51

(131 replies, posted in Balancing)

Jita wrote:

It depends on what you call stupid. I used a standard mesmer with an injector vs a two neut one drain ictus mk2 with an injector, 3 hardeners, 1 enwar and it wasn't even close.

I will try those fits but withan injector on the Mesmer it will be even more decisive, my Ictus has 3 neuts btw not a drainer as we find drainers far too problematic with new improved jungle land, I also had an injector on Ictus.

52

(131 replies, posted in Balancing)

Jita wrote:

ictus mk2 vs mesmer mk2 will result in a neuted out heavy every time. I dont get the hate.


That statement is utter bull, tried on test server against mesmer mk1 with mag weapons skills to 5, general firing to 5, no critical hit or dispersion skills trained, dead Ictus Mk2 and that is with NO reactor sealing on Mesmer and it still had 30% accum when Ictus died, also both accum skills were only to 7.

Standard fits were used, 3 t4 hardners on Ictus.

So a new player with minimum EP invested in a mesmer can kill an almost maxed Ictus pilot with ease.

Next test, Kain Mk1 on new player EP, Ictus managed to neut out the kain pretty convincingly, up those weapons skills to max and the Kane will destroy Ictus but it is very close

Next Test Kain Mk2 with max weapon skills, easy kill for the Kain.

This was all using standard chemo ammo on the blue bots, not PvP ammo BTW, try it yourself if you don't believe me and do not fit bots stupidly to back up your blatent false premise.

53

(131 replies, posted in Balancing)

Annihilator wrote:

i haven't seen ictus "killing" things for years wink

Exactly, it has one role, trouble is other bots also do that role better and also have a main role, the Ictus can't mine like rivler or harvest like symbiont which are both now better at the Ictus main role, it is useless as a damage platform which the Seth and Mesmer do well, which also do the Ictus role better.

What use is the Ictus when other bots are better at it's role?

That is my question.

54

(131 replies, posted in Balancing)

Syndic wrote:

There's ways and ways around that particular conundrum Nooodlzs. wink

I understand that Syndic but it doesn't change the fact that the Dev's screwed the pooch with their changes.

55

(131 replies, posted in Balancing)

Well I logged in to see if any re balancing changes have been enacted, did a little bit, 12 people in GC, green bots still useless with Ictus at the bottom, rivler and symbiot Mk 1s still better and tougher than an Ictus Mk2, what is the point of the Ictus now?


For your information Anni, yes the Ictus caps out, even with injectors fitted still, it is useless and having specialized in that bot, I feel ripped off.

probably staying away another 2-3 months until I have more SP and at least I can pilot another colour to the same standard as a noob.

56

(28 replies, posted in General discussion)

Annihilator wrote:

ok, because the w(h)ining PvP faction suddenly runs only a smaller selection of bots, "teaches" their new lapdogs whats the "best to use" ... that list is very representative.

Actually it is, comparing the two, the distribution of bots being used has dynamically changed to a few FOTM bots, whereas Octobers listings were a lot more varied.

57

(28 replies, posted in General discussion)

DEV Zoom wrote:

I'm looking at that link but I honestly don't know what you mean. I see all kinds of robots being used.

Killed. FYP

Look at the bots doing the killing maybe, as I mentioned 3 or 4 viable bots now.

58

(149 replies, posted in Balancing)

Burial wrote:

Grophos are not for brawling and Grophos shouldn't be judged against brawlers.

You can say the same for Tyrannos and waspish, so tell me, what are green bots good for now, forget about Ictus because they can't do *** before they are accumulator dry now.

59

(149 replies, posted in Balancing)

Burial wrote:
Syndic wrote:

..  Gropho ..

Gropho is not a brawling bot. It's always been like that. If they make it sturdy as a brawling bot, it's going to be unbeatable at ranged fights because of the missile trajectory and plants.

It's not like it gets speed-hit like Seth and Mesmer for over-tanking. If the shield-tank gets increased it's still going to move at 115+ km/h.

Also, Gropho can improve the tank from leg slots just fine - add accumulator mods.

Once again you are missing the point, you give up leg slots for tank to compete with the other two factions that  utilise those same legs for stabs or whatever, still having to cycle shield.

It seems to me that green bots are the the faction that you cross train into ONCE you have trained one of the other two, good defence, terrible offence.

60

(149 replies, posted in Balancing)

Syndic wrote:
DEV Zoom wrote:

Thanks, that's more useful info.

Btw slightly off topic but here's my take on what happened:
1. Before the patch a lot of the modules were unused due to bad balance, and there were very few ways to competitively fit the robots with the remaining modules.
2. People basically accepted that there were one or two ways at most to fit a certain robot and were happy that it all worked fine, even if it was boring as hell.
3. The patch tried to diversify the way robots can be fitted.
4. This effectively destroyed those few "best" fits.
5. People are still stuck in the past and are desperately trying to fit the robots based on their hard-earned knowledge of those "best" fits.

And I completely understand this reaction, hell even I quit another game when they nerfed a very common but very lazy and lucrative playstyle. But they knew and we knew that if we let that lukewarm state of lazy boredom go on for too long then people will quit anyway. Trying to make a change makes a lot of people angry, and yeah, maybe they quit. But for everyone else who doesn't live in that lazy veteran state of mind (no offence), it's probably a better game. At least once we work out the quirks.

From CIR77 side of things pre-patch the only robot that was considered "worthless" was Arbalest because of it's weak optimal range and necessity to sacrifice all the survivability for speed. At any given moment there were at least 4 different fits and their combinations for light EW's/assaults/EW mechs/heavies based on how we wanted to build a fleet.

We tried to make this patch work on the test server. Ictus is so destroyed I feel bad for all the guys who really enjoy flying that robot. EWar can be made to work, but with 12-14-16-20k buffer tanks you need to bring enough DPS to burn it down faster then it can run to the gate and jump out to Alpha, so no point being able to neutralize someone with EW if you don't have the DPS to kill them.

If the current situation was different but good , nobody would be complaining. Right now when a green-combat + 3 miner-account owner comes online only thing I can tell him is to come as a remote repairer because he's worthless in our fleets as a green robot. It's sad and it's humiliating, but green bots are kinda the armor-drake of Perp right now because they're the only race forced to sacrifice DPS tuning slots to buff their tank. The other two races can buff DPS and tank at the same time, that's a huge disbalance right now.

Thank you Syndic, you have put it far more eloquently than I ever could, because I am that red headed stepchild and, yes, I do feel useless and all this had made me do is play less.

61

(149 replies, posted in Balancing)

Burial wrote:

@Zoom:

1) Should any 3-low light be able to make itself demob immune with 2 new modules and a frame?
2) Is it possible to base the demob resistance bonus by the surface size of the bot?

The way I see it, the module should weight around 500kg (close to a T4 light plate) with any 3-low light being demob immune(57% needed) by fitting 2(30% per). As for assaults, they have more slots, so they’d need 3(20% per) for immunity with the exception of 2 for Arbalest since it gets the bot bonus.

The rationale behind it is that if the module weights more than a decent tank, any demob immune bot can be caught speed-wise by equivalent tanky bot with plates/resists. Immune bots have superior mobility and weaker tank and vulnerable bots have superior tank and weaker mobility. Bigger bots are excluded since they can't catch them.

The problem is the bots that'd benefit the most have the least amount of low slots, hence to base the bonus from the surface size. The smaller the surface size, the bigger the effect. Mechs and heavies should have the bonus at 15% per module.

Sure, it has balancing issues like demob immune Detectors and the likes, but the main idea is: if you give players the ability to build demob immune lights and assaults, you give players the ability to force light and assault fights, as long as they're fast enough not to get caught by speed-fit mechs and heavies(145km/h Kain MK2 for example).

NO BOT SHOULD BE DEMOB IMMUNE.

I agree there should be layers of immunity but that DEMOB should have varying effectiveness on EVERY bot but it should ALWAYS slow it down.

62

(149 replies, posted in Balancing)

DEV Zoom wrote:

Thanks, that's more useful info.

Btw slightly off topic but here's my take on what happened:
1. Before the patch a lot of the modules were unused due to bad balance, and there were very few ways to competitively fit the robots with the remaining modules.
2. People basically accepted that there were one or two ways at most to fit a certain robot and were happy that it all worked fine, even if it was boring as hell.
3. The patch tried to diversify the way robots can be fitted.
4. This effectively destroyed those few "best" fits.
5. People are still stuck in the past and are desperately trying to fit the robots based on their hard-earned knowledge of those "best" .

1. those modules are still not getting used, drainers anyone? although I do admit theory crafting with some of the Nexus modules is interesting, lower EP players still need to concentrate on core skills before even thinking about the more exotic modules, after the patch those core skills are still more important.



2. You had a lot more choice fitting bots pre patch, now it is DPS or GTF, ewar runs out of accumulator after a few cycles and that is on top of the lower RNG nature of them, Enwar will run out of accumulator before it has done it's job on ONE heavy.

3. Only on 3 or 4 bots which are now FOTM, everything else is pretty subpar, even then there is one cookie cutter fit which EVERYONE is using, check kill boards, maybe you think this May have diversified PVE but it has wrecked PVP.

4. No, those fits are still viable on the FOTM bots.

5. I'm not stuck in the past at all, just stupid putting all my EP into a bot that probably takes the most EP in game to maximise that is now just a distraction at best.


You have actually made the choice of modules for DPS bots set in stone, now they don't need to fit reactor sealings or ECCM anymore ( which they didn't anyway but now they have become redundant modules)

As Syndic put it, why bring anything but DPS, they are much more effective because they now have no counters, it's become tuners online.

63

(149 replies, posted in Balancing)

DEV Zoom wrote:
Nooodlzs wrote:

If you are using the same standard fit on waspish as the other 2 factions, you are doing it wrong the waspish is shield tanked

Hence why I asked for actual numbers and fittings, because for all I know you could be comparing extremities.

I understand that but cannot log in ATM to give you figures as I am away from home but it is obvious that from being a viable assault the waspish has become shunned in preference to the other 2 factions which are now FAR more viable in that role, the only thing that did make it viable was that range bonus, nothing else.

Another point I should make is that the undemobable bonus that the other 2 factions gain from plates are useless on the waspish as it is shield tanked, yeah you could fit plates (lol) but then it becomes slower than a scarab (now that is an exaggeration) xD.

64

(149 replies, posted in Balancing)

DEV Zoom wrote:

Well define "slow", if I use a the same standard fit on all assaults then the difference is about 5 kph.

If you are using the same standard fit on waspish as the other 2 factions, you are doing it wrong the waspish is shield tanked

65

(149 replies, posted in Balancing)

Ok, you didn't like that suggestion, I'll try again.

Firstly NO bot should be undemobable, it negates a role that newer players can easily get into with not much ep, demob resistance though, is something that could be implemented.

Green bots

Waspish, of all the assaults the waspish needs the most skills, is the slowest by quite a margin, lowest damage and it's range bonus made it useful, now it is out ranged by both other factions and slower by far, the only advantage it has left is LOS negating missiles but with the terrain/ forest changes that is not an advantage any more.

More to come xD.

66

(41 replies, posted in General discussion)

DEV Zoom wrote:
Nooodlzs wrote:

Well when you bring a patch out that leaves only 3 or 4 viable bots with no counters and the rest sub par.

That's also a problem when players say things like that, because I know that you're exaggerating. When the feedback is mostly about panicking and thinking in black or white, we can't do much about it. (See also "xy is useless now", my favorite feedback.)


You have just brought out a 'balance' patch and 140/150 kph undemobable arbelests are untouched, green bots unusable and ewar useless (even more so now with s demob using more accum) can you point to the roles they are supposed to fulfill?

67

(41 replies, posted in General discussion)

Well when you bring a patch out that leaves only 3 or 4 viable bots with no counters and the rest sub par.

People have paid for credits to get accelerated training and now some of us are left with no options to be competitive.

What would you like us to do, pay more money to respec?

68

(28 replies, posted in General discussion)

Burial wrote:

You got to admit, at least, it gives you some form of advantage. Otherwise you wouldn't be using it and much less make a thread when it breaks down.

Is that 'advantage' similar to the advantage some people got by constant farming of beacons in pits on gamma for almost a year, using explosion damage to be able to do do 30+ at one time and making untold billions of NIC for months.

After lining pockets with all that NIC, screamed blue murder on the forums to get Beta farming destroyed when a few new players were managing to use explosion damage to their advantage to do 3 beacons at a time.

You and your corp mates profited hugely from that gamma pit farming and the biggest ticket writer and whiner, Jita, was another.

Back to the isboxer problem, please explain how someone controlling mining bots via isboxer can make more NIC than someone controlling them manually, they can't, it is just easier to control and less RSA inducing clickfest.

No, for your information, I do not have a problem with someone using isboxer in a game that has been designed around multiple accounts and no, I do not use it myself.

69

(71 replies, posted in General discussion)

Smokeyii wrote:

I kinda like the patch. It's *** in all the right ways.

You're saying that as a Seth pilot;), I know how you feel, I'm gonna enjoy one soon.

70

(47 replies, posted in General discussion)

Annihilator wrote:

ok, when Ictuses are so useless nowadays...

wtf are those two on my killmail doing there??

Because we both put ALL our limited EP into them, what do you want me to pilot, an arkhe?


I have 750k EP in green bots, almost all specialising in the Ictus, I have terrible missile skills also I cannot pilot any other faction.

Or would you like me to chuck some RL money at the DEV team to respec into yellow bots, no chance of that happening now after THAT patch, I have learnt that my limited EP is not safe, so why would I waste money respeccing when further down the line my change gets nerfed into uselessness and green becomes strong as hell.

Notice how the Mk1 was destroyed with consummate ease by yourselves without doing anything of significance.


We are not discussing how useless the Ictus is (which it is now) but how useless it is compared to NON Enwar bots, why train for one when almost every other bot is better at it's specialised job with the added advantage that they can do another job also.

Just look at the market now, no Ictus MK2 for sale and no buy orders up, anywhere.....

71

(47 replies, posted in General discussion)

Ozy wrote:

the main disadvantage of the neut seth was its more limited range, and that's still the case. At least if you want a Seth that can take similar levels of damage as the Ictus.

This is not a disadvantage anymore, it is now a shotgun range game.

BeastmodeGuNs wrote:

Or, people just arn't afraid to experiment

They are all sh*tfits, what use is range when the whole planet has been covered in jungles.

I undocked the other day and was stuck in the middle of one with no way to get out, I was in a Trojar with neuts and had to wait for someone to kill the plants, I was out of range of the docking.

73

(0 replies, posted in Bugs)

As you have made almost every other bot in the game a better Enwar Bot than the Ictus with the Rivler/Symbiont top of the pile, I would like to use the Ictus to mine but you seem to have forgoten to add bonus for mining modules.


Please rectify this.

Zortarg wrote:

you are comparing a heavy mech class with a mech class robot. not realy a good one. if you want to compare to industrial then you have to compare to termis/gargoyle.

using your logic i could complain that a kain does less dmg then a mesmer...


Please feel free to point me to the Enwar specialist Heavy Mech robot.

Dazamin wrote:

I disagree, its just different now, of course your playstyle might have been affected, that doesn't by definition make it more unbalanced. You may notice that all EWar bots were essentially nerfed, I wonder why??? :iiam: The Ictus was hit hard because of its non standard bonus setup, if required an adjustment to the base level, as with mining can be used I would think, but its not gonna be what it was (I hope).

When a Rivler/Symbiont Mk1 can neut 354*4 V Ictus Mk2 443*3 with a better accumalator and recharge time, far better resists AND more armour, 10kph faster, also taking less EP, there is something seriously wrong with the nerf.

Use a Symbiont/Rivler Mk2 and it shows that all my EP into Ictus was wasted.