26

(92 replies, posted in Feature discussion and requests)

Because historically Perpetuum has done so well for itself only appeasing the PvP crowd.
Because 95% of EVE's subs are not in high sec.
Because beta isn't the only place you can mine epriton.

Oh Wait.

The boosters give a bigger advantage to new players than vets because of the way extensions cost more the higher you raise them.

But yes, +1 to giving new players a one month 50% boost for free! Would probably sell more boosters after that as well giving them a taste of it.

28

(1,455 replies, posted in General discussion)

Its pretty clear SpT is another feature like the original walls and original proximity probes that was added to the game so hopelessly unrestricted it was destined to be abused to no end. This was realized by most people on day one. Sadly we were too busy dealing with building/defending our sandcastles to make much of a public fuss about it. Also at the time it personally benefited my corporation (CIR) and we abused it to no end too to do the same things STC does to their enemies now. One moment we were on gamma safely mining in Rivaler Mk2's and spamming beacons, the next we were taking a sap from M2S on Hokogaros and a bit later we were back on our island mining uninterrupted ready to defend if necessary.

Rex is right about allowing instant travel in region localized games... It tears at the very foundation of the game itself when you completely trivialize that element.

29

(55 replies, posted in Feature discussion and requests)

http://pastebin.com/JyV0qGCm

Here is my initial attempts at a system for reballancing MK2 robots into interesting roles. Some of the roles are inspired by Perpetuum, some of the roles are inspired by EVE.

I don't mean to hijack your thread Burial but I feel like alot of these ideas could be mixed together with your MK3 system (specialized bots that are not straight upgrades at everything).

30

(55 replies, posted in Feature discussion and requests)

Martha Stuart wrote:
Sundial wrote:

Stuff

God dam, I would Love to have my Tyro mk2 have a 50% accum recharge rate + a 25% shield absorption.  Throw in a reactor sealing and I would be unbreakable.

Notice I reduced the high slots to 3 smile

We want it to be tanky and be able to fire more often than another shield bot under fire but obviously we don't want to obslete the tyranos mk1's abilities by giving it a better slot layout. Thats why I moved the 25% shield bonus out of the high slot into the role bonus and gave it reduced slots.

31

(55 replies, posted in Feature discussion and requests)

Celebro wrote:

I would just prefer a  re-balancing of Mk1 and MK2 with far clearer roles defining them.

Other than that the Devs have always been working on hybrids since the game's inception. So maybe even easier to add hybrid robots with a wide range of choices on offer.

+1

Why does it have to be MK3? Why can't we just have specialized bots be MK2 and generalized be MK1?

We should have combat bots for MK2 in each size focussed on different things...

Leave the current mechs (MK1) as they are, then add specialized versions (MK2) with specific roles and slot layouts/bonuses for doing certain things better.

Example for Pelistal:

--MK1 Tyranos--

4 High
4 Launchers
2 Turret/Utility
3 Low

5% Missile Damage
5% Lock Time
5% Recharge

--MK2 Tyranos: Assault Configuration--

4 High
4 Launchers
2 Low

5% Missile Damage
5% Lock Time
1% Velocity (Trade for recharge bonus)

Role Bonus:

25% Missile Cycle Time

--MK2 Tyranos: Bunker Configuration--

3 High
4 Launchers
4 Low

5% Missile Damage
5% Lock Time
5% Recharge Rate

Role Bonus:

-25% Reactor Stability
25% Shield Absorbsion
-80% to shield cycle time (reduce to 1 second)

32

(1,455 replies, posted in General discussion)

Lemon wrote:

The difference between a Inter-zone and a Spking is quite drastic  for power projection and response. Interzoning is not only vulnerable to being physically spotted in the game world but it also has a limit on how much force can move across it at any given moment.

Again this is not for the players who have multiple accounts and leverage cookie-cutter fits but for the none-hardcore stream-lined corps and their members.

The main differences between interzone and SpT are their bottlenecks and where they can project power to.

Spark Teleport:
a. Must be able to dock at destination.
b. Must have set destination for spark teleporting at destination.
c. Must have bot ready at destination.
d. Must have 1000 nic lol
e. Destination must be an outpost within any range.

Interzone Teleport:
a. Must wait 180 second warmup time
b. Must wait 30 seconds between each individual player
c. Point a can be mitigated in advance by placing the teleport in advance. Placing in advance has drawbacks including being spotted by hostile forces and potentially wasting the teleport as well as potentially missing your target.
d. Point b can be mitigated in advance by setting up many interzones at once. Cost and distance restrictions between teleports is the limiting factor here. Of course you are even more likely to be spotted in this scenario.
e. Destination must be a teleport within range

All of SpT's power projection bottlenecks can be mitigated before power is projected (set your destination, have bots at destination) where as interzones provide no way to do this reasonably in advance without large tedious expenditures. The main advantage of interzones is the ability to project power to any teleport within range instead of any outpost that meets the restrictions of SpT. Regardless of this, SpT still comes out ahead for almost every use.

33

(1,455 replies, posted in General discussion)

Burial wrote:

I understand the problem but a cooldown isn't helping them any more than it's hurting. Something needs to make the vets reluctant to aggress the noobs.

Now we are on the same page. We need solutions before the new population starts making a go at beta islands else history will repeat itself. Granted some groups of players have been stronger than others, but I feel like many of them were destroyed too quickly.

34

(1,455 replies, posted in General discussion)

Burial wrote:

That's not true that you can never mine. Just keep your eyes up and mine until enemy reaches certain threshold. Example, you mine on Beta2 and enemy is preparing in Beta terminal. Stop your operation for a moment when enemy reaches Beta2 island. If you are just worried that someone can't mine on beta at all due to enemy movement, then cooldown is not the right thread, you should voice the concern in the epriton moved to beta thread. tongue

Anyway Sundial, you are underestimating how clever some people can be after few months of playing. It's not hard to mine on beta if you smarten up. With the growing Epriton price, it's not probably too bad even if you loose few bots here and there.

I am not worried about me, I am worried about newer groups of players being able to progress and grow in the game and one day become gamma entities even. You know one of the reasons we lost alot of entitites was because the cards were stacked against them, the vets were hungry for blood, they couldn't make enough use of their beta and either went back to alpha or quit the game. That was before we had spark teleport. Now imagine the same scenario if we did... It is not pretty.

Its not even only about mining, its about missions and ratting as well.

I don't understand why this is so hard to understand, increasing force projection will only serve to cut off more breathing room to new perspective powers in the game.

35

(1,455 replies, posted in General discussion)

Shadowmine wrote:

And if you have any kind of tanked termis, you can drop an armoured tp and be out before a gank squad can get to you or kill you...

Will it really matter if you can almost never mine? If you can't mine and do industry, you can't afford to lose bots, you won't be able to last on beta.

New entities need some breathing room to grow else we will always have 30 people in general chat.

EDIT:

Yeah ninja miners will get ganked, it is the nature of the beast. I am not worried about ninja miners too much, I am worried about new beta entities being able to grow.

36

(1,455 replies, posted in General discussion)

Burial wrote:
Sundial wrote:

The only warning they potentially will have is a mass of people sparking to the terminal. You have either 120 seconds to logout or escape the island if you cannot respond to the force (which there is no limit to). In 120 seconds (assuming perfect response time) a miner outside of detection range of the terminal can easily be tackled.

Serves them right for mining that close to a Beta terminal. lol

All you have to do is hold down the target / prevent it from logging off assuming you are the supperior force. Its not difficult for someone to log a cham mk2/troiar mk2 tackle out along with a detector on each beta1 island with a bit larger of population. People have been doing this for ages not new tactics in this game.

1. Login detector, find target
2. Login tackle, tackle target
3. Spark blob that island residents can't respond to
4. Gank target

EDIT:

This goes back to my original point about newer entities that can't respond as well as vets getting abused and ground out of the game...

37

(1,455 replies, posted in General discussion)

Shadowmine wrote:

Ninja mining within sight of a publib beta terminal isn't ninja mining. Its suicide. But so is flagging up outside a public beta terminal...

The detector won't be in detection range of the terminal. The detector has been logged off on the island previously. These are not new tactics in Perpetuum Shadow.

The only warning they potentially will have is a mass of people sparking to the terminal. You have either 120 seconds to logout or escape the island if you cannot respond to the force (which there is no limit to). In 120 seconds (assuming perfect response time) a miner outside of detection range of the terminal can easily be tackled.

38

(1,455 replies, posted in General discussion)

Shadowmine wrote:

The point here is that both attacker and defender both benefit and are penalized by spark teleport. If the attacker sparks into tmb and undocks to go gank, then the defenders can spark in and gank the gankers. It evens out in the end.

Assuming they can beat the attackers force they will. For entities like STC there isn't a bigger fish to worry about. For new beta1 entities I think you will find the exact opposite is true. Force projection always favors the larger/better entity.

39

(1,455 replies, posted in General discussion)

Shadowmine wrote:

I think with higher population undocking from beta 1 terminals unnoticedwill be more difficult than you think.

In a certain radius to the beta 1 terminal "notice" doesn't matter. The target will die.

40

(1,455 replies, posted in General discussion)

Shadowmine wrote:

Consider the following scenario:
4. ...A small quick light ewar squad blood spark to a stocked alpha terminal...

And not a single spark teleport was used.

SpT makes force projection faster and easier, see above.

41

(1,455 replies, posted in General discussion)

Burial wrote:

@ Sundial

Same scenario works with Alpha 2 terminals and without using sparks though, especially if you can't spark your detector around islands due to being spotted.

The main point is that people would literally have to be logged off on an island to arrive to it without being noticed and no cooldown reduces that threat.

Sundial" wrote:

Consider you are watching the terminal, are you going to stop your op everytime some person sparks in?

Just to answer your question. I would try to kill the detector before it sees anything.

When the population increases there will be groups like 62nd again that will use these detector logoff tactics in combination with some kind of force projection. My only point is instant SpT makes it easier on a large part of beta1 islands. The interzone drop works too, but its far more expensive and slower to project the full force to an island.

42

(1,455 replies, posted in General discussion)

Burial wrote:

Just mentioning it here that detector shouldn't be able to get on an island unspotted, even less a full fledged gank squad. Keeping eye on a beta terminal is even easier than worrying about where exactly an interzone could pop in. Either way It's not very hard to detect people coming to your island nowadays thanks to probes.

Consider you are watching the terminal, are you going to stop your op everytime some person sparks in?

Detectors can easily be logged out away from probes.

Consider the following scenario:

1. Gankers stock up all public beta1 terminals with an arsenal.
2. Gankers log off detector on each island.
3. A few times a day, gankers log in the detectors and look for targets of oppurtunity
4. If a gank is possible, spark a quick light ewar gank squad in, kill target. Potentially an interzone teleport could be used to quickly tackle the target by a tackle alt on standby in interzone range.

43

(1,455 replies, posted in General discussion)

Shadowmine wrote:

Removing or limiting spark teleport isn't gonna stop miners getting ganked on Betas. If people wanna sit at TMB all day and hunt miners, they will. All the people that want spark teleport nerfed are just going to sit on betas hunting miners. They want to slow down any response to the point that they can get away safely. At least with the ability to spark there, gankers will have to commit knowing there could be a response coming from somewhere.

What I am saying is now instead of only being able to gank on one island at a time I can easily gank on all 3 with no difference. Force projection. You are assuming all entities are capable of responding with a signifigant force. Thats a big assumption.

The strong don't need anymore help to kill the weak which is exactly what SpT magnifies. Regardless if its STC or some gankers, it amplifies their power to respond to intel.

44

(14 replies, posted in General discussion)

A watched Perpetuum never boils.

45

(1,455 replies, posted in General discussion)

Burial wrote:

It's something that has happend all the time even before sparking, and will continue to happen with or without cooldown. Not much more work to suicide to Alpha2 and come from there. Beta2-s are a lot more appealing now after sparks though.

Anyway, I already suggested it way back to tie sparking to relations. Add faction relations and make each outpost require certain amount. If you are the aggressor and kill someone you loose some amount on the relations.

In the end it makes it so whenever you kill someone on Blue island, you have to either grind your blue relations up(which can be pain if you want to do it on betas and don't own outposts there) or slowly loose the ability to spark to blue outposts. Could even go as far as not being allowed to set home station to any blue terminal, hence not even being able to suicide there.

It was already suggested that one way to balance Alpha and Beta missions is to make it so that Alpha ones just gain lower relation gains and rewards. That would work well with the system I suggested because if your main goal is to gain back relations after gank, you would prefer to use Beta missions.

Yes it will continue to happen with or without SpT. However, since SpT all I need to do as a hunter is go drop a bunch of bots in each of the beta1 terminals, spark around or multibox detectors on the various islands, find a target, spark my squad of hunters to said beta1 terminal do the gank and get out. Basically, the ease at which you can respond to new intel and deploy a force to destroy a target is the thing spark teleport changed. It made it easy with a little preperation to project a force quickly onto a target.

I really like your relations idea btw. Problem is though now that we have moved PvP back to the betas people will complain that the only place they can PvP and not take a relations hit (gamma) is effectively immune to all but seige PvP. So in before posts about PvE rep grind, etc.

EDIT:

Not to mention we would need totally new agression mechanics.

46

(1,455 replies, posted in General discussion)

Burial wrote:
Sundial wrote:

I will adapt to spark teleport for now while the population is low and its less apparent, but I firmly beleive if the population goes back up any new aspiring beta entities will be ground out of the game by easy fast travel, especially ones looking to live on beta 1 islands.

About aspiring beta entities: With the way current SAPs and outpost control work there's not much difference if Sparks are used or not. Both sides know when to come and participate, just because one has spark cooldown won't make him unable to come and defend/attack - but for some reason that's what people think happens. With 5-20 minute notice, a group of players can come from any corner on Alpha to any corner on Beta and with current SAP mechanics, they have a lot longer notice.

Not talking about saps, talking about hunting prey. Once they take the outpost and start operating on the island is when you will see the problems start.

47

(1,455 replies, posted in General discussion)

I will adapt to spark teleport for now while the population is low and its less apparent, but I firmly beleive if the population goes back up any new aspiring beta entities will be ground out of the game by easy fast travel, especially ones looking to live on beta 1 islands.

+1.618

Burial wrote:
Line wrote:

Oh here is an alternate way.

Make it so that Beta outposts are producing epriton automatically for their owner only. That would give a reason for having one, fight for it, fight for disrupting enemy economics etc. Then there will be hauling to gamma, roamers will get their food too. Make the same thing on Gammas with special kind of facility and for Noralgis. Then yes, remove epri from Gammas and forbid nora on Betas. That should give enough trade and traffic between those two, risky and tasty. And still, you need to mine/harvest non-rare material.

As an additional, make rare resources racial, that will make things even funnier and probably will stick ppl to their races or force them to fight for more islands/terminals.

That's not a bad idea(passive beta epri), IF:
- The amount per 24h is small
- There are ways for other sides to disrupt those miners / even put them on stand still.

Bad thing is that it seriously encourages big powerblocks to hold as many outposts as they can, without actually having any use for them other than passive Epriton. Of course if attackers can effortlessly disrupt unprotected passive Epriton mining I don't see it being that big issue. If you have SAPs to protect and passive miners, it becomes tiresome with too many islands.

This sounds like a very familiar problem from cousin steve that was heavily nerfed lately for this exact reason. Large ammounts of passive income just leads to a big blue donut napfest and alliances holding territory not to use it but only to receive passive income.

You should need to be active in your territory to receive bennefits from it.

A small ammount of passive income is ok though, it just can't be overdone. It should be a perk, not the reason to own an outpost itself.

The thing about titan ore though was it is a low value ore that was needed in high quantities only available on safe alpha. At the time a lithus was your best option for moving ore and it could only move a mealy 240u. Epriton is the opposite, a high value ore only available on dangerous beta. We now at least have scarabs and can move three times as much in one bot.

The titan change moved industry into alpha, a low risk low reward area. This change moves epriton to beta, a high risk and now high reward area. The former change didn't really add anything into the game besides moving most industry off of beta into safezones because of limitations in logistics, while this change moves at least part of industry into danger (out of gamma). This is also good for miners as it stops homogenization of all ores in terms of profit. We now have a choice if we want to mine low risk low reward ores or high risk high reward epi and I believe a whole new meta game will develop around it.

Also Tux does have a good point, maybe epi should only be required for the T3 structures at the very least? Its not like epriton isn't needed in massive quantities for heavy mech and T4 production already.