1

(21 replies, posted in General discussion)

Celebro wrote:

Yes, we could all agree that travel is rather dull, but on the other hand, it is a necessary evil.

Ever since I started shortly after the game came out, people have been opposed to fixing the transportation clusterf*ck on the grounds that it was a "necessary evil."

More people have left this game after trying it because of that "necessary evil" than any other single element in this game.  The choice is to keep it and watch the game continue to wither away, or fix it.  Simple as that.

I'm not going to argue the point as I'm highly unlikely to change your mind (google "confirmation bias"), it's a minor problem, and as even minor problems go, it's so minor in comparison to other minor problems (having the kernel research option next to the destroy option with similar pop-ups,  inability to lock items so they can't be recycled, etc) that it's a waste of my time.  But I do want to make two points.

1)  My assumptions are not "bad" assumptions.  They are simply not the assumptions you wanted or expected players to make.  If players always did things the way a dev team wanted or expected, then there would never be such a thing as exploits.  So, just maybe, if a player suggests something is not clear or a problem, you should seriously consider the possibility that it is.

2) Your use of the term "bad" implies a certain arrogance which isn't terribly flattering to you.

DEV Zoom wrote:
Calio wrote:

True.  But, if you go to extensions panel, click on the "I" for optimized engineering and then click on what modules are included, you will see both listed.

Which localization is that? In English the extension info points to this help page, where sensor amp and signal detector are clearly listed under the electronic equipment section.

Yes, but in the extension info the engineering equipment link lists both engineering AND electronic modules and gives the distinct impression that BOTH are included, particularly because there is no seperate electronic extension (and since both are listed, the assumption is that in this particular case engineering covers both)

Zortarg Calltar wrote:

they are both electronics not engineering

True.  But, if you go to extensions panel, click on the "I" for optimized engineering and then click on what modules are included, you will see both listed.  So, at least according to the game's own info, the modules should be getting the bonuses.  One or the other is wrong.  Either the extension should give the bonuses as per the info for it, or the info needs to be corrected (and I wasted a few k worth of EP).  Can't have it both ways.

I have optimizwed engineering trained to lev 8. The unmodified cpu use for a T4 sensor amp is 19 and the unmodified cpu use for a T4 signal detector is 100.  When I equip them they do not reduce to the modified amount. They remain 19 & 100 respectively.  Both are listed under engineering modules in the information link of the extension and should therefore get the extension bonus but don't.

Tux wrote:

The islands feeling small is a contradiction to travel time being to long in your #3 argument, I think the islands would feel much bigger is there few fewer tele ports on them but then travel times would be increased ... its impossible to achieve both. At least you dont see all the players on island in vacinity chat as soon as you inter the island right ? smile

you're right about vicinity chat wink and I admit, I haven't played in over a year (just logging in to add to skills), so I'm not fully aware of what's changed.

But you misunderstood what I meant by "feels small."  I meant that it feels like you can't hide anywhere.  One person with an amped scanner can see you from half way across the island (OK, that's a bit of an exaggeration - but it FEELS that way).  The truth is I'd prefer vicinity chat (i.e., you know someone is there, you just don't know where) as long as people actually had to search for me in order to actually find me and there were places I could go to (safe spots) where they would have trouble finding me.  An alternative would be a cloak that would require them to be very close before they could spot me (i.e., if I saw someone coming I could run and stay out of spotting range unless it was a coordinated search or a very skilled player).

I’ve dropped back in periodically over the past year to see how PO was doing (Thank you AC for listening to my suggestion a year ago and implementing ICEs), and while the research changes sound promising, too many other things look to remain the same in the future.

Steam is Perpetuum’s best (and maybe last) real chance to finally get some traction and grow instead of shrink.  The problem has never been attracting new players; the trouble has always been keeping them and at that PO has failed miserably.  I have the highest respect for what AC has accomplished technically.  It awes me that a group of 8 guys, with no backing to speak of, can accomplish as much as they have.  But, while they are clearly very good at making a game, they also clearly don’t understand what makes a game very good.  There are lots of little things they did wrong, which in and of themselves wouldn’t have driven people away.  But there are a few big things they got seriously wrong and these need to be fixed ASAP if AC expects to keep the people that Steam brings in (and avoid a repeat of the influx-followed-by-exodus from EVE 2 years ago).  Not all of them will be easy to fix, but most, if not all, need to be if PO is to succeed.

What makes me worth listening to, as opposed to the dozens of other voices each making different suggestions, most at odds with each other?  I’ve been playing mmorpg’s for 15 years and I’ve been studying/analyzing them for equally long – I can’t help it, I study/analyze all kinds of odd things besides my specialization because I’m an academic. It’s what I do with my life. I study things and try to understand them.

So here are my constructive criticisms:

1) Never, ever, ever, EVER prevent a player from advancing their character and PO does just that.

An MMORPG is about the journey, not the destination.  Character development is everything.  Once character development can no longer be achieved, the player leaves because the game is over.  In a skill based sandbox with no cap (level or otherwise), the journey may slow down but it theoretically never ends.  Even in games with level caps, raiding for ever better gear keeps advancement going past the cap.

On this score AC screwed up the mission system (and its real reward – faction standing), by forcing players to go into pvp zones in order to advance.  The rewards for greater risk should be easier, faster, or better rewards, but never anything that can’t be gotten by a risk-averse player some other way (as from the market, by paying someone who took the risk to get it).  By structuring missions so that there is a standing cap by mission level players who choose not to pvp (e.g., someone who prefers to manufacture) hit a lower hard cap to standing that compounds their disadvantage from using lower efficiency facilities.  They usually don’t even wait to hit the cap.  They tend to leave because they’re discouraged as soon as they understand it’s there.  Yes, the actual effect of the standing difference is minor, but that misses the point (it’s a psychological issue).  Perp prevents them from advancing.  EVE got this right. Perp got it wrong.  In EVE one can grind out max standing doing lower level missions. In Perp one can’t.  There is no good reason why someone who is foolish enough to try shouldn’t be able to grind out max standing in Perp doing even level 1 missions for some miniscule fraction of a point of standing for each mission.  If they want to take 3 years to get there, who cares. AC gets their subscription fees and those who inhabit beta and gamma will always have the major advantage of more efficient facilities.  To those who will no doubt scream “it’s risk vs. reward,” I say: Don’t be greedy.

2) Never, EVER make a boring game and PO is boring after any length of time. 

What makes a game boring or addictive is not pvp. It’s loot (broadly defined as anything that drops/spawns in-game).  It’s what pvp fights are over.  If the loot is boring, the pvp is boring and needless to say, so is the pve. 

Human nature makes people inveterate gamblers, and males particularly so due to high evolutionary payoff (in the form of sex) in the past as well as present for high risk (dangerous) low chance of very high reward (large game animals, being viewed as heroic, etc) behaviors.  If the loot lottery is good, the game is addictive. If it’s not, the game is boring. The loot in PO is too predictable and predictable = boring.  The loot lottery (table) badly needs to be improved.

Back when isotopes were first introduced I suggested (and others added their suggestions) that the isotopes, in combination with new categories of very rare drops of various other kinds of components be necessary for crafting particularly useful items.  Without such rare drops (and they need to be available to everyone in all zones (though perhaps not in alpha 1 and at higher rates in beta & gamma) there’s little point in killing except to GRIND out more cash (and grinding is boring).  On the other hand, if there’s a chance (however small) that you’ll hit the lottery on the next try, then the game turns into a case of ‘one more try (nothing), another one (nothing), another try,…’ and the next thing the player knows it’s 4 AM, but they had a good time and they can’t wait to log in again and try again the next day.  AC did something like that with the Anniversary/Christmas specials, but those were overkill (a flood of T4 items). They need to make a rational version of that a part of every-day game play.

To compound the problem, AC negated even the rarer, higher payoffs they did put in game (T2,3,4 items).  When you already have 50 of a t2 item and you get another one it’s a non-event when you can’t even recycle it for more than a T1 item yields.

3) Never, ever, ever, EVER make a game tedious and PO is most definitely unnecessarily tedious.

If anyone in RL ever designed a TP system such as the one in PO they’d be fired on the spot.  Imagine a RL situation where every train line is very short and every train has it’s own station no closer than 1 km from any other station leaving the need to walk between stations.  That’s PO.

Here again, EVE got it right (autopilot) and PO got it wrong. The highways helped, but the whole system still reeks of an artificial (not integral to the game) attempt to make players spend time traveling.  I don’t remember how many new players I heard grumbling about the system at various times and who were all gone after a few days. It’s probably too late to change that now, but at a minimum the game needs autopilot routes between all TPs and stations (if someone is dumb enough to use it on beta and gamma islands that’s their problem).  When you TP into an area, one should be able to click on either the nearest TP or nearest station and have an autopilot take them there over the existing highway system.

4) Never, EVER make a game frustrating and the research system in PO was most definitely frustrating.  Grinding out another 2k kernels just to unlock the last 1 or 2 tier 3 or 4 prototypes @~2% per 50 kernels utilized was an exercise is acute frustration (and doubly so after that last one unlocked yet 1 more that required yet another 2k to research).

Hopefully this is already on the way to being fixed.

5) Without players in PvP zones, there is no PvP.

If you want PvP to be successful, you need players to be able to hunt others solo or in small groups (not just in when they’re in blobs).  To do that you need potential solo targets and to generate potential solo targets, players need to feel/think they actually have a chance at getting in and getting out again in one piece.  Nowadays pvp zones are deserted so it’s somewhat doable (there’s just no one around to actually do it), but back in the early days (when there were actually a fair number of players) not so much.  The problem here is that the islands feel small (no place to hide and no way to hide).  The smartest thing EVE ever did was introduce cloaks about 9 months after it went live. 

This whole issue opens a can of worms I’d rather not deal with here and now.  Possibilities for ‘opening up’ beta and gamma include making scanners inoperable for seeing other players, cutting their range in beta and gamma (perhaps proportionally), cloaks (and countermeasures of course), and some that others can no doubt suggest.  For those who complain that it would make rooting out invaders harder, I say: that’s right, it would, and it would give you something to actually do besides grow potatoes and mine ores.

Anyways, that’s my take on the major problems and my suggestions for solutions.

8

(0 replies, posted in General discussion)

Back last spring I posted this just before I stopped logging in.

http://forums.perpetuum-online.com/topi … pe-system/

Logged in today just before my sub was set to expire at the end of the month for one last look around and to spend my accumalated EP and saw the 9-17 patch notes concerning ICE. Bought 2 immediately and will continue to buy more to keep the account active while I wait, hoping AC finally figures out not just how to be very good at making a game, but also at figuring out what makes a game very good and able to retain players.

Burial wrote:
Calio wrote:
Brutux wrote:

- PLEX in EvE did NOTHING to improve the $ for CCP

My original post proved this point wrong. They got an extra 2 years worth of subs from me because of my ability to buy subs in EVE with isk. I would NOT have resubbed when I left the first time had I not been able to use my accumulated isk to buy time codes and I wouldn't have gone back to EVE (and resub again) had my account not still been active due to the time codes bought with isk.

I'm at the same point here in Perp.  The difference is that there's no way for me to extend my sub when the current one expires in a couple of months and by then I will definitely no longer be playing Perp, so I will not extend my sub (I don't pay money for things I know I won't use).

If you really want to count that in, then you would have to count the peoples out who left the game because of PLEX too.

I would argue that more stayed than left and so a net benefit to CCP. I think it's no accident that EVE has continued to grow all these years (besides the quality of the game itself).  With a time based advancement system, if one wants to take a break it certainly pays to spend some isk (as opposed to letting one's sub lapse) and continue advancing in preparation for one's return. And, the fact that one is advancing even when gone is actually an incentive to come back, if for no ther reason than to check out one's new skills which open the opportunity to do new things.

In any case, this argument is academic. As I said earlier, Zoom is probably right that the game's economy can't handle it at this time and so (for me) there's no point in continuing this conversation.

P.S. Brutux, thanks for the kind words.

Brutux wrote:

- PLEX in EvE did NOTHING to improve the $ for CCP

My original post proved this point wrong. They got an extra 2 years worth of subs from me because of my ability to buy subs in EVE with isk. I would NOT have resubbed when I left the first time had I not been able to use my accumulated isk to buy time codes and I wouldn't have gone back to EVE (and resub again) had my account not still been active due to the time codes bought with isk.

I'm at the same point here in Perp.  The difference is that there's no way for me to extend my sub when the current one expires in a couple of months and by then I will definitely no longer be playing Perp, so I will not extend my sub (I don't pay money for things I know I won't use).

DEV Zoom wrote:

You can spin it however you want, a plex-type system is simply a pay2win system: you put in real cash, you get lots of ingame cash.

When EVE did this, they already had a stable market and economy. We don't have that, and introducing the system now would probably create massive inflation, turn NIC worthless, and make "plexes" effectively a must-have for everyone.

While I respectfully disagree with the moralistic basis for your opinion (Pay2win is HAVING to buy something in a cash shop to be competetive; this is something like Payextra2play because the RL money gets nothing that any other play can't also get through an investment of time), I have to confess that the economic basis for your opinion is probably correct. The game population is too low to maintain a liquid market and demand will likely far outpace supply, leading to enormously high prices and disruptions to the game's economy.

Oh well....

Burial wrote:
Baal wrote:
Burial wrote:

Using the logic, the game would benefit from having f2p game model with cash shop - afterall, you can come back whenever you want and chat with your buddies and so on.

In theory its all fun but it completely breaks the game, how can't people see it?

Plex is not the same as F2P

I agree its not in the same magnitute, but it breaks the game very similarly.

People with more RL money than time are going to buy in-game currency one way or another. With plex they buy it from the devs (indirectly - it actually comes from players and is not 'created' by the devs to sell) and not some gold farmers.  It benefits the game's devs, cuts down on the gold farmers, and benefits players who have some extra isk/nic/whatever to spend. How can you say it breaks the game when it certainly didn't break EVE in any way, shape or form when it was restricted to just time codes as it was in my time there. I have no idea how it was expanded to be harmful after I left EVE and I'm not saying it should be similarly expanded in Perp.

Merkle wrote:

I might be a really good thing if you would please list what you didn't like, or didn't get fixed.

There's really nothing to be gained by being critical of the game except discourage other players from subbing and I have no desire to harm Perp. I've played MMOs long enough to learn that no matter what I (or anyone) says, there will be at least 2 forum-PvP'ers who say they like it (Hell, I could say the world is round and at least 2 others would say it's flat). In any case, the Devs do what they think is right and I have no interest in trying to get their attention by being the loudest voice on the boards. All that happens then is that the words get lost in the noise.

edit: If the Devs are actually interested in my critical analysis of Perp, they know where to find me (they have my email), but we both know that will never happen.

Crepitus wrote:

Interesting.  I never played EVE but I have heard that they have more plex time codes than they have players that can use them and as a result don't have money coming in hence the monocles.

I'm just curious, did you play the test server?

Someone had to buy the plex, so they got the money. Someone bought the EVE time codes I bought back then (they didn't have plex then, just secure trades toward the end of the 5 years), so someone paid for the codes I used as well as the codes for their own accounts. EVE got 2 accounts worth of subs with 1 person (not me) paying for it.

No. haven't done the test server. Most of the things that have worn me down in this game are not being fixed in this patch and I wonder if they ever will. And, that's my point. If my account were still active down the road (even if I had no interest in playing) I would at least leave the client installed just so I could see how things are going (and perhaps, as with EVE, come back to play). But as things stand I'll uninstall at some point and never look back.

My time in Perp is coming to an end after almost a year and a half. I don't want to discuss why. There's no point to it. I'll just leave it at the game has become more frustrating than fun.  The point I do want to make is this:

I had an active account in EVE for 5 years starting shortly after launch.  It is also the only game in 14 years of playing MMOs (starting with the Asheron's Call beta 0) that I ever returned to after leaving it to play something else.  Of those 5 years, I actually only played 4 years - I played 3, then took a year break to play another mmo, then played EVE for another year.  The reason I came back instead of moving on again was because I still had an active account and the reason I still had an active account was because the last thing I did before I left the first time was use my accumulated isk to buy time codes (I was leaving so I didn't need the isk any more, so what the hell).

When the game I left EVE for got played out after a year, my EVE account was still active, so instead of moving on to yet another game, I ended up going back to EVE and playing for another year.  In fact having the account stay active while I was gone was an incentive to return, if for no other reason than to try out the new skills that had been added in the time I was gone.

So, instead of getting 3 years worth of cash from my subs, which would have been all had I stopped subbing after 3 years, CCP got 5 years worth of money for my account.  The Perp dev team can use all the subs they can get to keep this game going. A plex system would certainly get them more than they would have otherwise.

Just my $.02

This has either been fixed or resolved itself. no problem any more

17

(6 replies, posted in Bugs)

It is still happening on normal terrain also. A T4 roaming caravan was stuck on top of the hill at ~ 1446, 658 Hershfield.

Private storage - all items tab just shows current station. When outside it just shows nearest station.

19

(6 replies, posted in Bugs)

It's still happening. I just had an NPC get permanently stuck in the wall at ~1344, 629 Hershfield while trying to get to me.

Arga, I see your point, but the way I saw it was that they would be npc (and maybe also artifact) random rare drops (not seeded on market) with the same drop frequency as beacons (and from the same range of elite npcs), further diluted by the sheer number of different types (e.g., speed, armor, cpu, accu, reactor for bots; damage, rof, range, accu usage, etc for mods), so that even a noob with no immediate use for them could find them (and hit the lottery by selling them) and even a manufacturer with minimal combat skills could farm a low level spawn and have a chance.

Yes, the rich beta corps would offer outrageous sums for them early on (like they did for the floater kernels), but with combat losses, they would eventually have to slow down their purchases or be bled dry. So, after the first month's feeding frenzy, I suspect (perhaps wrongly) that things would settle down (as with floater kernels) and independents would be able to buy them on spec (if not find them) and use them to build with for purposes of sale.

Maybe I'm being a bit too optimistic. I don't know.

Arga wrote:

@Calio

I was thinking about the + modules too.

So, the drop rate on cortexes would have to be very very low (less than 1%) to be inline with t4+ rarity.

While interesting, it wouldn't be something that most indy's couldn't participate in.

Yes, as I said, the drop rate would have to be very low (about as low as beacons) and it would require some number (5, 10, ?) to ,manufacture the bot or module.

Why can't indy's like me not buy them. We buy lots of other materials. It just adds to cost, which gets built into the price.

Arga wrote:

The combat balance is every bit as delicate as the manufactoring system.

While making unique and different modules is would certainly add to building fun, it would also requirie balancing the use of those items.

Agreed.

But we alrerady have something to work off of! The + modules. So adding adding what I called cortexes (call em whatever you want) to the prototype process would allow them to be manufactured in limited and very expensive quantities (with cotexes as the bottleneck).

And, yes, as Lucius says, they need to be locked.

While many of the suggestions are interesting, too many run the risk of throwing the whole manufacturing system into chaos, penalizing people who have done it the old (hard) way, and so on.  What it gets down to is that messing with a complex system is a very tricky business and best approached with extreme caution.

On the other hand, there are things that could be done to spice up manufacturing that don't bloat the DB or screw some people over (while benefiting others).

For example, prototyping bots has always been a waste of resources. So, once the first bot is manufactured or seeded, the only logical thing is to buy one to RE. But what if prototyping bots was made useful.  Say there are rare npc drops that we'll call cortexes (rare as in the frequency of beacon drops). The come in various flavors, such as speed cortexes, armor, accu, cpu, etc.  Some number of only 1 type would be required to make a prototype bot and that bot would have that specific bonus characteristic (e.g., speed cortex = 10% increased speed over standard version). These would be one shot and incapable of being turned into a CT.

This would add variety without bloating the game DB, make the added cost of prototyping a bot worthwhile, add variety to bots, and add pve content. All at the same time and without requiring the devs to spend 6 months of their limited time doing so.

I'm sure there are also other things that could be done along these lines that wouldn't do as much harm as good.

just my $.02

Calio wrote:

T0 & T1 mods need x amount of minerals to build and recycle for a % of them depending on skill , etc.

T2 mods need a T1 mod + enough minerals to build another T0 = 200% of the amount needed to make a T0 (T1 has special mineral reqs due to the noob manufacturing nerf a while back), but recycles to the same % as one T0

T3 mods need a T2 + enough minerals tobuild another T0 = 300% as a T0 but still recycles to the same amount as one T0.

T4 mods need 400% as a T0 but still rcycle to the same amount as one T0.

There is nothing more disappointing than recycling a badly damaged (and too expensive to repair) T2-T4 mod that one already has enough of to last forever and getting nothing extra for the sacrifice.

Recycling T2-T4 mods should yield 2-4 times the minerals a similarly damaged T0 yields.

T0 is what T1 used to be before they nerfed the components, so what I'm saying is that T2-4 should yield 2-4x what T1 USED to yield and T0 still does.

And even if I accept your (incorrect) argument about T1 mods (that they shouldn't count for the same as T0 for recycling purposes because you can't manufacture T0, why should T3 mods yield the same as T2 or T4 the same as T2?

T0 & T1 mods need x amount of minerals to build and recycle for a % of them depending on skill , etc.

T2 mods need a T1 mod + enough minerals to build another T0 = 200% of the amount needed to make a T0 (T1 has special mineral reqs due to the noob manufacturing nerf a while back), but recycles to the same % as one T0

T3 mods need a T2 + enough minerals tobuild another T0 = 300% as a T0 but still recycles to the same amount as one T0.

T4 mods need 400% as a T0 but still rcycle to the same amount as one T0.

There is nothing more disappointing than recycling a badly damaged (and too expensive to repair) T2-T4 mod that one already has enough of to last forever and getting nothing extra for the sacrifice.

Recycling T2-T4 mods should yield 2-4 times the minerals a similarly damaged T0 yields.