equal ground, which they arn't and won't be. The devs probably didn't intend on medium weapons to do full damage to light bots. Assault bots use small and light gear, so what else could they be?

Anyway, it looks like they'd already changed seismics to 3% per level before I even made this post, but what from was said in help channel, quite a few things will be changing so who knows, missiles may get a few improvements too.

Last edited by Sinister (2010-01-24 12:16:26)

Re: Missiles, longest range weapon in Perpetuum? Falloff can fix this.

missiles need to be able to hit, and do damage, even if the taret has left your range.

Thats first and foremost thing that need to be addet to missiles at the moment.

Re: Missiles, longest range weapon in Perpetuum? Falloff can fix this.

Siddy wrote:

missiles need to be able to hit, and do damage, even if the taret has left your range.

Thats first and foremost thing that need to be addet to missiles at the moment.

That doesn't make sense logically though. I don't know how long it takes a missile to cover 350km, but if it's pretty fast I don't see why they should make illogical changes to the game. If it's too slow they can just make the 350km range missiles a little faster.

Last edited by Sinister (2010-01-24 15:26:39)

Re: Missiles, longest range weapon in Perpetuum? Falloff can fix this.

Sinister wrote:
Siddy wrote:

missiles need to be able to hit, and do damage, even if the taret has left your range.

Thats first and foremost thing that need to be addet to missiles at the moment.

That doesn't make sense logically though. I don't know how long it takes a missile to cover 350km, but if it's pretty fast I don't see why they should make illogical changes to the game. If it's too slow they can just make the 350km range missiles a little faster.


compuer games got nothing to do with logick...

this thing ruins long range combat for missiles.

Re: Missiles, longest range weapon in Perpetuum? Falloff can fix this.

Siddy wrote:
Sinister wrote:
Siddy wrote:

missiles need to be able to hit, and do damage, even if the taret has left your range.

Thats first and foremost thing that need to be addet to missiles at the moment.

That doesn't make sense logically though. I don't know how long it takes a missile to cover 350km, but if it's pretty fast I don't see why they should make illogical changes to the game. If it's too slow they can just make the 350km range missiles a little faster.


compuer games got nothing to do with logick...

this thing ruins long range combat for missiles.

I think you'll find they have everything to do with logic. Not being based on reality is the thought you are looking for.

EVE has it the exact same way. Missiles go the distance set then die out if they fail to reach the target. The trick in perpetuum is to simply make it so missiles get to their target fast enough so that he doesn't get time to travel much distance.

Last edited by Sinister (2010-01-24 19:19:26)

Re: Missiles, longest range weapon in Perpetuum? Falloff can fix this.

In eve, missiles are superiorly most damaging long range wepon.

In here, like many people sed, going 1 meter bryond range, will make damage 0.

That aply to any range missiles.

So if you launch when target is at 320 and the target goes beyond 350

the damage is 0

This is wrong.

In EVE, the missiles will not go inert if target goes out and in they range.
In EVE, the missiles will not will not explode at evert little obstackle in the way.
In EVE, the missiles will not say "target is out of range" if you want to shoot in advance at someone coming at you.

In EVE, the missiles will not... do many stupid thing that missiles will do in perp.

Sho why are you comparing them in first plase?

Got nothing to do with your moon logick, i am shure.

Re: Missiles, longest range weapon in Perpetuum? Falloff can fix this.

Sinister wrote:

EVE has it the exact same way.

Not.
eve has 'self-guided' missiles, perpetuum has 'remote-guided'(target got out of 'guide-range' = no damage).
and eve has quite different mechanics: in most cases if target is too far away for your weapons, you can simply warp out.

ps.
ah, almost forgot, perpetuum missiles can't be remote guided either as they do damage even if launcher is dead.

Re: Missiles, longest range weapon in Perpetuum? Falloff can fix this.

btw, 'logic' in internet-gigantic-robots-game... mad

Last edited by deadok (2010-01-24 20:10:30)

Re: Missiles, longest range weapon in Perpetuum? Falloff can fix this.

Siddy wrote:

In eve, missiles are superiorly most damaging long range wepon.

In here, like many people sed, going 1 meter bryond range, will make damage 0.

That aply to any range missiles.

So if you launch when target is at 320 and the target goes beyond 350

the damage is 0

This is wrong.

In EVE, the missiles will not go inert if target goes out and in they range.
In EVE, the missiles will not will not explode at evert little obstackle in the way.
In EVE, the missiles will not say "target is out of range" if you want to shoot in advance at someone coming at you.

In EVE, the missiles will not... do many stupid thing that missiles will do in perp.

Sho why are you comparing them in first plase?

Got nothing to do with your moon logick, i am shure.

Missiles were never the best DPS in EVE, and for long range fleet fights the majority use turrets.

Re: Missiles, longest range weapon in Perpetuum? Falloff can fix this.

Siddy wrote:

In eve, missiles are superiorly most damaging long range wepon.

In here, like many people sed, going 1 meter bryond range, will make damage 0.

That aply to any range missiles.

So if you launch when target is at 320 and the target goes beyond 350

the damage is 0

This is wrong.

In EVE, the missiles will not go inert if target goes out and in they range.
In EVE, the missiles will not will not explode at evert little obstackle in the way.
In EVE, the missiles will not say "target is out of range" if you want to shoot in advance at someone coming at you.

In EVE, the missiles will not... do many stupid thing that missiles will do in perp.

Sho why are you comparing them in first plase?

Got nothing to do with your moon logick, i am shure.

You say it's wrong, but if this is changed, missiles will gain one of the advantages of a turret, how about they change turrets to use 1 ap/shot
like missiles do, to counter this? No, of course they won't do that. The only weapon that beats them for better range is the best named long range medium laser.

Missiles already have extremely long range, ever thought that maybe the reason for that is to make up for this whole issue? I still don't know how much of an issue it is because I don't know how long it takes a missile to travel 350-450m. It should only take a couple of seconds, then there is no issue.

Last edited by Sinister (2010-01-24 21:13:00)

Re: Missiles, longest range weapon in Perpetuum? Falloff can fix this.

I dont believe that CCP has put enough resources into the "real life physics", where misssles and other weapon  systems just magically go through solid objects like astoroids, stations, and other peoples ships.

In perp, you actually have to think about where your at, and where your going, and once your in a pvp situation you also have to think abot your targets. Secenery and objects get in the way, and you have the ability to use this to your advantage.

Even in eve, missles disappear after x ammount range, or they just "hit" the target and do no damage....

Re: Missiles, longest range weapon in Perpetuum? Falloff can fix this.

Sinister wrote:

Missiles were never the best DPS in EVE, and for long range fleet fights the majority use turrets.

yeah, 427dps from cruise raven < 400dps from 8x tach apoc (and 8 tachs are nearly impossible to fit), right.
notice, that is t1 missiles, not rage's.

everyone use turrets because of 2 reasons:
1) delayed damage
2) easy to avoid damage complitely by warping away.

ps/
apart from uber dps, in eve missiles don't eat cap at all, but still gun-ships prevail in large-scale pvp.

Last edited by deadok (2010-01-24 21:30:12)

Re: Missiles, longest range weapon in Perpetuum? Falloff can fix this.

deadok wrote:
Sinister wrote:

Missiles were never the best DPS in EVE, and for long range fleet fights the majority use turrets.

yeah, 427dps from cruise raven < 400dps from 8x tach apoc (and 8 tachs are nearly impossible to fit), right.
notice, that is t1 missiles, not rage's.

everyone use turrets because of 2 reasons:
1) delayed damage
2) easy to avoid damage complitely by warping away.

Umm

turrets to instant damage, as soon as thers a lock press f keys andboom, damage.

Missles have to travel to their target.

So in theroy, turrets are better because you can come in, hit, and leave before the missles even reach you.

Re: Missiles, longest range weapon in Perpetuum? Falloff can fix this.

1josh13 wrote:

So in theroy, turrets are better because you can come in, hit, and leave before the missles even reach you.

in theory same applies to perpetuum big_smile, yet perp-missiles don't get uber dps, or oh-my-god-farther-then-anyone-can-lock range.

Re: Missiles, longest range weapon in Perpetuum? Falloff can fix this.

Sinister wrote:
Siddy wrote:

In eve, missiles are superiorly most damaging long range wepon.

In here, like many people sed, going 1 meter bryond range, will make damage 0.

That aply to any range missiles.

So if you launch when target is at 320 and the target goes beyond 350

the damage is 0

This is wrong.

In EVE, the missiles will not go inert if target goes out and in they range.
In EVE, the missiles will not will not explode at evert little obstackle in the way.
In EVE, the missiles will not say "target is out of range" if you want to shoot in advance at someone coming at you.

In EVE, the missiles will not... do many stupid thing that missiles will do in perp.

Sho why are you comparing them in first plase?

Got nothing to do with your moon logick, i am shure.

Missiles were never the best DPS in EVE, and for long range fleet fights the majority use turrets.

best DPS long range dont mean best DPS or most practical DPS for fleet fights, where 12312431 people one shot other people so missiles bearly clear launch tubes.

but it dony contradickt the fact that turrets are not best long range dps, missiles are.

and thus used by majority of PVE community.


In perp, missiles have 3 advantages over turrets.

Constant DPS in range (asume all max skilled) you dont need to fear misses on any targets.
By constant damage i mean that even at small target, you do atleast some damage instead of clear miss.

Hig alpha, offsetted by long cycles.

Take lol no cap worth mentioning.

Disadvantage is that they do less DPS, get easily obstruckted by terrain and thanks to current game code, lose damage compleetly if enemy even so much as peak outside max range.

Last edited by Siddy (2010-01-24 22:47:01)

Re: Missiles, longest range weapon in Perpetuum? Falloff can fix this.

1josh13 wrote:

I dont believe that CCP has put enough resources into the "real life physics", where misssles and other weapon  systems just magically go through solid objects like astoroids, stations, and other peoples ships.

oh EVE used to be much more "real" in missile aspect.

You are just newfag in EVE and dont know the missiles ability to hit anything in they path...

Missilles used to hit

Asteroids, stations, non targeted players that were in way, pods right after ships assplodet (yes, autopod feature lol), gates, sentries and concord.... lol

Shall i go on? If you by now havent figured out why missiles are in now like thye are, may i also remind that missiles used to do splas damage, torps qite a significant.

Try to use missiles now, when your own torps killed half of your own DPS lol
The best example was to keep alt shuttle right at your ship to get that "summon concord" effect if anyone deared use missiles.

Altho missiles were used still, allot, mainly contributed by the fact that 500k SP raven out preformed 12m SP megathron  lol

So they were noob mobiles and pirate gankkships in low/null sec.
Back then no one used them for PVE due the fact one missile cost nearly 2k pop big_smile

Last edited by Siddy (2010-01-24 22:57:19)

Re: Missiles, longest range weapon in Perpetuum? Falloff can fix this.

Sorry to interrupt, but could we drop the "eve this, eve that" and discuss balancing in this game? roll

"I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." -- Bill Cosby

Re: Missiles, longest range weapon in Perpetuum? Falloff can fix this.

0#Fix missiles to do damage if fired in range and taget moved out range.

1#Remove missiles damage/hit surface. Missiles shuld do max damage regardles what they hit, you are ripping off EVE here hmm

2#Make missile guidance failure base on the hit surface/missiles targeting capability.
Example: Target 8m, Missile track 10 =  (8/10)*100%=80% chanse that missile will find its home.

3# Rebalance the missiles "tracking" numbers to represent the classes beter.

4# Add targetpainters, that works similar to tracking modules in EV...*cough* Perpetuum.(yes your tracking modules are identical to EVE roll)
In other words, increase targets size.
Make it work only for missiles, turrets dont benefit from its effect.
Set its effective painting range to 150 and below.

5# special addition, make bigger launcers able to fire missiles that are below its class.
IE medium launcers shooting small missiles.

6# Reverse missiles "hitting" to short range missiles > long range missiles. Rigt now all wepons favor long range over short because they hit beter on all distances. It whuld make sence, if you want to rationalise it.
Short range missiles can be wire guidet like TOW missiles, that can be virtualy guidet by human/computer interface to fly trought open tank hatch (seen them back in army cool )

7# Add ultra long range, Hig damage (50% more DPS than ballisticks) missiles, that have minimal distance of 150m, below this range they do no damage, and total range to 500+m.
Make them totally suck in "tracking"
It will take one or more target painters to get reasonable hit rate on heay mech.
And since you cant paint anythig over 150m, this removes ability to use them solo on anything smaller than a DEATHSTAR. Creating utility to missile bots in gang as a true long range support wepon.

You might want to add spesial launcer to said missiles, this whuld convert any mech using them to support role and be very vournable alone, in close range or without Targetpainter supprt

now that you got me rilled, im gona re invent whole missile system, blame yourself!

Last edited by Siddy (2010-01-24 23:49:01)

Re: Missiles, longest range weapon in Perpetuum? Falloff can fix this.

erhm.
just compared medium compact missiles vs medium ac.
mad

ps/
could i ask to change missile slots on tyrranos to turrets? don't even need any bonuses...

Last edited by deadok (2010-01-24 23:54:18)

Re: Missiles, longest range weapon in Perpetuum? Falloff can fix this.

Oh yeah, the AC's preform beter than lasers, too big_smile

guess what im fitting on artemis and will be fitting on seth lol

you need hig skills before missiles start to shine on the tyranos, and then it will be total monster.

The thing is best of mech out there, its more like Heavy mech 0.5 than a mech.

You can deprive core from anything down assault bot in two go in it and still have respektable DPS.

Or get it maxed out on DPS and surpassing even kain in DPS. At hig lvls ofcorse.

Is cheaper than gropho and preforms DPS vice allmost as well, plus it will have more core at the end due to rechanrge bonus.

Re: Missiles, longest range weapon in Perpetuum? Falloff can fix this.

I think most of the posts here are not necessary and just serve to confuse the matter.

Missiles just need to travel fast enough that trying to out-run them wouldn't even be an option. Have the ballistic missiles travel 2.5x faster than compact. If 350km long missiles can travel 350km in 2 seconds then trying to outrun the missiles will barely even give any benefit and and require a lot of thought to do. By time you even realise the missiles have been firing they are already going to be hitting you.

Last edited by Sinister (2010-01-25 00:07:23)

Re: Missiles, longest range weapon in Perpetuum? Falloff can fix this.

Sinister wrote:

I think most of the posts here are not necessary and just serve to confuse the matter.

Missiles just need to travel fast enough that trying to out-run them wouldn't even be an option. Have the ballistic missiles travel 2.5x faster than compact. If 350km long missiles can travel 350km in 2 seconds then trying to outrun the missiles will barely even give any benefit and and require a lot of thought to do. By time you even realise the missiles have been firing they are already going to be hitting you.


But then you will loose all the "WSHOOOSH BLING" the visual team has workked so hard

lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol


Or did you run out that Trolling steam now?

Last edited by Siddy (2010-01-25 00:09:40)

Re: Missiles, longest range weapon in Perpetuum? Falloff can fix this.

sinister - just one little advise:

all ranges in Perpetuum are mesured in meters, not kilometers. 1km is your radar-range... missiles with 350km range could fire from island to island...

Re: Missiles, longest range weapon in Perpetuum? Falloff can fix this.

Bunkerkind Anni wrote:

sinister - just one little advise:

all ranges in Perpetuum are mesured in meters, not kilometers. 1km is your radar-range... missiles with 350km range could fire from island to island...

No difference made, you know what I mean. I'm used to a game where the measurement is in km and typing km is something I am used to.