Re: Missiles, longest range weapon in Perpetuum? Falloff can fix this.

In my opinion, falloff damage must remain unchanged ...
And i really dont agree with the base statment it is useless.
You do less damage, sure, but you can still hit your target.
In reality, every ammo loses impact strenght with distance increasing.
This isnt as short as 300m with heavy vehicles guns, more like 1km maybe ... but there is optimal/falloff range considerations.

For missiles, i didnt know they will do 0 damage if the target goes out of the optimal range between firing and hit.
This could (should?) certainly be considered as a bug?
Or the missiles should be abble to explode automatically when they reach their optimal range ... then maybe doing small aoe damage, or just falling and exploding on the ground ... well like real missiles should do, right??

Re: Missiles, longest range weapon in Perpetuum? Falloff can fix this.

Bambi wrote:

For missiles, i didnt know they will do 0 damage if the target goes out of the optimal range between firing and hit.

It much worse, tbh.
Light missile speed is approx. 75m/s. Therefore light ew bots can be fitted to be almost invincible (don't know about medium missiles, can't use them yet).
And anyone who can outrun the missile user, can try to kite him.

ps.
If target stays still and *missile user* runs out of optimal range, missiles will do 0 damage, again.

Last edited by deadok (2010-01-21 16:54:27)

Re: Missiles, longest range weapon in Perpetuum? Falloff can fix this.

i doubht any bot runs 271km/h

that is the speed you need to outrun something that goes 75m/s

Re: Missiles, longest range weapon in Perpetuum? Falloff can fix this.

Siddy wrote:

i doubht any bot runs 271km/h

that is the speed you need to outrun something that goes 75m/s

You don't have to. You just have to stay at a distance from said missile user, and hop out of range before the missiles reach you. I use this to farm missile bots solo very effectively, without needing to rep constantly. It's also why using long range med. missiles in pvp is almost a must. (Unless the targets are idiots, or poorly fitted.) And you also need to fit wapishes with at least 1 mass reducer to effectively use it in pvp against experienced opponents..

Last edited by Blackomen (2010-01-21 23:22:01)

Re: Missiles, longest range weapon in Perpetuum? Falloff can fix this.

Siddy wrote:

i doubht any bot runs 271km/h
that is the speed you need to outrun something that goes 75m/s

Oops, my bad.

Kiting part is true, anyway.

Last edited by deadok (2010-01-21 23:55:21)

Re: Missiles, longest range weapon in Perpetuum? Falloff can fix this.

Missiles should be versatile, and they should have long and short ranges and they should have massive alpha and long cycle times. I think there just needs to be counter measures, something eve has never had (defenders suck).

Flares or chafs would be totally awesome imo. It should be a module you turn on that fires automatically, any time it detects an incoming missile, and it should require some form of "charge", but it shouldn't have a massive reload time. With skills it should increase the chance of missile "misfires" , though graphically it would be much cooler to see a bot strafing and have the flares fire out and the missile veer off course.

With perfect skills against a perfect skill missile bot (since you should have skill "missile deception" for the defender and "missile reception" for the attacker, one increase the chance of deceiving a missile and the other increase the lock strength of a fired missile reducing the flares ability to deceive), I would say damage mitigation should be 60-75%, and with that I would then lobby for increasing the the alpha and range of missiles even further.

Re: Missiles, longest range weapon in Perpetuum? Falloff can fix this.

Well, this definitly add some complexity to the game, but sounds quite fun smile
Flaring missiles, yes it sounds fun smile
Btw, it means one more module (certainly a weapon slot) with some new extensions to fit it and increase its perfs ...
Finally not that good??

Then, we should be abble to avoid lasers, bullets and slugs too (active avoidance)

Re: Missiles, longest range weapon in Perpetuum? Falloff can fix this.

Blackomen wrote:
Siddy wrote:

i doubht any bot runs 271km/h

that is the speed you need to outrun something that goes 75m/s

You don't have to. You just have to stay at a distance from said missile user, and hop out of range before the missiles reach you. I use this to farm missile bots solo very effectively, without needing to rep constantly. It's also why using long range med. missiles in pvp is almost a must. (Unless the targets are idiots, or poorly fitted.) And you also need to fit wapishes with at least 1 mass reducer to effectively use it in pvp against experienced opponents..


you realise that if enemy, take for example, long range laser mech, is keeping out of your long range missiles.

He is himself  over 50% in his falloff.

This means he do virtualy no damage at all.

You can argue that he still does damage, some damage.

But at that range enemy will just walk away if he cant catch you.


Also please, please keep out hypotetical 1v1 situation out of the equation.

The missile bots are most valued DPS assets in gang, due the very fact they are all araund wepons. They hit long, they hot short, they hit big, they hit small.

The utility of the gropho/tyranos/waspish is unmached.

Gropho/tyranos is only mech in game that can waste assault/light bots in countted seconds.

Rail and even lasers will have flipping hard time hit them well enought to scare them away.

This means that any EW bot that is ment to tackle is getting hard over 9000 times more hard time against pelistial than other 2 races.

Last edited by Siddy (2010-01-22 14:34:09)

Re: Missiles, longest range weapon in Perpetuum? Falloff can fix this.

Siddy wrote:

But at that range enemy will just walk away if he cant catch you.

oh yeah, considering that you should have higher speed to kite missile boat, you'll never catch him, sure

Also please, please keep out hypotetical 1v1 situation out of the equation.

allrighty, 2 baphomets vs baphomet&waspish. kite waspish and kill whoever is closer. even if second will run away it is still 1:0 (atleast you have opportunity to do so)

pvp is not 'aproach-fire' thing, it all about using your advantages and not giving adversary to use his own. you won't say that possibility to kite missile bot not an advantage, would you?

now, reread first post in this topic.

Last edited by deadok (2010-01-22 15:48:01)

Re: Missiles, longest range weapon in Perpetuum? Falloff can fix this.

you have done too much PVE if you think your finess will survive the envoirment of PVP envounter.

in PVP it  goes like this > Tackle > primary > kill as fast as possible > new primary tacked

rince and repeat.

EW bots try to distract enemy DPS as much as possible, but they key feature is to drop enemy fast as possible.

In this, hig alpha is paramount.

And yes im talking abaut the clusterfucks of 10 vs 10 to 50 vs 50  because that is what is ahead of us when this goes live and have anykind of sucksess.

And as i sed before in this post, my problem is not with the range of missiles nor the damage.

Its the ability to pawn the small shit with unparallel sucksess and the super utility the  misile bots enjoys right now.

Issues, real issues are:

Long and short range wepons in one package.

Slaughter small shit. There is diferences on the reduced damage of missiles and NO damage of missed turrets.

Missile bots get lol utility that they can use for exstra DPS or enery warfere.
The unbonused missiles other bots gets are nothing to the energy warefere missilebots enjoy.

Last edited by Siddy (2010-01-22 15:50:31)

Re: Missiles, longest range weapon in Perpetuum? Falloff can fix this.

blah, then there should be no problem in making missiles always hit target, if it was launched while target was in optimal, right?

Re: Missiles, longest range weapon in Perpetuum? Falloff can fix this.

deadok wrote:

blah, then there should be no problem in making missiles always hit target, if it was launched while target was in optimal, right?


i got no problem with this.

I find it odd that its not that way.

Re: Missiles, longest range weapon in Perpetuum? Falloff can fix this.

Maybe they are here some "realistic" considerations.
Propelled ammos do have a real max range.

First case, they have enough fuel to travel 500m, not more, then they fall down and explode on the floor
Second case, they have enough fuel, but have some kind of "auto-detonation" system that will make the ammo explode when optimal range is reached.

So, imho, missiles should fall and explode on the floor when they reach their max range.
Thus, causing maybe some area damage smile

Re: Missiles, longest range weapon in Perpetuum? Falloff can fix this.

Bambi wrote:

So, imho, missiles should fall and explode on the floor when they reach their max range.
Thus, causing maybe some area damage smile

I would guess its pain to implement in game with all agro and stuff big_smile

Re: Missiles, longest range weapon in Perpetuum? Falloff can fix this.

Not sure aggro can be a problem, as there doesnt seem to be any aggro system in the game ... or i never noticed it hmm
npc ia is quite ... well, basic?
I think the problem come from the difficulty to code this, and the amount of data added to client/server communication?

Re: Missiles, longest range weapon in Perpetuum? Falloff can fix this.

pvp much? ._.

Re: Missiles, longest range weapon in Perpetuum? Falloff can fix this.

Siddy wrote:

you realise that if enemy, take for example, long range laser mech, is keeping out of your long range missiles.

He is himself  over 50% in his falloff.

This means he do virtualy no damage at all.

Why in god's name would said laser "mech" be trying to outrange long range missiles? Long range missiles do the lowest damage of any med. weapon in the game. I don't understand why you people can't get it into your head that the only missiles doing WTF alpha damage, are "Very short range med seismic missiles." The laser bot would only have a problem with this scenario because he is naturally weak vs. missiles. A EM bot would be laughing all the way back to base with the dead missile bot's head under his arm.

Siddy wrote:

You can argue that he still does damage, some damage.

Uh... yeah. I'd be a complete idiot not to argue that. You act as if that doesn't matter. One involves slowly dieing, the other involves invulnerability. I'd say that matters a hell of a lot.

Siddy wrote:

But at that range enemy will just walk away if he cant catch you.

If that's the case, then so be it. Fit better or level up your navigation skill. Speed is life in pvp. It allows you to dictate the location and time of engagement.

Siddy wrote:

Also please, please keep out hypotetical 1v1 situation out of the equation.

I absolutely agree, would you stop constantly referring to missile vs. laser bots in every one of your examples please. That fight will always be one sided.

Siddy wrote:

The missile bots are most valued DPS assets in gang, due the very fact they are all araund wepons. They hit long, they hot short, they hit big, they hit small.

No real argument here, that's the quality that makes many of us love them, they are versatile. They kill smaller stuff well, and bigger stuff not as well as other med. weapons. You need a wepon like this to keep everyone from just using assault bots in pvp. (Even though most of us do anyway.)

Siddy wrote:

The utility of the gropho/tyranos/waspish is unmached.

I'll agree on the tyrannos. The dev's need to allow other mechs to also use those two other torso slots for more than just guns. As for the waspish and gropho, your wrong. They seem just as equally useful as the rest. They are simply a different role.

Siddy wrote:

Gropho/tyranos is only mech in game that can waste assault/light bots in countted seconds.

Once again... that's their freaking role. And you can only waste small bots in seconds if said bots get into a 150m (200m at level 10 skills) range so you can hit them with the high damage seismic missiles. With med. long range missiles, they still require many hits. And only do 50% more dps than a assault bot hitting said small bot, it's just at a longer range. And as I said, it's the damn purpose of missiles. Not to mention the small bot should have no problem getting away unless someone is tackling him.

Siddy wrote:

Rail and even lasers will have flipping hard time hit them well enought to scare them away.

Not really, at least untill they get this new tracking speed/min falloff thing ironed out. You can hit assault bots 4 out of 5 times with med lasers. And with absolutely no hit dispersion skills trained. Will you miss? Of course. And you'll hit said bot for FULL DAMAGE unlike missiles. A lucky shot from med EM guns can one volley small bots, and two volley assaults.

Siddy wrote:

This means that any EW bot that is ment to tackle is getting hard over 9000 times more hard time against pelistial than other 2 races.

Getting tired of saying this... Thats their purpose. Anti-small bot swarm weapon. Otherwise we'd all be using assaults. They would wipe the floor with mechs/heavy mechs otherwise.

Re: Missiles, longest range weapon in Perpetuum? Falloff can fix this.

i dont know what went in your head misquoting my post, but i was referring to laserbots because i was ansering man that sed laserbots will poon poon missile bot.

Regardless, missiles need some fix themselfs in some small "features"

i had not yet had my coffee to plow trought your quote mess, some of your point stands, some of them not.

The time will tell you what.

Re: Missiles, longest range weapon in Perpetuum? Falloff can fix this.

Blackomen wrote:
Siddy wrote:

you realise that if enemy, take for example, long range laser mech, is keeping out of your long range missiles.

He is himself  over 50% in his falloff.

This means he do virtualy no damage at all.

Why in god's name would said laser "mech" be trying to outrange long range missiles? Long range missiles do the lowest damage of any med. weapon in the game. I don't understand why you people can't get it into your head that the only missiles doing WTF alpha damage, are "Very short range med seismic missiles." The laser bot would only have a problem with this scenario because he is naturally weak vs. missiles. A EM bot would be laughing all the way back to base with the dead missile bot's head under his arm.

Siddy wrote:

You can argue that he still does damage, some damage.

Uh... yeah. I'd be a complete idiot not to argue that. You act as if that doesn't matter. One involves slowly dieing, the other involves invulnerability. I'd say that matters a hell of a lot.

Siddy wrote:

But at that range enemy will just walk away if he cant catch you.

If that's the case, then so be it. Fit better or level up your navigation skill. Speed is life in pvp. It allows you to dictate the location and time of engagement.

Siddy wrote:

Also please, please keep out hypotetical 1v1 situation out of the equation.

I absolutely agree, would you stop constantly referring to missile vs. laser bots in every one of your examples please. That fight will always be one sided.

Siddy wrote:

The missile bots are most valued DPS assets in gang, due the very fact they are all araund wepons. They hit long, they hot short, they hit big, they hit small.

No real argument here, that's the quality that makes many of us love them, they are versatile. They kill smaller stuff well, and bigger stuff not as well as other med. weapons. You need a wepon like this to keep everyone from just using assault bots in pvp. (Even though most of us do anyway.)

Siddy wrote:

The utility of the gropho/tyranos/waspish is unmached.

I'll agree on the tyrannos. The dev's need to allow other mechs to also use those two other torso slots for more than just guns. As for the waspish and gropho, your wrong. They seem just as equally useful as the rest. They are simply a different role.

Siddy wrote:

Gropho/tyranos is only mech in game that can waste assault/light bots in countted seconds.

Once again... that's their freaking role. And you can only waste small bots in seconds if said bots get into a 150m (200m at level 10 skills) range so you can hit them with the high damage seismic missiles. With med. long range missiles, they still require many hits. And only do 50% more dps than a assault bot hitting said small bot, it's just at a longer range. And as I said, it's the damn purpose of missiles. Not to mention the small bot should have no problem getting away unless someone is tackling him.

Siddy wrote:

Rail and even lasers will have flipping hard time hit them well enought to scare them away.

Not really, at least untill they get this new tracking speed/min falloff thing ironed out. You can hit assault bots 4 out of 5 times with med lasers. And with absolutely no hit dispersion skills trained. Will you miss? Of course. And you'll hit said bot for FULL DAMAGE unlike missiles. A lucky shot from med EM guns can one volley small bots, and two volley assaults.

Siddy wrote:

This means that any EW bot that is ment to tackle is getting hard over 9000 times more hard time against pelistial than other 2 races.

Getting tired of saying this... Thats their purpose. Anti-small bot swarm weapon. Otherwise we'd all be using assaults. They would wipe the floor with mechs/heavy mechs otherwise.

Last couple of points are wrong. Medium lasers have 8 and 9 hit dispersons. You won't hit assault bots with a 4 surface size 4/5 hits with no skills, you would need to be using the 8 hit disperson weapon with maxed extensions to achieve this.

Medium long range missiles can hit for full damage on assault bots, the start explosion size of 8 (7 for sonic) can be reduced from 8 to 4 with max extensions.

Re: Missiles, longest range weapon in Perpetuum? Falloff can fix this.

Actually that is a point, missiles equivalent of hit disperson extension is so much better than turrets that medium missiles can do 100% damage on light bots. The question is did the devs intend for it to be this way? Seismics gives a 5% decrease in explosion size per level whereas precision firing only does 3% to hit disperson per level. This means most medium missiles will hit for full damage on an assault bot with level 10 seismics.

Even the most accurate laser with level 10 precision firing will still miss assault bots 1 out of 5 times. EM guns will miss even more than that, while missions get to achieve 100% damage per hit.

I would suggest changing the explosion velocity on the largest missiles from 10 to 9 (this makes these missiles better) and lowering the benefit of seismics from 5% to level to 3% per level.

This change is important unless you want medium missiles fired from a level 10 seismics player doing the same damage to assault bots as they do to mechs and up. I thought assault bot was supposed to be classed as a light bot. I don't see how it makes sense for any medium weapon to be able to achieve the exact same damage and accuracy against light bots as they can get against larger bots.

I thought the whole point of the large weapon vs small target idea was to stop light bots being instagib fodder to bigger bots.

Last edited by Sinister (2010-01-23 13:55:25)

Re: Missiles, longest range weapon in Perpetuum? Falloff can fix this.

1. only ballistic missiles could give 100% damage on assault robots.
2. ballistic missiles have 1/2 of alfa-damage.
3. all missiles have additional «guidance fail».

So Sinister suggests to nerf missile to give assault bot to live, but don't care that pelistal should use additional EP to reach 10 level seismic and 10 lvl of missile guidance.

Then may be fair to nerf missiles AND lower EP price for these missile skills?

Re: Missiles, longest range weapon in Perpetuum? Falloff can fix this.

sGhouLs wrote:

1. only ballistic missiles could give 100% damage on assault robots.
2. ballistic missiles have 1/2 of alfa-damage.
3. all missiles have additional «guidance fail».

So Sinister suggests to nerf missile to give assault bot to live, but don't care that pelistal should use additional EP to reach 10 level seismic and 10 lvl of missile guidance.

Then may be fair to nerf missiles AND lower EP price for these missile skills?

Seismics is already a rank 3 skill, the same as precision firing. Only seismics improves hit vs smaller bots by 5% per level and precision firing only improves it 3%. Seismics doesn't need to cost less EP, but it does need to be changed to 3% per level. That, or change precision firing to 5% per level.

Last edited by Sinister (2010-01-23 20:56:59)

Re: Missiles, longest range weapon in Perpetuum? Falloff can fix this.

something i've read here many times have been comments about falloff and its effectiveness.

Sinister, when you did you falloff damage tests - did you notice anything wrong about the numbers? especially the optimal range of everything is less then the displayed numbers?

Re: Missiles, longest range weapon in Perpetuum? Falloff can fix this.

Bunkerkind Anni wrote:

something i've read here many times have been comments about falloff and its effectiveness.

Sinister, when you did you falloff damage tests - did you notice anything wrong about the numbers? especially the optimal range of everything is less then the displayed numbers?

I haven't really done any focused testing with falloff, I just know from experience in playing that if for example I had 150km optimal range, and 65km faloff. I can at best keep 160km from my target and still do acceptable damage, if it means that I don't get hit. Any further than than 160km though and the damage just gets reduced so much that you may aswell turn off your guns and save ammo/ap.

This means that 10km of my 65km falloff is useless, the other 55km is worthless.

Last edited by Sinister (2010-01-23 22:31:12)

Re: Missiles, longest range weapon in Perpetuum? Falloff can fix this.

1% in falloff = 1% dmg reduction