51 (edited by XB63A 2010-12-23 07:25:38)

Re: Devs Completely Cave to PVPers

Savin wrote:
postman wrote:

in every other game i have played in the last 6 or so years, the devs have "caved" to the pve crowd ruining some games with that had great potential, AoC is a good example of this.

deleting cargo before a pvp skirmish is a *** move and if its that big of a deal then you should probably find a game with less risk. i hear wow just had a big expac and you dont have to worry about losing anything in pvp except your internet honor.

thanks dev team for catering to the pvpers. as a pvper i would really like to see some purple flying unicorns in the next patch.

Ah, now it starts to make sense: some people need to feel that they are causing as much grief as possible to as many people as possible.

A simple victory, with a corresponding loss of mech, is not enough punishment: you want a defeat so devastating, so horrible, that the loser instantly quits, leaving you, the victor alone on top of the heap, trophy in one hand, d1ck in the other.

In other words, you're a child.

I hope this isn't a revelation. There are those among us that get great joy from other peoples pain. And they enjoy, even relish just the thought, of inflicting that pain on others anonymously with no consequences. A child, no .... it is something much darker.

The retort: 'It is just a game' is not sufficient. A game is about a challenge/entertainment in the game. If you are going for real life QQ, then is more than just the game.

Re: Devs Completely Cave to PVPers

XB63A wrote:

I hope this isn't a revelation. There are those among us that get great joy from other peoples pain. And they enjoy, even relish just the thought, of inflicting that pain on others anonomously with no consequenses. A child, no .... it is something much darker.

No, it certainly isn't a revelation- I know these types all too well.

The sad thing is that there are plenty of people who know and do better- for them, it's about excitement and creativity. I keep hoping to meet these people, but instead end up with kids who actually invest their self-image in a bunch of pixels.

All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful - Kohelet Rabbah 7:16

"My transaction log shows all my NIC was from selling kernals.  All of it."
"Savin's outrage tears are the best tears." - Anonymous ***

Re: Devs Completely Cave to PVPers

Savin wrote:

Ah, now it starts to make sense: some people need to feel that they are causing as much grief as possible to as many people as possible.

Not really. We just want a small reward for spending our time. PvPers don't get that instant 5m/hour for being afk in a termis. I guess you don't know how rarely you get the chance to engage a juicy target.

Savin wrote:

A simple victory, with a corresponding loss of mech, is not enough punishment: you want a defeat so devastating, so horrible, that the loser instantly quits, leaving you, the victor alone on top of the heap, trophy in one hand, d1ck in the other.

In other words, you're a child.

LOL. Your arguments are flawed. The PvEr (victim) loose nothing he wouldn't loose anyway. Difference is that the victor gets rewarded with loot. Why would you want to deprive the victor from a reward? Maybe YOU are the child.

Re: Devs Completely Cave to PVPers

Kaito Kurusaki wrote:

Not really. We just want a small reward for spending our time. PvPers don't get that instant 5m/hour for being afk in a termis. I guess you don't know how rarely you get the chance to engage a juicy target.

I wish I could concede this point to you, but it is obviously not the case for several of the posters above. But you may be one of those for whom this is true- if so, then you make a good and arguable point- which children such as Postman have not done.

Why not argue on those terms? You'll get more out of it.

Savin wrote:

Your arguments are flawed. The PvEr (victim) loose nothing he wouldn't loose anyway. Difference is that the victor gets rewarded with loot. Why would you want to deprive the victor from a reward? Maybe YOU are the child.

No, my argument is quite sound, and your attempt to turn it around is ham-fisted.

You assume that I wish to deny you your loot: please quote where I have made such an implication, because I would like to improve my writing if that is the case. I'm not on either side of the argument, as it seems silly to me- but I had not considered the point you made above, which makes the issue a bit more relevant, so thank you for pointing it out.

Now, as for the rest, how does denying you the loot deny you the reward? Does it erase the victory from the leaderboards? Does it stop having potential implications regarding the influence of your alliance? As far as I know, these are the rewards of victory, and they appear not to be going away.

All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful - Kohelet Rabbah 7:16

"My transaction log shows all my NIC was from selling kernals.  All of it."
"Savin's outrage tears are the best tears." - Anonymous ***

Re: Devs Completely Cave to PVPers

Indian River wrote:

ok
half a silver platter as equipment isn't enough loot for you

of course you are ignoring the whole "special" rule thing

how about a tit for tat since you PVPers have been given a golden goose by god (Devs) how about us PVEers get one too

you got half the game where you can drive around and never worry about getting killed by players. If that is so important for you, just stay out of the beta islands.

56 (edited by Kaito Kurusaki 2010-12-23 09:52:44)

Re: Devs Completely Cave to PVPers

Savin wrote:
Kaito Kurusaki wrote:

Not really. We just want a small reward for spending our time. PvPers don't get that instant 5m/hour for being afk in a termis. I guess you don't know how rarely you get the chance to engage a juicy target.

I wish I could concede this point to you, but it is obviously not the case for several of the posters above. But you may be one of those for whom this is true- if so, then you make a good and arguable point- which children such as Postman have not done.

Why not argue on those terms? You'll get more out of it.

Uhm I'm confused. You have no counter arguments, so it's impossible to arque it any further.

Savin wrote:
Kaito Kurusaki wrote:

Your arguments are flawed. The PvEr (victim) loose nothing he wouldn't loose anyway. Difference is that the victor gets rewarded with loot. Why would you want to deprive the victor from a reward? Maybe YOU are the child.

No, my argument is quite sound, and your attempt to turn it around is ham-fisted.

You assume that I wish to deny you your loot: please quote where I have made such an implication, because I would like to improve my writing if that is the case. I'm not on either side of the argument, as it seems silly to me- but I had not considered the point you made above, which makes the issue a bit more relevant, so thank you for pointing it out.

Now, as for the rest, how does denying you the loot deny you the reward? Does it erase the victory from the leaderboards? Does it stop having potential implications regarding the influence of your alliance? As far as I know, these are the rewards of victory, and they appear not to be going away.

You wish to deny the loot from the victor. Your only arguments is based around the other artificial rewards. That's wouldn't even work in counterstrike. Mhat if the Terrorist team could delete all their weapons before they die to prevent the CTs from getting them?

The quality of the kill is either the challenge of the fight or the economic impact/reward of the loss/loot. There is no persistent leaderboard atm. And it DOES affect your alliance when less players are willing to do PVP when the risk vs reward is stacked soo rediculously igainst you.

Spending 40min on tracking down a couple arganos is actually detrimental to your own progress. You get maybe 50k worth of cargo when you could have made 1m from farming kernels.

Re: Devs Completely Cave to PVPers

Savin wrote:

Now, as for the rest, how does denying you the loot deny you the reward? Does it erase the victory from the leaderboards? Does it stop having potential implications regarding the influence of your alliance? As far as I know, these are the rewards of victory, and they appear not to be going away.

My problem with deleting cargo before dying is that the risk/reward seems out of balance to me. When you are on a pvp island for mining you know the risks, but the rewards of getting out with a cargo hold full of epitron could cover your loses after one trip in a light bot. The PvPer is risking his bot for the off chance that they can snag someone to fight and don't run into an overwhelming force on another alliance's home island. If the soon to be dead player deletes his cargo the PvPer is left with a 50% chance at looting whatever was equipped. Imagine having to track down that epic npc with the phat loots but after you kill it you are left with 50% chance of a standard level drop. The "Most Dangerous Agent" list was flawed until this last patch and I think it does make it a little better to get credit for real kills.

Personally I have not and will not dump my cargo because when I got blown up I know what I was risking going in and believe that the victor should be rewarded.

Re: Devs Completely Cave to PVPers

Kaito Kurusaki wrote:

Uhm I'm confused. You have no counter arguments, so it's impossible to arque it any further.

Yes, you are. I was not arguing for anything there: thus, no counter-arguments. My point was that by framing it in terms of income, much like farming, you raise a sound argument. If others had made such an argument, this would have been a decent discussion.

Kaito Kurusaki wrote:

The quality of the kill is either the challenge of the fight or the economic impact/reward of the loss/loot. There is no persistent leaderboard atm. And it DOES affect your alliance when less players are willing to do PVP when the risk vs reward is stacked soo rediculously igainst you.

I'm aware that the leaderboard is not consistent (not persistent) at the moment; perhaps that will change for the better soon.

And again, you make a good point: if fewer players would be willing to PvP because they could not get loot, that certainly would affect the game's dynamic.

On the other hand, I guess we'd have to examine just how much of a factor loot would be. I find it hard to believe that anyone makes a profit (or even a living) from PvP- the benefits would lie in the abundant resources and superior facilities that PvP provide, wouldn't they?

All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful - Kohelet Rabbah 7:16

"My transaction log shows all my NIC was from selling kernals.  All of it."
"Savin's outrage tears are the best tears." - Anonymous ***

Re: Devs Completely Cave to PVPers

Embo wrote:

Personally I have not and will not dump my cargo because when I got blown up I know what I was risking going in and believe that the victor should be rewarded.

That's very honorable of you; I hope some of the players who benefit give you some props next time.

You make a good point about the risk/reward balance, much like Kaito's. But I wonder if that's really the intention behind loot in the first place- it seems to me that the game is designed to reward PvPers through the island control mechanic, and that loot, if any, is more of a bonus.

All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful - Kohelet Rabbah 7:16

"My transaction log shows all my NIC was from selling kernals.  All of it."
"Savin's outrage tears are the best tears." - Anonymous ***

Re: Devs Completely Cave to PVPers

I am a pvp early access guy and I think it's a *** change about a penman that didnt exist.

61 (edited by Kaito Kurusaki 2010-12-23 10:55:05)

Re: Devs Completely Cave to PVPers

Savin wrote:

I find it hard to believe that anyone makes a profit (or even a living) from PvP- the benefits would lie in the abundant resources and superior facilities that PvP provide, wouldn't they?

Maybe if resources and facilities were scarce. But currently it's accessible to every member of a medium+ corp.

You can mine epi solo with a sequer alt.

Re: Devs Completely Cave to PVPers

can't empty my cargo while fighting loads npcs means i have to run away exit combat and empty cargo if i happen to be full and want to pick up the t4 rare that dropped in the swarm fight *** change. you either can or can't destroy cargo make up your mind

Re: Devs Completely Cave to PVPers

As above, this change effects PvE making it more of a PITA.

You either loot only what you need which is a lot of tedious micro management right clicking or you loot all (hotkeyable and convenient) but then have to disengage to destroy whatever is crap.

As you get close to your cargo limit this means that if you loot all, you have to disengage every 2 or 3 mobs.

Fully support that being able to destroy your loot in a PvP encounter is completly lame so ask the Devs for a more elegant solution.

Re: Devs Completely Cave to PVPers

I wanted the "Jettison" function.

Re: Devs Completely Cave to PVPers

Killer Prawn wrote:

Be thankful that you can delete items in the field at all.

How exactly are you making this cargo magically dissapear anyway?


how exactly are you magically picking up the loot in the can anyway?

Re: Devs Completely Cave to PVPers

What the hell are you people doing in the beta islands if you can't stand the fact that someone could actually take your precious pixels away. neutral

67 (edited by postman 2010-12-23 15:25:32)

Re: Devs Completely Cave to PVPers

Savin wrote:

Ah, now it starts to make sense: some people need to feel that they are causing as much grief as possible to as many people as possible.

A simple victory, with a corresponding loss of mech, is not enough punishment: you want a defeat so devastating, so horrible, that the loser instantly quits, leaving you, the victor alone on top of the heap, trophy in one hand, d1ck in the other.

In other words, you're a child.

risk vs reward.

if you were about to get mugged do you think you would have the time to stop, take all of the money out of your purse  and burn it  then get a pair a scissors and cut all of your credit cards as the mugger approaches you with a gun?

your going to lose your cargo regardless if you die in pvp, why does it really matter if it disappears into virtual nothingness or the guy that killed you has a 50% chance of getting it? Is deleting all of the cargo before you die some carebear form of last minute retribution? are you really carrying that much on your mech that it cant be replaced relatively easily?

This also has nothing to do with a being a child. Yes its a trophy and i play with my *** several times a day, but its a competitive pvp game. If i wanted mindless no risk pvp i would be playing an FPS or WoW. Its a game mechanic, deal with the change. If you don't like it leave and stop *** up the forums.

68 (edited by Lupus Aurelius 2010-12-23 16:19:29)

Re: Devs Completely Cave to PVPers

Looting the field is the only NIC reward for PVP.  Most Dangerous Agent ratings just shows who does it more often ( if even that, due to the "arkie farming trick. is not accurate - Neoxx showed that with his post, and we all know Texnik was doing it, cause he loses more than he kills...) and is not a reward, it's a reputation.

In order to justify risking personal assets in pvp, there has to be an incentive.  Territory control, for assets and outposts, as an incentive, is not a reward, it's an ongoing risk.  There is no real benefit to controlling an outpost, merely a dangerous luxury, and slightly improved industry slots, and the only thing you can't get on alpha is epiton.

Pvp is a huge part of this game, and unless you want another Hello Kitty Online, it needs to be unrestrained and offer sufficient rewards to justify the risk.  Without loot drops from bots, and cargo, that reward is non-existant.  Yes, regardless, the target still loses their cargo, you still have an economic impact on your foe, and yes, you do it often enough, and you look good on the kill ratings.  But you make squat, and the time you spent hunting down that kill could have been applied to making nic, and been far more profitable.  There needs to be an incentive to pvp, other than incursion events, to keep the game interesting and dynamic.

In the gods we trust, all others bring data!

Re: Devs Completely Cave to PVPers

kekz wrote:

can't empty my cargo while fighting loads npcs means i have to run away exit combat and empty cargo if i happen to be full and want to pick up the t4 rare that dropped in the swarm fight *** change. you either can or can't destroy cargo make up your mind


stfu and bring a field container with you like everyone else.

Re: Devs Completely Cave to PVPers

kids these days - i swear
can't you read?

lets put this very simply

the PVPers got a SPECIAL rule created just for them because they cried loud and hard (not all of them of course as some of them seem to agree with this point, just the most whiney)

caps might help

YOUR EITHER CAN OR YOU CAN'T DELETE FROM CARGO - - - simple

now i don't mind (much) having my time stolen (yes my time which is represented by my cargo) since i'm on beta solo but i don't like the fact the powers that be have granted special dispensation here

there would be huge groaning and moaning all over alpha if this special rule was applied thoughout the game, therefore it should be removed

this was handled very poorly by the devs - very poorly

71 (edited by Lupus Aurelius 2010-12-23 17:02:35)

Re: Devs Completely Cave to PVPers

Indian River wrote:

kids these days - i swear
can't you read?

Apparently not, since you continue to misread/spin the replys to suit your personal agenda.

Indian River wrote:

lets put this very simply

Well, that apperently lies within your cognitive capablities...

Indian River wrote:

the PVPers got a SPECIAL rule created just for them because they cried loud and hard (not all of them of course as some of them seem to agree with this point, just the most whiney)

No.  The Devs, based on player input, determined that the feature, as it was defined, did not take into account that a agent merely had to delete their cargo in order to deny it as a loot drop from their loss.  It was probably never considered an issue, since it did not occur to them that players would do such.  PVP requires a reward incentive, and currently, the only real reward incentive is loot drops.  Because it does not fit with what you personally want it to be, it's "whiney", but tht is your opinion that you are trying to sell to everyone else.

Indian River wrote:

this was handled very poorly by the devs - very poorly

Yes it was - their solution literally has changed nothing.  All a agent has to do is to keep an eye on the radar, and as soon as an enemy appears, delete all their cargo, since the "fix" is based on the target being combat engaged by another agent.  So you still have the time that it takes for them to go from 1000m away until they are within shooting range to delete your cargo.  It's a ridiculous solution that changed absolutely nothing, and added an issue to farmers when engaed by a spawn to delete crap cargo to pick up a drop. 

So you got one item correct, even if for the wrong reasons...

In the gods we trust, all others bring data!

Re: Devs Completely Cave to PVPers

PVE should not be affected by the deletion of stuff in your cargo. I see no point in having this feature in a PVE encounter. It makes it hard to gather loot now, not impossibly hard, but harder nevertheless.

Re: Devs Completely Cave to PVPers

In a perfect world the alpha islands would still allow you to delete cargo. When you are on beta the option to delete cargo is gone. I think this would appease both sides.

74

Re: Devs Completely Cave to PVPers

To the OP...maybe take a few minutes to gather your thoughts and think about something before posting.

For example, being unable to delete all cargo before you're destroyed isn't magical, it's realistic. Magical would be..."I'm being attacked, let me push a button and have all my cargo magically disappear."

Re: Devs Completely Cave to PVPers

postman wrote:

risk vs reward.

[... stuff copied from other posters plus a little more tough guy posturing... ]

Far too little, far too late. Why not sit back and let the adults handle this?

All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful - Kohelet Rabbah 7:16

"My transaction log shows all my NIC was from selling kernals.  All of it."
"Savin's outrage tears are the best tears." - Anonymous ***