Normally I'm a nice furry, lovable fuzzball and this instance is no exception.

What we see here is not good.  Its not the effort, its not the bonus, over all a good try.  Its the complete misfiring of what Zoom wants these bots to become.  These are suppose to be the quirky, weird ex-girlfriends that you use everyone once and awhile for fun.  Not diehard PVP bots.  Unless He, or the DEV team take a step back and see a small rework would do for all of the factions, nothing good will change.

Here is what I'm talking about.

Beast hit upon what these bots should of been, this faction should get Interference SPECIALIZATION.  Just as blue gets ECM, Red supression, green EnWar.  This is logical, it makes sense gives the player a understanding of what is what, what to expect, as well as Open options in the market place.  No special requirements are needed, find a CT, get the minerals, go build, and kill.  With these new bots the way to get them makes sense, but ONLY for strange and specialized bots.  EI - Generic.

Wait Wait, how do we do this then, what do we do.  Lets look at Mk1, and Mk2 bots currently.  We have the same stats and rolls for both of them, with very minor differences (Mass is higher on Mk2, better Fitting.)  So do the same thing with these bots.  Make them a true new faction with all that entails, move them over to be buildable.  The ewar has Interference Spec, DPS of firearms, and Shielded. (Red, Blue - Armor, Green, Yellow - Shielded)

Ok, now WHY do we do it this way.  If you make these new bots so desirable in PVP (Speced for Demob, Ultra fast speed, ect) you make PVP have a higher barrier of entry.  When you run a gang of a large size you specialize certain team members to meet a goal.  Making one bot that isnt like the others to be obtained in a special way that means so much for the battlefield is not smart game design.  This is hard to explain up to the point when you see it. 

TDRL - Zooms game design does not mesh with what your bonus are currently, he wants even more quirkiness.  I completely disagree with the current game design direction.  Its ok on the short term (Oh look new stuff), but will quikly die off due to a incomplete picture.

Notice how this is all general conjecture without any real numbers?

Annihilator wrote:
DEV Zoom wrote:
Lobo wrote:

but I want to have the choice to engage or not and not get one shot. Please look deeper at the hit size mechanics vs alpha strikes of heavies on assaults, as fun as it is to one-shot assault classes it shouldn't  happen to vets or noobs alike.

Yes this is something I plan to specifically look into. Maybe a bigger difference is needed between the hit size of lights/assaults and the accuracy of medium weapons.

well, thats a good idea,
but you have to look at the implications that come with that too. especially with shields, medium accumulators and ewar that has 100% chance to hit and no LoS restriction that does not have any penalty from beeing boosted by rangextenders wink

No ***.

Zoom is slow, but not stupid.
More thoughts to come with a SS.

See in the PDF that was linked how the mass is green?

That is used as your balancing tool post patch.  No *** on my end, I am quite aware of masses and what they tend to do to speeds.

As for the suggestion that I made above.  This will only work IF speed changes are made with said patch. 
Reason being ballistics need speed to get into range, they also need speed for the increased mass of the guns.  This is why we have a 3 kph difference between each color.  This is small enough to allow for open fittings, yet large enough for those variations to mean something strategically.

Here Is a updated sheet showing if you make the armor changes, of what I suggest to do with ammo types.  The big thing is to move the standard types to what is on the sheet.  More freedom with the Two faction ammo types, I feel is just fine.  Those SHOULD be quirky and different.


  • + or - Ammo Reload Time

  • + or - Weapon Dispersion

  • Small Energy Neuting Effect

  • Small Demob Effect

  • + or - ROF

  • + or - Falloff Range

  • + or - Optimal Range

  • + or - Weapon Energy Consumption

Here are the changes I would make, this is more of a overall balance pass. This focuses on good overall dynamics of speed, opening speed ranges, locking ranges, and using guns (EM, Laser, Missile, Ballistic) to move in a solid direction.

PDF - Link

Open Office Sheet - Link

Both Light, and Light Ewar would need speed tweaks for this to fit into everything correctly.  But this could be done in increments with the end goal of slowing down mechs and heavy mechs.   Done though select speed ups of lighter bots, and small incremental slow downs on heavy mechs.  Mechs, and Mech Ewar falling in the middle.

Why do want it this way?  This opens up Mk2 bots for different things, and if these are accepted within the community I can take those ideas.  Those that  latch onto Zoom's original specialized bot ideas, and move them forward with balance suggestions and newish bot boni.

When making a balance argument, compare apples to apples.

Not Mk1 vs Mk2.

I ran my numbers last night.  Still working the math on suggested changes.

Line wrote:
Perpetuum wrote:

Wall of text

Your main problem is that you think that robot parts are somehow linked with robot stats and attributes. But they are not, it's just 3D model. Stop thinking in that way.

Shockingly this isn't the problem.
It comes down to logical ways of thinking and game design.

When you look at Composite bots, or the original idea of making bots able to swap out parts, they were linked to each "part" as to say.

The problem in why this wasn't introduced is with the current boni, its extremely likely you would have major imbalances.  Hence, the scrapping of said idea!

The point I am attempting to make is simple.  Your boxing yourself into a corner attempting to make new content that were not quite ready for.   Making a entire new side in itself sounds great, but your adding in, and losing great potential down stream. 

Build on what you have first, in a logical systematic way.  So that future implementations of bots are easy, as you have your rule set in place.
I can go on, but this really isnt for the community at large, more so a personal referendum on the current changes, and what great impact they will have on PVP gameplay.  But, what little impact they will have on population.

Ok, I get it Zoom.

People have been asking for "stuff" for, well forever.  Its never enough, its not right, this and that. 

Do this correctly.  Think past all this stuff, do it right, logically, and sensibly.   Your adding in a new "people did this" faction thinking it will get a boost of what you have.  This isn't needed.  Save this for later.  Build on the colors of what you have. 

Here is what you do, start out with the small things.  So lets pick the  Ikarus, and the Hermes.  These are logical.

The Ikarus is nian, and fills a roll that we need.  The Hermes is the New "faction" bot as its what we need to do stuff and explore.  So we made it to find those artifacts. 

Next is where we deviate from your plan, go to a roll that we need/want. 
Lets pick something small. Light Assault Ewar.
This is from the example above.

Fill all of those out with all the RBG colors and see what your player base does with them.  Fix OP where you need to and direct energy into it. 

Lets do another example.
Um...Let me see.  Light Expanse Bots.  Again were STARTING small.

These boni revolve around Damage, and Range, however are slower, and lower ROF using Medium Weapons.

Using are logic that we established from the earlier postings.
Red - Uses Prom Base, Blue Legs, Head is Green

What does this Mean.

Legs - Its the fastest as its using Blue Legs, and Blue Resists.
Torso - Uses Red Damage Baseline/Range Baselines.
Head - Uses Locking, Locking Range Baselines.

Now from here, as your using a logical progression, you can then tweak and balance what you need to.  Range really high on all of them across the board?  Whats the DPS look like, is it burst damage?  What type of damage, LOS filters into this as well.  Now take all to that stuff, and see what the sever is doing with it.  See how people are breaking them, then fix them.  This is should be done on a monthly cycle that everyone knows about. 

Introduction of new Bots.
2st Month - Small balance patch to ONLY new bots.
3nd Month - Do nothing.
4rd Month - See if patch is needed, if so do it WITHOUT saying so to the player base.
8th Month - See if final Patch is needed, Buff or Nerf as needed.

Wait, what if people get mad? Like the last time you did a balance patch?

I will say the last balance "thing" did have one positive outcome.  It changed the meta.  Doing these small patches changes the meta.  You break builds, you make players think and get off autopilot, this is GREAT for the game.  You piss people off when you do a wide brush approach, but when its small people can react faster, as you have less information for them to absorb.

Changing the meta makes things fresh again for older players, and newer ones have no clue whats going on so this isnt for them anyway, but they see the benefit from it.

Spelling and Grammer duh.

DEV Zoom wrote:

I have not only picked what looks best, I have picked what WORKS. Not everything works together, sometimes modules clip into other parts of the robot, sometimes the connection of the head is not really compatible with the torso, and so on. That's why we scrapped the completely free hybrid robot concept in the first place.

No you scrapped it as you couldn't find a way to balance it.

Metis: heavy mech specialized for remote support modules

Lets talk bacon.
These few words mean so much not only to the game, but how your going about it.

First, this is a compete game changer if it means what the English language says it does.   Your adding in a dedicated RR bot to the game.  It becomes the defacto healer, the one you cant go without, the thing that every group needs, the were not undocking without X amount. 

I hope you know what your doing with it. 
So lets change it, rework those simple words.

You need to scrap the mech!  Go back to the drawing board and do Red, Green, Blue "Industrial's".  Then specialize those into what each is good at.  So Blue (Remote Reps), Red (Remote Sensor), Green (Remote Energy). 
Then you intermix them as per your kill chart, Blue Kills Green, Green Kills Red, Red Kills Blue THUS ---->

Blue Specialization -  Remote Reps, But With Green Stats, So ----> Bot has Lowest Speed, AND has Green Resists.
Red Specialization - Remote Sensor Amp ----> Bot has Highest Speed, and Blue Resists
Green Specialization - Remote Energy ----> Bot has Mid Speed, Red Resists

Tie this to how they look.

Green - Ictus Torso, Zenith Legs, Termis Head (As per the Industrial Support)
Same thing with all the rest.  You can do crazy things with extensions Too!

Doing it this way Opens the doors to other specializations and rolls to be plugged in a logical way.

Example Time!

Light Assault Ewar.  (Abry, Wasp, Balpo)  Skilled at using Medium Weps, with Ewar at Reduced Range
Can fit Medium Weps (Two Max)

Red - Sensor Dampening ---> Bot has Highest Speed, and Blue Resists.
Blue - ECM ---> Bot has Lowest Speed, AND has Green Resists.
Green - E Drain ----> Bot has Mid Speed, Red Resist

Red - Intact Torso, Abry Legs, Laird Head (Possible Head Change)
So on for the rest!

These fit logical fittings, and cross crazyness.   You dudes just willy nilly picked what you liked without any logical thinking.  You picked what looked "best".  Make some look ugly, and some people might fall in love with them.

Crazy Spelling $ Grammer!

Baal wrote:
DEV Zoom wrote:


They don't use colixum because these are not intended to be high end stuff. But don't worry we will have something for that too.
... .

Dat cliffhanger! big_smile big_smile big_smile

You don't know what your doing with balance with what you have your going to add in more "stuff".  Sounds about....well crazy.

Don't really mean to be harpen on ya, but this is the single issue that just makes the vets go meh, as your last balance patch is when stuff just went to hell. 

Your going to ruin your scale.  I would love to make suggestions, but you dudes just dont listen to anything of what your player base says.  Example of these new bots, you said we would have input.  Nope.  We *** over the "balance patch", you don't listen.

Your plan is to add in randomized T5 to a degree.  Not saying it wont work, saying your not thinking your tier system out.  We don't need a T5, rework T1-T4. 

T1 - Base Stats
T2 - Best Damage
T3 - Best Range
T4 - Best Speed

Speed kills, Range is King on Intrusions, Damage Queen of Ganking/Area denial. 

You want high damage?  Well your going to lose speed, and range.

You want Speed.  Sorry, no range or damage.

You want Range.  Welp, no Speed or Damage.

Right now its a race to the top, we all want top damage, speed and range, AND WE HAVE IT.  T4 is the end game of everything right now, T3 is useless, T2 is maybe only for fitting/speed.  T1 is trash.  Get unused stuff, and make it useful.  Have good spreads so you need to use it for different strats.

Terrible Grammer/Spelling, I'll start caring when I do.

Naismith wrote:

Good question would be, what will be the specialization of the syndicate EW mech? Pretty much the only "open" niche is a demobbing specialist unless you're planning to make it a jack-of-all?

They would need a actual plan of attack to be thinking this far.

Not impressed at all.  I did enjoy the quip about balance from Zoom, so hard to balance.  It really isn't when you have a entire population that can help you.


(28 replies, posted in Bugs)

Sure, the release just happens to coniside with quite a few of the terrible choices that were made.

This wasn't thought out in the long term.  Terraforming was part of the problem, and was a no brainer unlimited terra was going to be bad...bad...bad.  World building is a gimmicky idea that is nothing more then that, a idea.  Give the parties the illusion of power through other means, and leave the true world building to set guidelines.
Slap on the epriton and you Truly start to see the panic.

Not only should this be scrapped, it should be completely ran from.

We have entire sides vowing not to build, couldn't agree more.  Rules changing, bugs going untouched, player bases seeing whats going wrong, and zero changes.



(28 replies, posted in Bugs)

Gamma should be completely scrapped.

This was one of the nails, that killed this game.  Too much too soon, with little understanding what they want.

DEV Zoom wrote:

Balance is being looked into along with the new robots, but I don't see such extreme problems that would require stretching this out to multiple months.

On the other hand, whatever changes there might be, I fully expect people to complain nevertheless because everyone seems to have different opinions about balance.

Again, not trying to get into a shouting match with you. 

But, your wrong.

What your going to do is compound problems.  When people feel they don't have the power to use what they have to make things work, they get discouraged.
This is what happened with Green's.

The meta changes everytime you do small balance changes, speed is the king of all these changes.  I just don't think you understand that, or have any clue how to balance, or where to start.

All I can do at this point, is do a collective *Shrug

I would suggest you take a hard look at your balance, and your teiring system first.

Reason being, your going to make a "new" line of bots, yet, balance hasn't moved.
Sometime ago you said we would have input into this, that doesn't seem to be the case.  All good.

Why I am suggesting you re balance first, fix the Red vs Green Blue imbalance.  Then do a tie in with the new bots.

A example of this:

Rebalance patch- Fixes Existing problems.
Second Rebalance patch - Fixes Small problems with first patch (1 Month after First)
Third Rebalance Patch - Changes Mk1-Mk2 bots to fit into New Roll Based Bots.

*Deploy New Roll Based Bots*

Forth Reblance Patch - Address Imbalances with new Bots-Mk1-Mk2 Bots.

If you wish to have a helping hand.

You have my email.  Non-Biased Third Party, who knows the PVP avenues.

DEV Zoom wrote:

Honestly the balance patch has been blown up to be the sole scapegoat for the current low number of players, because that's convenient. Even if it had some bad decisions in it, I think the majority of the changes was good (light/assault boost, role bonuses) so there is no need for a rollback. That said, with the introduction of Syndicate robots I will take a look at overall robot balance again and make changes if necessary.


I truly and sorry that you feel this way.

This shows the incredible disconnect that you have, and continue to have with PVP balance.
A complete lack of understanding of how speed effects mobility and tactics. 

Also your lack of looking at stats to see what types of bots are being used, and HOW they are being used. 
Killboards are free balancing tools that should of been looked at frequently.

Your roll bonus that you touted, matter very little, as per the speed that you simply do not understand.  Couple this with a complete lack of understanding of demobs and what to do with them....poof.

This balance patch was the hammer, that drove the final nails into the coffin.

See I told you to not *** until its out.

All is well.


Is it random, "random", or you think its random?


(16 replies, posted in Balancing)

When Indiana is mad, you know you messed up.

Aye Pod wrote:
Jita wrote:
Blocker wrote:

ohh comon Ville, you know perfectly well that until recently you guys were the ones that comprised the majority of the server. We could, on rare occasion, muster a dozen pvp'ers against you at best. What's changed is the majority of your alliance has stopped playing, now more times than not we can field even numbers.

Not whining, just pointing out the basic facts.


You leaving out the fact that most of your crew wouldnt step up to pvp unless you thought you had the advantage. Same as us. You just seem to be mad that we found that advantage up until we decided to stop logging in.

You just admitted to blobbing.

Worthless as always. 

Why is noone getting banned over this offtopic posting? 

On topic -

This is a terrible idea, and should never happen.
See its that simple to add in your two cents!

Some are more challenged then OTHERS.


(5 replies, posted in General discussion)

Ville wrote:

It's $10.  Dead pool tickets cost more.

He is trying to be hip.


(16 replies, posted in Balancing)

Break the perma squad Zoom!

Dont hold back!