Re: The official: nerf ewar thread

Gremrod wrote:
Kaldenines wrote:
Gremrod wrote:

My views are my own also.

But what if both sides bring ewar? Then it wouldn't be a indefinite stunlock, correct?

Only if you have very similar numbers of ewar on each side.  Once one side starts to win it becomes easy to lock down the smaller force.


So lets say ewar is nerfed. But the numbers on both sides of the fight doesn't change. (Meaning one side still out numbers the other side)

Wouldn't we be in the same boat?

Kaldenines wrote:

When you have a straight gun fight, both sides get the chance to shoot each-other.  If one side is completely jammed out after the first few seconds, it's not really a fight.

+1
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52 (edited by Martha Stuart 2014-05-06 20:54:00)

Re: The official: nerf ewar thread

I don't think EWAR needs to be nerfed, I just think counter ewar needs to be buffed.  My biggest problem with EWAR is that to effectively counter ECMs you have to completely destroy your fits.  A heavy shouldnt require a full rack of eccms to not get locked out.  Instead of the nerf bat, can't we just buff eccms?  Or just an across the board increase to bots sensor strength. 

I agree with gremrod, nerfing ewar will do nothing when your facing 3x your numbers.

53 (edited by Gremrod 2014-05-06 20:59:40)

Re: The official: nerf ewar thread

Martha Stuart wrote:

I don't think EWAR needs to be nerfed, I just think counter ewar needs to be buffed.  My biggest problem with EWAR is that to effectively counter ECMs you have to completely destroy your fits.  A heavy shouldnt require a full rack of eccms to not get locked out.  Instead of the nerf bat, can't we just buff eccms?  Or just an across the board increase to bots sensor strength. 

I agree with gremrod, nerfing ewar will do nothing when your facing 3x your numbers.


You can't balance specific robot stats or module stats when the force is something the DEVS cannot control. i.e. the number of people each side brings to a fight.

They put interference and AOE damage into the game to try and control the numbers issue.

But it would be bad to buff or nerf robots and modules based on numbers brought to fights.

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54 (edited by Ozy 2014-05-06 22:30:43)

Re: The official: nerf ewar thread

Gremrod wrote:

You can't balance specific robot stats or module stats when the force is something the DEVS cannot control. i.e. the number of people each side brings to a fight.

They put interference and AOE damage into the game to try and control the numbers issue.

But it would be bad to buff or nerf robots and modules based on numbers brought to fights.

To iterate further on martha's line of thought here: If a heavy fits 4 ECCMs in his headslots, ECMs, a high-EP vaga with a single ECM tuner still has a 25% chance of jamming the heavy ... which basically means that the heavy WILL get jammed out at least once every 10 seconds. This doesn't really seem appropriate in terms of benefits (mediocre protection against jamming) vs cost (almost all headslots). If we look at items like plates, armour/shield hardeners, amps, etc., the conferred benefits do correspond better with the cost.

So, i'd be tentatively in favour of thinking about either new modules or ways this can be adjusted.

P.S. I'm basing this on a unit v unit comparison.

Re: The official: nerf ewar thread

Ozy wrote:
Gremrod wrote:

You can't balance specific robot stats or module stats when the force is something the DEVS cannot control. i.e. the number of people each side brings to a fight.

They put interference and AOE damage into the game to try and control the numbers issue.

But it would be bad to buff or nerf robots and modules based on numbers brought to fights.

To iterate further on martha's line of thought here: If a heavy fits 4 ECCMs in his headslots, ECMs, a high-EP vaga with a single ECM tuner still has a 25% chance of jamming the heavy ... which basically means that the heavy WILL get jammed out at least once every 10 seconds. This doesn't really seem appropriate in terms of benefits (mediocre protection against jamming) vs cost (almost all headslots). If we look at items like plates, armour/shield hardeners, amps, etc., the conferred benefits do correspond better with the cost.

So, i'd be tentatively in favour of thinking about either new modules or ways this can be adjusted.

P.S. I'm basing this on a unit v unit comparison.

I'm not trolling you...but...  If...well.. I think I now know why your failing at ewar.

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Re: The official: nerf ewar thread

Kaldenines wrote:

Just for the record, my views are my own, I am not a representative for any corporation.

MoBIoS wrote:

In before closed.

It´s a game of rock, paper, scissors, so what´s wrong with the ewar again?

I think the problem with the current ewar mechanic is that its similar to an indefinite stunlock, something that most other MMOs have learned to avoid in this day and age.


Except you're not stunlocked. This isnt eve, you can relock right away in this game. a Vaga2 focusing solely on a non-ECCMed mech can't lock it down so that it does 0 damage. Its not a stunlock, its an inconvenience that you guys havent figured out how to counter yet.

Re: The official: nerf ewar thread

do you guys really just field vagas?
no supressors that can make the target that just lost its lock, have 3 times the locktime with a much higher chance of success then the actual ECM, while that doesnt matter because the supression lasts long enough for another ECM to hit ?

no demob that prevents the target from moving in the meantime, unless its a big battle where lwfs are only on shielded mechs?

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Re: The official: nerf ewar thread

So you just pointed out how it takes 1 vaga, half a zenith, and another bot tackling to slow down 1 non-eccmed bot. That's actually quite the argument for BUFFING ewar.

Re: The official: nerf ewar thread

Ozy wrote:
Gremrod wrote:

You can't balance specific robot stats or module stats when the force is something the DEVS cannot control. i.e. the number of people each side brings to a fight.

They put interference and AOE damage into the game to try and control the numbers issue.

But it would be bad to buff or nerf robots and modules based on numbers brought to fights.

To iterate further on martha's line of thought here: If a heavy fits 4 ECCMs in his headslots, ECMs, a high-EP vaga with a single ECM tuner still has a 25% chance of jamming the heavy ... which basically means that the heavy WILL get jammed out at least once every 10 seconds. This doesn't really seem appropriate in terms of benefits (mediocre protection against jamming) vs cost (almost all headslots). If we look at items like plates, armour/shield hardeners, amps, etc., the conferred benefits do correspond better with the cost.

So, i'd be tentatively in favour of thinking about either new modules or ways this can be adjusted.

P.S. I'm basing this on a unit v unit comparison.

If you're basing this on a unit v unit comparison, the mesmer wins because the vagabond can never kill it.

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60 (edited by Ozy 2014-05-07 01:41:03)

Re: The official: nerf ewar thread

Ville wrote:

I'm not trolling you...but...  If...well.. I think I now know why your failing at ewar.

lol. because our vagas are using ecm tunings? tongue
This was a purely theoretical look at the viability of protecting yourself against getting jammed out. I get that it's fun for you to bring everything back to ad-hominems and away from actual arguments, but i don't care much for it. Never have.

Syndic wrote:

If you're basing this on a unit v unit comparison, the mesmer wins because the vagabond can never kill it.

Neither could ever "win". The vaga can't kill the heavy and the heavy can neither catch the ewar nor keep it locked. Problem is, if we're looking at it in terms of effectiveness, the vaga is actually fulfilling its purpose while the heavy is heavily impeded from doing so, even if it maximises its ecm defenses.

That aside, i'm not actually advocating for anything ... yet. I do think that if nerfing ewar ever is on the table, this is the aspect that should be looked at, and not the ewar bots themselves.

61

Re: The official: nerf ewar thread

Tund Bungler wrote:

Except you're not stunlocked. This isnt eve, you can relock right away in this game. a Vaga2 focusing solely on a non-ECCMed mech can't lock it down so that it does 0 damage. Its not a stunlock, its an inconvenience that you guys havent figured out how to counter yet.

This is rather incorrect. Two ECM tuners, 4 ECMs, spider rsas .... depending on your enemy's lock-time, you can take 2 - 4 non eccm'ed bots out of the fight in perpetuity as you get more than 100% hit chance against any bot with good skills

Re: The official: nerf ewar thread

The vaga is definitely not fulfilling it's purpose if it's using all the ECM's to keep 1 heavy irritated.

Also, ECM's on a Vagabond have a very small range.

You can argue EW NEXUS, I can argue Farlock/Fastlock NEXUS.

A fleet composition is much more then theorycrafting the best possible bots and adding them together. I still laugh at those ECM zeniths with autocannons, it's memeworthy.

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63 (edited by Ozy 2014-05-07 03:02:30)

Re: The official: nerf ewar thread

Syndic wrote:

The vaga is definitely not fulfilling it's purpose if it's using all the ECM's to keep 1 heavy irritated.

Also, ECM's on a Vagabond have a very small range.

You can argue EW NEXUS, I can argue Farlock/Fastlock NEXUS.

A fleet composition is much more then theorycrafting the best possible bots and adding them together. I still laugh at those ECM zeniths with autocannons, it's memeworthy.


It's only one heavy if that heavy's using 4 eccms. For the other extreme, check the post above. As for the range ... I don't remember exactly, but aren't 600m pretty easy to reach with a single RE? As for the other stuff, it's not wrong but not really part of the ecm vs eccm thing i was talking about.

Here's a (maybe) interesting point: If we reversed both of these modules mechanically in terms of hit probabilities, you'd pretty much always suffer from extreme inconstancy due to RNG on your ecms (unless you went with a lot of tuners) and your opponent would be able to make his bot 100% immune to the ECM by reaching a certain signal strength. I don't think anyone would particularly like this and it'd instantly invalidate ecms. This, i think, is something to think about when discussing the current ecm vs eccm function and i do feel that it does warrant at least thinking about ways to improve how ecms are/can be countered.

P.S. Who actually used a zenith with ECMs and auto-cannons?

Re: The official: nerf ewar thread

I'd ask the same thing about who the hell uses ECM tunings? Only corp I know lives on alpha and doesnt PVP.

Re: The official: nerf ewar thread

Syndic wrote:

The vaga is definitely not fulfilling it's purpose if it's using all the ECM's to keep 1 heavy irritated.

Also, ECM's on a Vagabond have a very small range.

You can argue EW NEXUS, I can argue Farlock/Fastlock NEXUS.

A fleet composition is much more then theorycrafting the best possible bots and adding them together. I still laugh at those ECM zeniths with autocannons, it's memeworthy.

Syndic, I wasn't going to say that outright.

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Re: The official: nerf ewar thread

Tund Bungler wrote:

I'd ask the same thing about who the hell uses ECM tunings? Only corp I know lives on alpha and doesnt PVP.

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Re: The official: nerf ewar thread

Jita wrote:
Tund Bungler wrote:

I'd ask the same thing about who the hell uses ECM tunings? Only corp I know lives on alpha and doesnt PVP.

Ecm tuning on a zenith crew checking in

With its pluses and minuses looking forward to day when fittings are part of kill mails.

Re: The official: nerf ewar thread

There was a whole big nice thread about that already.

1300m+ for supressors is slightly to much - either Nexus or supressor base range needs to be tweaked. And while a single ECM jamming chances are fine, unlimited number of them affected on a single target brings that chance sky high, no matter how many ECCM you will fit.

A brand new fresh look tho - using ewar modules could drastically increase interference output, at least limiting an amount of ewar bots on a square meter.

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Re: The official: nerf ewar thread

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Re: The official: nerf ewar thread

So the crusade vs ewar ... shocking

I haven't read a single sentence in how you try to counter ewar by

A) Bring proper EWAR and not that half *** stuff you bring like boxing zeniths...  Or a cham mk2 charging vs a fleet lol.  All you bring is dps.  There is no more BS about i train this or that because the extension downgrade system.

B) Make people play logistic or buff bot.  You all want to PEW PEW nobody wants to RSA or run an Indy with support modules.

C) Observers at Hokk miss your fleets O/

71 (edited by Rage Rex 2014-05-07 07:58:51)

Re: The official: nerf ewar thread

Line wrote:

There was a whole big nice thread about that already.

1300m+ for supressors is slightly to much - either Nexus or supressor base range needs to be tweaked. And while a single ECM jamming chances are fine, unlimited number of them affected on a single target brings that chance sky high, no matter how many ECCM you will fit.

A brand new fresh look tho - using ewar modules could drastically increase interference output, at least limiting an amount of ewar bots on a square meter.

1300? Was that the awesome single ECM Zenith Mk2 fit Hunter innovated? Tell me what do you need to then LOCK that far out? Are you complaining about ewar or Zenith Mk2s or the fact there are no stacking penalties on range extenders?

I welcome stacking penalties on range extenders as well as all other tunings. If you are so concerned about EWAR RANGE then lets just nerf stacking. Done.

I'll miss my 1300 single ECM fit Zenith, but its for the good of the game.

72 (edited by BandwagonX9000 2014-05-07 07:57:45)

Re: The official: nerf ewar thread

ITT: STC demanding corps to tell them how to play, or nerf the game. I guess you gotta do something while you "outlast".

73 (edited by Syndic 2014-05-07 08:28:59)

Re: The official: nerf ewar thread

Look, since you don't know how this works let me explain it in simple words:

You have two choices with EWar;
a) Shotgun fit for close range
b) Sniper fit for long range

What this directly affects is the size of your EWar "web". Your "EWeb" affects how many targets you can handle before the web breaks and loses it's effectiveness.

Meaning, YES you can absolutely jam someone with 2 ECM's per Vagabond at ~900m; or you can jam someone with 5 ECM's per Vagabond at ~500m.

What does this translate to? It's not the matter of how many Vagabonds are on the field, what matters is how they're fit and what counters them.

There you go. It took you 4 bloody years and you didn't figure it out, if you can't figure it out at this point then just uninstall.

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Re: The official: nerf ewar thread

Syndic wrote:

There you go. It took you 4 bloody years and you didn't figure it out, if you can't figure it out at this point then just uninstall.

There isn't even a hint of sarcasm when I'm saying that I AM impressed how you and certain other people from your alliance are really bloody good at redirecting the conversation and deflecting arguments with non-answers.

Re: The official: nerf ewar thread

What I'm impressed about is that after 4 bloody years I explain just how flawed your entire train of thought and reasoning behind your fits and fleet compositions is, and you still don't get it.

We build fleets to perform a task, or to counter something.

You build fleets by theorycrafting the best mathematical potential for a robot and then jumble it together and act suprised when it falls flat on its face.

That is why EWar being nerfed or not being nerfed is inconsequential. I will roll out Ictus Mk2's instead of Vagabond Mk2's and we will be having the same discussion a few months down the line about EnWar and reactor sealings.

The game is perfectly balanced because all 3 races are relatively equally viable.

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