26 (edited by Martha Stuart 2014-04-29 08:26:17)

Re: More clarification on EULAs.

Arga wrote:
Tux wrote:

@ Zoom, I don't understand why there is any tolerance for racial, sexual, or any other type of harassment allowed on the forums or in the game. There should be no question. .. the more this is allowed to go on the worse its going to get ... I think most everyone will agree when you see people in GC or vicinity yelling about N_____ this or F__ that or suck on a _____ you ____ .. its a turn off for a LOT of players.

When these reports come to you you do NOT need to warn offenders, its in the EULA. You need to exercise your authority and start banning the offenders. I have some issues with exactly this that have not been addressed yet but you will have several tickets from me shortly for these same kind of issues.

This is a game its for entertainment its not some where anyone should feel harassed, bullied or belittled.

It needs to stop or I'm sure your going to allow deviants to drive some of the smartest people away from this game, because eventually they will stop tolerating it. 

Are you calling for Zero tolerance?

Yes, I think that's exactly what it should be.  I don't care about people swearing or insulting each other, but when certain people make references to ***, pedophilia, and other heinous crimes, that should not be tolerated at all.  No warnings, No second chances.  banned, gone, period. 

I have submitted tickets for this.  I don't submit tickets for swearing, or insults, but I do when people are talking about raping children, pedophilia, and extortion of other players. 

To be brutally honest, I lay this rampant problem solely at the feet of the Devs.  Every time I have reported this, or submitted tickets the same response comes back.  "Thank you for reporting this" and either the players gets muted in GC, or nothing happens.  No offence Devs, but by not enforcing any of this, you have not only perpetuated it, but in my opinion are an accessory to it.  By doing nothing, you are passively endorsing it.   I have read stuff in GC that seriously could get people investigated by law enforcement agencies.  And the response is "Oh, it might be some sick joke".  That's it.  Its gotten to the point now, where I don't even report it anymore, cause nothing will happen and its a waste of my time.

Serious question to the Devs:  Honestly, wear do you draw the line?  How far does this have to go before you do something?  Is this seriously acceptable behavior to you?

And Zoom, you know exactly what I'm talking about, because you are the one who removes the post from the forums and responds to the tickets.

I understand that you are trying to keep this game alive, and banning players when the population is lower than a few hundred players is a bad for business, but dam.  It is not even like its occasional, its the same people doing it over and over again, and the posts just get removed and maybe they get banned from the forums, temporarily.  Do you seriously think that is a deterrent?

Re: More clarification on EULAs.

roll

Re: More clarification on EULAs.

Celebro wrote:

All I will say is you can't argue or deny how someone feels, it's just not possible.

This is a very dark road to go down.

Population graphs

<GM Synapse> please don't abuse our fresh players before blowing them up. And for god sakes, don't do that after it!

Re: More clarification on EULAs.

Jita wrote:

perhaps we need an ingame profanity filter and going outside that is actionable.

No, they need a filter AND A TOGGLE.  If you're thin skinned that's your business.  I can handle it.

Population graphs

<GM Synapse> please don't abuse our fresh players before blowing them up. And for god sakes, don't do that after it!

Re: More clarification on EULAs.

Martha Stuart wrote:

people make references to ***, pedophilia, and other heinous crimes, that should not be tolerated at all.

Sounds like a nightly conversation with beastmode

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

31 (edited by Shadeless 2014-04-29 13:27:25)

Re: More clarification on EULAs.

I would like a block corp option ingame (so instant block for all player in that corp) and especialy on the forum. Would that be possible?

edit: instead of profinity filter.

Re: More clarification on EULAs.

Ville wrote:

12 year olds can't troll like me.  I don't think you understand what fully what this is about.  I could care less about you and your efeelings.  Honestly I can take it when big old mean guys start insulting me.  I have thick skin and I don't cry myself to sleep at night.  Hate me or not, I don't care.  Call me immature, but I'm more of an adult then you'll ever be.  Its just words Zortarg in a game.  With pixels and tbh I troll you guys to stir conflict.  That's the ONLY way we get fights.  But then suddenly there's a ultimatum thrown in my face that's very vague and senseless.  I get he's tired of answering tickets. I get it.  But do these insults cut so deep you have to sacrifice your manhood and turn into cry baby mode?  Its like Richard simons walking into The Westboro Baptist Church and then complaining to the government because he got criticized.  We are not all hand in hand people who enjoy long walks on the beach and cuddling.  Some of us are rude, crude and lude.  I'm a QA inspector in construction.  My job and I am not kidding is to yell at people all day and tell them how terrible they are.  So excuse me if a little trolling gets you knickers in a bunch because you can't grow a pair and be a man about it that and I know its difficult to find an insulting nickname for Ville.

Love you XOXOXO

I work in IT.  The air in here (my office, I'm at work) is generally various shades of blue.  Having been on comms, the people who don't want to hear something just mute til there is an op/don't click on links wink.  The real core issue is the Euros aren't used the freedom of speech that we have.  A lot of things we shrug off are actually legally actionable there (hilarious reversal).  It's kind of sad.

Also throwing out "THINK OF THE CHILDREN" is the new Godwin's law and shows how infantile and base the whole issue is roll

Population graphs

<GM Synapse> please don't abuse our fresh players before blowing them up. And for god sakes, don't do that after it!

33 (edited by Ville 2014-04-29 14:52:43)

Re: More clarification on EULAs.

Yeah IT can be rough.

There's been some highly insightful comments. 

Zortarg, from here on out I will stop calling you Zortar*.  Although you could of just asked me nicely.

Steam achievement Unlocked:  Being a Badass
http://www.perp-kill.net/kill/239407
Dev Zoom: I think its time to confess, Ville is my alt
Dev Zoom: Ville can be sometimes so sane it's scary.

Re: More clarification on EULAs.

So back to my original questions:

What's off limits to hurting efeelings?  In game(public or private chat channels)?  Forums?  3rd party killboard?  3rd party corporate websites.

Is it just vulgarity/racism, or anything that hurts peoples feelings?

Steam achievement Unlocked:  Being a Badass
http://www.perp-kill.net/kill/239407
Dev Zoom: I think its time to confess, Ville is my alt
Dev Zoom: Ville can be sometimes so sane it's scary.

Re: More clarification on EULAs.

Americans calling for censorship and euros feeling too emotional, what the hell has the world come to?

Re: More clarification on EULAs.

Well try to imagine yourself in my (or any moderator's) place. You have a thick skin, so you don't think you really insulted another player. Player has his feelings hurt, comes reporting you. I can't really tell him to harden up, since insults have been made, however frivolous you think it might be.

Re: More clarification on EULAs.

Dev Zoom, I swear you amuse me endlessly.

Steam achievement Unlocked:  Being a Badass
http://www.perp-kill.net/kill/239407
Dev Zoom: I think its time to confess, Ville is my alt
Dev Zoom: Ville can be sometimes so sane it's scary.

Re: More clarification on EULAs.

Code of Conduct wrote:

This ruleset is the code of conduct for the sci-fi MMORPG Perpettum developed by Avatar Creations (Budapest, Hungary), and is an amendment to the User Agreement.

'''1. We ask that you respect your fellow players and the Perpetuum staff by always talking to them in a calm manner, and don't let your words or actions dictated by emotions.'''
* It is forbidden to insult or bad-mouth other players, the Game Masters or the Developers, or to impede their work or fun willingly in any way.
* It is forbidden to falsely or baselessly accuse anyone of anything.
* Sexist, racist, obscene talk and hate-speech is strictly forbidden.

It looks quite clear what the rules are, if in doubt, don't do it.

RIP PERPETUUM

Re: More clarification on EULAs.

It's cool Celebro, I'll just start returning the favor w/ tickets.

Steam achievement Unlocked:  Being a Badass
http://www.perp-kill.net/kill/239407
Dev Zoom: I think its time to confess, Ville is my alt
Dev Zoom: Ville can be sometimes so sane it's scary.

Re: More clarification on EULAs.

Also all you holy rollers saying its ONLY one coalition in game here's STC recruitment poster. http://imidero.net/join/  I'm sure my new recruits enjoy being called Sh*theads.

Steam achievement Unlocked:  Being a Badass
http://www.perp-kill.net/kill/239407
Dev Zoom: I think its time to confess, Ville is my alt
Dev Zoom: Ville can be sometimes so sane it's scary.

41 (edited by Rage Blackout 2014-04-29 15:55:25)

Re: More clarification on EULAs.

DEV Zoom wrote:

Well try to imagine yourself in my (or any moderator's) place. You have a thick skin, so you don't think you really insulted another player. Player has his feelings hurt, comes reporting you. I can't really tell him to harden up, since insults have been made, however frivolous you think it might be.


I'm hardening up right now.

DEV Zoom - "If you mean the NPC aggro, that's been like that for months already."

Re: More clarification on EULAs.

DEV Zoom wrote:

Well try to imagine yourself in my (or any moderator's) place. You have a thick skin, so you don't think you really insulted another player. Player has his feelings hurt, comes reporting you. I can't really tell him to harden up, since insults have been made, however frivolous you think it might be.

Just cut and paste this:

"Conflict both on the field, in the chat channels and on the forum are a key part of Perpetuums rich landscape. While the comments made may be seen as distasteful I do not feel that it constitutes harassment or bullying outside of the concept of the game. May I suggest moving forward that you use the block feature if specific individuals bother you and if the situation escalates feel free to contact us to revisit the decision."

Then send this to the person accused:

"This is a notification that a complaint has been received about your behaviour in a public chat channel. Specifically the complaint relates to this comment:

'Kill yourself in real life jita you ***'

While in this instance the complaint was not upheld please be aware that behavior under the EULA that may constitute bullying or harassment would fall under our disciplinary policy and repeated infractions can cause your account to be permenantly suspended. This policy is set out below:

Stage 1: formal warning

Stage 2: 30 day chat ban in public channels

Stage 3: 7 day game suspension and 30 day chat ban

Stage 4: 30 day game suspension and 365 day chat ban

Stage 5: Permenant account suspension"

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: More clarification on EULAs.

^^ brilliant

Steam achievement Unlocked:  Being a Badass
http://www.perp-kill.net/kill/239407
Dev Zoom: I think its time to confess, Ville is my alt
Dev Zoom: Ville can be sometimes so sane it's scary.

Re: More clarification on EULAs.

Hey I have a fantastic solution to these issues.

If someone is hurting your feelings, or typing in ways that you don't agree with

JUST PUT THAT GUY ON IGNORE


Don't turn what is currently a fantastic free speech enabled game into one of those games where moderators and GM's rule like tyrants.

use the ignore feature if you dislike someone elses tone.  Bans and warning go out quickly when people cross the line, but for normal conversation that may offend others without being obscene...just use the damn ignore functions and stop harassing the developers into forcing people to act/speak in a manner you approve of.

stop acting like liberals basically.

Stranger Danger / Capital Punishment / Cyberdown
Pillar of the Community
Ruler of Recruit Chat
CIR Ministry of Truth

Re: More clarification on EULAs.

And just to add to that I will wholeheartedly will agree that I have been over that line plenty. This is about moderation that should be for over the line being blurred to you will get banned if you hurt someone's efeelings.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

46

Re: More clarification on EULAs.

Then why do you have rules like

# 11. Posts containing obscene or vulgar phrases, pornography, extreme violence, references to illegal drugs or activities, real-life threats, insults aimed towards race/ethnicity/religion/ancestry/nationality/sexual preference of others, or otherwise objectionable content are forbidden. This also applies to links pointing to pages containing aforementioned content.

? ? If you are not willing to enforce your own EULA evenly across the board it is useless and needs to be removed so everyone here can threaten harass and abuse each other until S___ starts to get Real..

You say that some may have a "thick skin" but what happens when images or other RL info starts to get released in game targeting people ? is that the line for banns? Or are you going to say again HARDEN THE F____ UP !

Selectively enforcing your EULA will only give you guys a bad reputation, It will not help your game or your games community.

It boils down to enforce the EULA or get rid of it !!!

Its only effecting people trying to play by the rules.

DEV Zoom wrote:

Well try to imagine yourself in my (or any moderator's) place. You have a thick skin, so you don't think you really insulted another player. Player has his feelings hurt, comes reporting you. I can't really tell him to harden up, since insults have been made, however frivolous you think it might be.

Tux ~ Kill the messenger, he was part of it all along.
Euripides ~ Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head.
Bertrand Russell ~ War does not determine who is right - only who is left.

Re: More clarification on EULAs.

Stranger Danger wrote:

Hey I have a fantastic solution to these issues.

If someone is hurting your feelings, or typing in ways that you don't agree with

JUST PUT THAT GUY ON IGNORE


Don't turn what is currently a fantastic free speech enabled game into one of those games where moderators and GM's rule like tyrants.

use the ignore feature if you dislike someone elses tone.  Bans and warning go out quickly when people cross the line, but for normal conversation that may offend others without being obscene...just use the damn ignore functions and stop harassing the developers into forcing people to act/speak in a manner you approve of.

stop acting like liberals basically.


This is ideal.  I didn't even know there was a block wink

Population graphs

<GM Synapse> please don't abuse our fresh players before blowing them up. And for god sakes, don't do that after it!

Re: More clarification on EULAs.

Tux: the rule you quoted is for the forum, which is pretty easy to moderate, which can't be said about ingame chat.

Re: More clarification on EULAs.

Martha Stuart wrote:

stuff

The problem with ZT is Perpetuum has some really really smart players and this game has a very strong meta component.

Meaning, some players will use the ZT EULA to retaliate against in game action.

Other players will simply troll with a ZT EULA.

AC shouldn't just blindly take action on every reported incident and they don't have to because it's not a game with millions of players.

Lastly, Perp doesn't have a hand-holding culture.

It's wholly appropriate to put in an OPTIONAL profanity filter, it can even be ON by default. It's OK to ban players from GC and other channels for inappropriate conduct.

Going too far is account/character bans with no oversight, which is what ZT means; regardless of the circumstance they follow the letter of the EULA.

Re: More clarification on EULAs.

I'm agreeing with Tux again. I need to check my temperature.

The EULA needs enforcing in a staged and consistent way. It also needs to be specific about the difference between hurting some special snowflakes feelings and talking about Stuff that's clearly over the top.

Have a relatively high bar and enforce it rather than a low bar and sporadic at best.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."