26

(4 replies, posted in Services and Discussion)

It would be great if we could develop player-built mechanisms that allow cooperation for mutual benefit. Several CEOs said they were mildly interested in dutch auctions for corporate bonds, but there was insufficient interest; the largest and most reputable corporations are also not set up to accept public investments and grow them.

However, I can offer individual-to-individual secured loans. The collateral for a loan ought to be something which can be priced and easily liquidated at that price, and something where there are real incentives not to liquidate. The best collateral in this game is stacks of kernels.

A manufacturer has startup costs; decoder+prototype, plus materials and nic for the first run. Similarly, a researcher who currently has something researched to 100% and a customer may still need materials and nic to fill the order. A miner or transporter may want a larger bot and expect to be able to pay the loan off faster using the larger bot. One possibility would be to farm kernels, then sell to NPC demand.

I'm offering a better possibility - trade kernels to me at the infinite NPC price. I will keep them in a storage folder, and only liquidate them (by selling to NPC demand) if you do not pay the original sum back plus interest.

Talk to me in-game for details, I will generally be at Asintec Alpha. Also, I encourage you, if you trust someone else more than me (for example, your CEO?), ask them to give you a kernel-secured loan; it's a reasonable deal on both sides, and secured loans are just the start of the player-built social structures we can build.

27

(4 replies, posted in Open discussion)

Glorion wrote:

I have trouble telling tongue-in-cheek sarcasm from sincerity. You might be trying to be funny; in which case please ignore this post. In case you're trying to be sincere:

Aspergers?

Maybe, or just an atrophied sense of humor. tongue

28

(4 replies, posted in Open discussion)

I have trouble telling tongue-in-cheek sarcasm from sincerity. You might be trying to be funny; in which case please ignore this post. In case you're trying to be sincere:

Roger, Menace To Society claims explicitly to be an organization of griefers who would like to play the game as treacherous pirates. That's a reasonable style to play but claims affect the applicants that you get. As far as I can tell from my limited personal experience, Menace to Society includes at least some players who (due possibly to preferences for the pleasure of having gotten away with something forbidden) cannot be trusted to cooperate with others for mutual benefit.

Directly because of its policies, M2S will suffer ill-will from individuals who wish to play in an honorable or businesslike style. Until and unless those policies change, there cannot be a "wiping the slates clean".

29

(18 replies, posted in Guides and Resources)

Thanks for doing this! I greatly appreciate it.

What did you do in order to check / confirm these conclusions? Did you record the positions, values of plants with notetaking, screencaptures, or videos, and then return hourly, for example?

Logkeeping - the ability to execute a trade in a trade window but also have the full details (who what when, possibly a memo field) logged in a (semi) publicly visible log. Simply a log of transactions visible from the Finance character's profile would be good, but associating each transaction to a logbook object that could be shown (not transferred) via corp mail, or duplicated and transferred via in-terminal trade would be even better - in order to keep different sets of records separate.

Currently, if one person, Fred, says they paid up in full, and another person, George, says that Fred didn't pay, then a third person cannot really distinguish who is lying (screenshots are something, but they could be faked with Photoshop, and videos are perhaps stronger, but annoying to use and transfer). The reason it's valuable to distinguish who is lying is so the third person can decide who to trust in the future, or to award a security deposit to the original depositor or the aggrieved party.

Allow players to take level N assignments as level N-1 assignments requiring collateral.

This would be realistic - level is supposed to be confidentiality, the degree you are trusted by the NPC corp. You can be trusted for your past behavior, or you can be trusted because you have risked the collateral.

This makes it easier for more experienced characters to level their alts in a different location, which enhances the replayability of the game. It gives more options to newbie players - either do level one assignments, or somehow obtain the collateral and go and do the level two assignments. It makes alpha outposts more interesting to very new players, who may well be disappointed by their apparent emptiness.

One problem is that sometimes just being able to view the assignments gives out information about mineral locations.  In order to address this visibility problem, it might be possible to have a relation-purchase-sell mechanism; you purchase a certificate or license object that gives +1.0 relation with a given corp with your collateral, then go and do assignments one level above your previous level, then later (if you didn't fail or abort any of those assignments, which would destroy your certificate / license) you can sell your certificate or license back to the corp. A small gap between relation sell price and relation buy price would discourage "tourism".

Still, though comprehensive list of these assignment locations have not yet been leaked (so far as I know) into public knowledge, but it will probably eventually leak, and at that point, hiding the list will be futile.

I like this idea, but I think completely excluding the material from alphas/other islands is too strong. Materials that have more deposits, larger deposits, higher regrowth rate, on one island than others can make different markets interestingly different, without going all the way to complete all-or-nothing exclusion.

The devs may have already done this. I don't know whether the materials and plants are evenly distributed among the islands. The in-game markets don't show much difference, at least - which means that either the materials are fairly evenly distributed, or we have sufficient freighting to smooth out the differences. Certainly the different kinds of kernels are different goods, and the PVE is not evenly distributed at all. Assignment-reward ammo is another good that has uneven distribution.

33

(1 replies, posted in Open discussion)

this is a test, this is only a test, regarding the limits of the forums ability to support persistent (uneditable) communication

It is entirely possible to be a combat + research/prototyper combination. It just will be a fairly long time of doing combat to get kernels, and researching a fraction of them, selling a fraction of them, and using the money to buy ammo, always feeling "poor", before you have enough research% that you can buy refined commodities and prototype something (a non-standard item, so not ammo) that you can sell to a manufacturer.

As a combat-specced character, you might reasonably invest some EP into repairing and/or recycling. If you fight NPCs that drop modules that you might want to fit, you might obtain modules for your own use more cheaply. If you do assignments regularly for one specific megacorp, then you will find yourself gaining relation ratio, which will help with repairing and recycling. If you choose to get into repairing and/or recycling, you may want to either make marketer contacts and sell your wares directly (in-terminal trade), or also invest EP in marketing, tax reduction, and accounting.

Even if you do not get into repair or recycle, you might invest EP in finance extensions, and place sell orders for your kernels, and/or buy orders for your bots and fittings rather than behaving as a "price taker" - that immediacy is pleasant, but it costs NIC.

If you want to be a reverser/manufacturer who is not also a researcher/prototyper, then you probably will need cooperate with a researcher/prototyper (since the open markets for prototypes are not very liquid) or limit yourself to reversing and manufacturing standard items, obtained from the market or drops.

I recommend Gerrick's guide to industry, in this subsection of this forum.

Briefly, industry "roles" include miner (and harvester, and possible specialists in each material), refiner, researcher/prototyper, reverser/manufacturer, repairer, recycler, and many forms of combat support. Most players will choose several roles, either by making a generalist character, or by making single-player teams of multiple characters, on the same or different accounts.

Not all roles allow you to make money from the beginning - researcher/prototyper needs a significant amount of investment of kernels before becoming viable as an income source, for example.

Possibly the devs thought you needed encouragement to put a weapon, energy transferrer, or remote repper on your miner to help your guards out a bit in skilled mining? I don't know what the devs were thinking, but they were thinking something.

39

(19 replies, posted in Feature discussion and requests)

I don't have a strong opinion on the original idea; not strongly against it, but a glut of low-level decoders isn't actually a problem. It may disappoints farmers who wanted pre-glut prices for their lvl1 and lvl2, and pleases newbie manufacturers who can cheaply play with manufacturing, but any change is likely to disappoint some players and please some other players.

But if the devs were to implement something like this, possibly a similar downconversion rate would be reasonable too. Then the various decoders markets would become a loosely-coupled distributed market, with the lvl 3s and lvl 5s acting as price caps and floors for the lvl 4s and so on. That might increase decoder liquidity (things that can be priced are more liquid than things  that are hard to price) and almost everybody prefers liquid markets.

Baldy, you suggested limit orders would decrease the bid/ask spread? Why do you think so?

I was under the impression a limit order simply acted as a "execute at market price" buy or sell, moving through the order book until it has shifted the price to its limit, at which point it becomes an ordinary buy or sell order at the limit price.

We can do that now by a pair of a buy followed by a buy order, or a sell followed by a sell order; I don't see how adding a special-purpose mechanism would tighten the bid/ask spread.

41

(9 replies, posted in Q & A)

Microsoft was a wild success because it succeeded in creating an ecosystem - the Windows ecosystem - harvesting a share (via network effects and API lock-in) of the success of many smaller, faster moving, more innovative companies. Apple created ecosystems too, and many cell phone companies imitated that success, creating app stores to try to create ecosystems of their own. One of WoW's successful innovations was creating an ecosystem of UI add-ons.

A 21st-century denizen might be mildly surprised at the megacorps' strategies, but even back then, the largest and most cutting edge corporations were moving toward ecosystem creation strategies rather than direct employer-employee control. The megacorps want the human presence on Nia to feel a strong sense of ownership and they want it well able to defend itself from internal and external threats. They retain an iron lock on the wormhole, which is where they will rake in their share of the resulting ecosystem's wealth.

Though you COULD use the "publicly announce that a payout has occurred, then owners display certificates to get their share of the payout" mechanism I describe above, it would be unpleasant enough that I think nobody would in fact use it.

Two similar ideas and one slightly different one.
1. Cash flow devices. A financial expert can create a "brand" or "printing press" object, labeling it at creation with a small amount of text, signed with the creators identity and possibly (with the correct role) their corporation's identity. From the brand object they can manufacture certificate objects (document objects labeled according to the brand). They can then trade the certificate objects to anyone, and later pay NIC into the brand object, and have it (divided according to the number of certificate objects) arrive in the accounts of the owners of the certificates.

This would greatly simplify administering corporate stock. It would also allow easy administration of various kinds of insurance securities, such as outpost encumbency securities ("pays 100k NIC if RG owns Karapyth at noon on 2211-12-31"), which could be used for insurance or mercenary purposes. Of course, there's still a trust issue - the label says it pays out at such and such a rate but will Artem Blue actually pay out that much?

2. Document flow devices. Just like the cash flow, the financial expert creates a "brand" object containing a short bit of text and their signature, then uses it to manufacture certificates identified with that text and signature, trades the certificates and then feeds stacks of (identical) documents into the brand object to distribute them (divided) to the owners of the certificates.

This would allow for a combinatorically large number of complex financial arrangements. For example, an outpost encumbency security that pays out in corporate scrip or shares.

3. If you have a message in the real world, you can (using XOR and parity) divide it into (for example) 5 chunks, any 3 of which are sufficient to recreate the original document. Another finance verb would allow dividing any object (or if that's too strong, any document) into 5 "quantum" fragments, any 3 of which are sufficient to recreate the original. This is a technique for more-secure freighting. The fragments would each have the same volume as the original, so you have to pay additional hauling fees (plus any cost of the dividing process), but pirates can't steal or destroy your object as easily. On the other hand, it's not a perfect defense, they could still steal a majority of the fragments and put it back together.

This would allow for lower value-density cargo which would lower the stakes of the pvp freight game, making it easier for newbie (uncapitalized) haulers to get into it. It would also create more traffic in general, which should make pirates happy - they get less per target, but more targets (less waiting, more chasing, more fun), and making a special effort to collect a particular "set" is fun.

I think somebody forgot about rule 12.

44

(41 replies, posted in Services and Discussion)

The way to keep other people from undercutting you is to offer a price that is actually difficult for them to undercut. Yes, this means you get less than monopolistic profits. That's the consequence of competition.

45

(18 replies, posted in Open discussion)

"I brake for demobilizers"

JSands, if the "average price" is a moving average of prices of trades that were actually executed, a factor of 5 too high would be consistent with a falling price - and many things have been falling in price, as the economy boots up.

I like the idea too, at least in terms of gameplay. If there were troop-carrying boats, though, wouldn't there be anti-troop-carrying boats? I don't want this to escalate to a naval game.

Possibly an armored inter-island missile, that is buffeted on its way back down by Nia's "natural" anti-air defenses, and finally breaks up, depositing the landing party at a random location, not just on the coast, but anywhere randomly within the island's area.

Regardless of whether it's a boat or a missile, there would be several new mechanisms to snatch a group (all members of a squad within a certain radius of an activating module? some sort of waiting room within a terminal?) to be delivered, and to specify the destination island.

Savin wrote:

I think you might wish to reevaluate these descriptions a bit. How is RG the most honorable? M2S, while they tout the "bad boy" image, really haven't done anything to merit the title- and their behavior on these forums is actually pretty respectable. On the other hand, are you sure that ECORP and HUN have no roles? They seem to be active within their alliances.

What I meant by "explicit" is that they have a particular public, advertised image. I know that the image is not the same as actions. I agree that ECORP and HUN are active, interesting corps - that's why I mentioned them at all - but they do not have as colorful public identities; the post was an attempt to get them to step up.

A field exchange container, when deployed, acts like an in-terminal trade window.

Costs more than twice what a regular field container costs, so that trust and risking theft with a standard field container still has a place in the game. Possibly requires EP in a diplomacy / relations / finance extension to use (level 4 accounting? or a new extension, that gradually raises the limit on the number of distinct items that can be traded or the number of sequential trades executable with one field exchange container).

This would promote friendly exchanges between relative strangers in the field, while still encouraging people to group up into mutually-trusting corps for greater efficiency.

An idea for finance: the ability to create document objects. A document object has some text (e.g. "pays 100k NIC to bearer") and an unforgeable signature (e.g. "Niem"), possibly with a corp role as well (e.g. "Niem, Sachs treasurer"). A document object can be shown (not transferred) via mail, or transferred via trade.

First, this would allow various (human-mediated) contracts. For example, it would allow shipping contracts, assuming a trusted third party (e.g. Sachs). Suppose Sachs were a trusted financial services corporation. A hauler escrows collateral with Sachs, and Sachs publishes the names of "bonded" haulers, as well as the amount and duration of their collateral. Then the hauler gives a "started job 123" receipt to the shipper in exchange for the goods at the beginning, and gets a "successfully completed job 123" receipt from the shipper in exchange for the goods at the end.

Then if the hauler tried to rip someone off, they could show their "started job" receipt to Sachs, and Sachs would ask the hauler to show their "completed job" receipt. If actually did rip someone off, then the hauler couldn't show a completed job receipt, and Sachs would give the collateral to the shipper.

After the escrow period is up, Sachs allows the original depositor to withdraw the escrowed collateral.

Second, this could also be used to create new currencies, even discriminatory currencies. The best way to create wealth is to specialize and trade with other specialists to get everything you need, but corps also do not want to enrich their opponents. A corporate scrip would be a currency that as a matter of policy can only be redeemed by corporation members or allies. This could allow corporations to cooperate among themselves, moving NIC to the roles (e.g. manufacturers) where it is required, while preventing wealth from flowing to opponents.

It would create more distinct markets, more interesting / challenging trust issues (corporate scrip can also be used to exploit workers by locking them into buying at monopolistic prices, or can be devalued by hyperinflation), and new roles (e.g. currency trader).

Third, it could be used for stock trading. A stock share is a document entitling the bearer to a cash flow of dividends. A corporation could create stock shares, sell them or give them away, and later announce a dividend payout, and anyone who shows a share at that point will be transferred that quantity of NIC.