51

Re: Suggestion/Discussion: make ewar LOS and AoE

Arga wrote:
Oriamen wrote:

The "problem" with ECM is that it's good in large engagements but even better in small engagements.

The 'Problem' is when agressors only bring DPS and they run into a smart group of players that have a balanced squad with dedicated ECM bots.

I've been out of the game for a while, so correct me if i'm wrong here, but it wouldn't it be more correct to state that a DPS bias can indeed be disadvantageous, while an EWAR bias will most likely not be (unless the opponent is either using loads of ECCMs or the DPS in question are ranged gropho mk2s).  So, it's not necessarily about balanced groups but having a sufficient amount of ewar.

52 (edited by Syndic 2014-04-25 20:12:23)

Re: Suggestion/Discussion: make ewar LOS and AoE

It's actually quite amazing that with over 20k registered accounts and 4 years later, Styx was one of the only 3 people who figured out how to deal with EWAR.

Darwin at work. lol

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CIR Complaint Form

The Imperial Grand Wizard of Justice

53 (edited by Arga 2014-04-25 21:13:28)

Re: Suggestion/Discussion: make ewar LOS and AoE

Ozy wrote:
Arga wrote:
Oriamen wrote:

The "problem" with ECM is that it's good in large engagements but even better in small engagements.

The 'Problem' is when agressors only bring DPS and they run into a smart group of players that have a balanced squad with dedicated ECM bots.

I've been out of the game for a while, so correct me if i'm wrong here, but it wouldn't it be more correct to state that a DPS bias can indeed be disadvantageous, while an EWAR bias will most likely not be (unless the opponent is either using loads of ECCMs or the DPS in question are ranged gropho mk2s).  So, it's not necessarily about balanced groups but having a sufficient amount of ewar.

Too much Ewar can certainly be an issue.

Balanced groups have to bring suffcient DPS to overcome HPS (Sheilds/Rep) or it becomes a standoff at best but more likely due to the RNG nature of Ewar/ECM, a losing scenerio (unless they can call in DPS reinforcements).


How an encounter plays out depends as much on how the FCs recognize and react to the groups they meet, as well as the groups composition. Meeting a group that has ewar in it almost certainly means a drawn-out battle of attrition. Groups out to blitz are going to want to avoid ewar, this is especially true if they are aggressing into enemy territory.

Edit: What Sydic said. But also the ewar nerf topic is very old. General concensus is that tuners probably need a tweak downward. Vocal parties continue to call for no change or major nerfs.

Also, I had wanted to say that group composition is highly dependant on what you're trying to accomplish with it. So in that sense, if the goal of the FC is to harrass and slow opposition, than having a heavy bias to ewar would be the balance they wanted.

Lastly, ECCM isn't useless, but because it's a head slot the trade-off makes it undesirable... unless you know your coming up against heavy ECM/Suppression group where SOME dps is better than lower DPS.

Re: Suggestion/Discussion: make ewar LOS and AoE

Ya gotta love Arga... Making well thought out and eloquent written posts on topics he has zero hands on experience with in the past 3 years. Has never seen an ewar tuning or a battle in perpetuum ever? Or at least in 3 years? But never the less, does a great job of derailing the actual topic at hand into a debate over minutia that has really nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Well done sir. I salute you. smile

Those of you lucky enough to have your lives, take them with you. However, leave the mods you've lost. They belong to me now.

Scarab Kill Count:2

Re: Suggestion/Discussion: make ewar LOS and AoE

Shadowmine wrote:

Ya gotta love Arga... Making well thought out and eloquent written posts on topics he has zero hands on experience with in the past 3 years. Has never seen an ewar tuning or a battle in perpetuum ever? Or at least in 3 years? But never the less, does a great job of derailing the actual topic at hand into a debate over minutia that has really nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Well done sir. I salute you. smile

Gotta hand it to Shadowine, unable to ever compose well thought out arguments he instead degenerates to Ad Hominem attacks upon those that do.

Re: Suggestion/Discussion: make ewar LOS and AoE

Rage Rex wrote:
Shadowmine wrote:

Ya gotta love Arga... Making well thought out and eloquent written posts on topics he has zero hands on experience with in the past 3 years. Has never seen an ewar tuning or a battle in perpetuum ever? Or at least in 3 years? But never the less, does a great job of derailing the actual topic at hand into a debate over minutia that has really nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Well done sir. I salute you. smile

Gotta hand it to Shadowine, unable to ever compose well thought out arguments he instead degenerates to Ad Hominem attacks upon those that do.

Actually I was complimenting him, not attacking him. TYVM. big_smile

Those of you lucky enough to have your lives, take them with you. However, leave the mods you've lost. They belong to me now.

Scarab Kill Count:2

57 (edited by Arga 2014-04-25 23:13:26)

Re: Suggestion/Discussion: make ewar LOS and AoE

Shadowmine wrote:

Ya gotta love Arga... Making well thought out and eloquent written posts on topics he has zero hands on experience with in the past 3 years. Has never seen an ewar tuning or a battle in perpetuum ever? Or at least in 3 years? But never the less, does a great job of derailing the actual topic at hand into a debate over minutia that has really nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Well done sir. I salute you. smile

My Alt is dedicated ewar, but technically your correct "Arga" hasn't seen the inside of a PVP bot.

Edit: Pushes train a little more off track.  yikes

Re: Suggestion/Discussion: make ewar LOS and AoE

Syndic wrote:

It's actually quite amazing that with over 20k registered accounts and 4 years later, Styx was one of the only 3 people who figured out how to deal with EWAR.

Darwin at work. lol

yeah, darwins solution - the Styx account died to his genious fuuu

that aside, EWAR got several changes since then. like L-Demobs got LoS restriction AFTER his ban. EWAR Tunings got introduced, ECCMs got changed - and well, they only had half a yeaer worth of extensionpoints into it. Not 4 years...

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Suggestion/Discussion: make ewar LOS and AoE

Exactly my point.

We had to deal with 1,2km demobs and 900m jams, with vastly inferior extensions and no hope of using the tools we have available today to solve it. ECCM's were also a lot worse back then.

We still solved it, the ban would never have happened if vast amounts of heavies weren't blown up under Brightstone when we destroyed the hellcamp.

Example:
On paper and in theorycrafting, EWAR (ECM+tuning) on Zeniths makes more sense then Vagabonds.

1,000,000$ question:
Why are fights being won with our fleets fielding theoretically "inferior" ewar?

1,000,000$ answer:
Because theorycrafting out-of-game is one thing, and making it work in-game is another thing.

[18:20:30] <GLiMPSE> Chairman Of My Heart o/
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The Imperial Grand Wizard of Justice

Re: Suggestion/Discussion: make ewar LOS and AoE

It's not really about the number or ratio of ewar bots on the field. It's the way that jamming subtracts from the enemy force and exaggerates any difference in numbers.

Please consider the following example:
3 kains 1 camelion vs 3 kains 3 camelions

What are the odds of the outnumbered side winning?
How one-sided will the fight be?
How one-sided should the fight be?

These are open questions, I am not saying I have the "right" answers to them but I am curious to see what people think the right answers should be. 
And yes, theorycrafting is a very limited tool so if someone wants to test this, that would be awesome.

Like I said before, this not a question of balance but rather what kind of mechanics do we want in the game.
You can have under-powered or overpowered ewar quite easily with ether kind of mechanic.

+1
-Confucius

Re: Suggestion/Discussion: make ewar LOS and AoE

A better comparison would be six kains vs three Kain's and three cameleons. Even then without ECCM your gonna have real trouble and that's how it should be. I well organised gang should be beating moar guns!

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: Suggestion/Discussion: make ewar LOS and AoE

what exactly have the above examples to do with LoS restrictions?

i mean, those 6 kains will hardly be able to hit a single one of those ewar bots, because they can apply their ECM and eventually demobs from behind obstacles, let alone the  low chance that those EM weapons succesfully hit.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

63

Re: Suggestion/Discussion: make ewar LOS and AoE

Jita wrote:

A better comparison would be six kains vs three Kain's and three cameleons. Even then without ECCM your gonna have real trouble and that's how it should be. I well organised gang should be beating moar guns!

What happens when we escalate numbers a bit and poise two unbalanced gangs against each other? So, how about 25 v 25 in the following mix:

Gang 1
20 DPS
5 ewar/tackle

Gang 2
5 DPS
5 Ictuses
15 Ewar

Re: Suggestion/Discussion: make ewar LOS and AoE

Ozy wrote:
Jita wrote:

A better comparison would be six kains vs three Kain's and three cameleons. Even then without ECCM your gonna have real trouble and that's how it should be. I well organised gang should be beating moar guns!

What happens when we escalate numbers a bit and poise two unbalanced gangs against each other? So, how about 25 v 25 in the following mix:

Gang 1
20 DPS
5 ewar/tackle

Gang 2
5 DPS
5 Ictuses
15 Ewar

Gang 2 should win and rightly so.

Re: Suggestion/Discussion: make ewar LOS and AoE

Ozy wrote:

What happens when we escalate numbers a bit and poise two unbalanced gangs against each other? So, how about 25 v 25 in the following mix:

Gang 1
20 DPS
5 ewar/tackle

Gang 2
5 DPS
5 Ictuses
15 Ewar

I have a few questions on this to know who would win or have favor.

Where are they fighting?
What size are the bots?
How are they fit?
What is the goal- i.e. to attacking or defending?

I can already think of quite a few scenarios where either gang would come out on top.

Bro, is your theory crafting even over 9000?

Undefeated 2013
"Even alone you probably are one of the best" - Khader Khan
"Lemon the 1 man army .... also know as: THE TERMINATOR!" - Obi Wan
"There are people who are just better then you at doing many things at one time, some are far better then myself, far better." -Merkle

66

Re: Suggestion/Discussion: make ewar LOS and AoE

Lemon wrote:

I can already think of quite a few scenarios where either gang would come out on top.

Bro, is your theory crafting even over 9000?

If you're up for it, then let's go ahead and play some theorycrafting.

Location: Let's say somewhere on nova. An encounter where both meet or one is defending dana seem like reasonably common scenarios.

Size: Heavies and ewar mechs and their mk2 version.

Fits: I'm a bit out of the loop, to be honest, so feel free to determine the fits yourself. My only requests would be that you choose reasonably (meaning no dps fleet with a max range of 200m lol) and under the assumption that
neither gang knows what the other is going to bring.

Goal: I'd like to add one here--a roam encounter.

I'm curious where this is gonna go now!

Re: Suggestion/Discussion: make ewar LOS and AoE

Lemon wrote:

Bro..

Bro, you should know that forum war are 90% about that form of PvP you can find the least in perp, thanks to Syndic(ates) advanced pvp mechanics:

the PvP where two groups casually meet each other and start to fight to the end, without hesitation and "tactical retreat" not beeing considered by either group.

slightly offtopic:
my pvp situation just a few minutes ago was my toddler to the left, trying to fall asleep on my left arm, and my wife reading a book leaning on my right arm.
And in the middle was i, Demobbed and unable to grab my keyboard or mouse to make this post (supressed and unable to use the electronic equipment)

unlike ingame, i could free myself with skill and finish this post (attack).
well, the toddler ran out of accumulator afterwards wink

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

68 (edited by Burial 2014-04-26 15:02:06)

Re: Suggestion/Discussion: make ewar LOS and AoE

Jita wrote:

A better comparison would be six kains vs three Kain's and three cameleons. Even then without ECCM your gonna have real trouble and that's how it should be. I well organised gang should be beating moar guns!

How exactly is one gang more organised than the other? Bringing bots to the field that are OP with current meta does not equal organisation. I agree with you that more organised gangs should win but even if gang one is more organised and play together superior to the other, they would still most likely not win the engagement.

My Cameleon MK2 gets 82,5% jamming percentage against any mech and I have 650m range on jamms with Nexus. Don't you find it ridiculous?

Here's an example of non-EW gang going up against EW gang: http://killboard.sequer.nl/?a=kill-rela … l_id=42352 (Numbers were more on the equal side but we didn't catch the others.)

Re: Suggestion/Discussion: make ewar LOS and AoE

I guess Ill bite and give back some today. Based off the information you've given

Nova: Your going to be dealing with 400-700m Range fights. If your fleet cannot handle this you lose the fight. If you dont have the speed your dead entirely after you lost the fight.

MK 2 Mech's on the field means any of the mk 1's are obsolete in performance with out a numbers advantage or complementing fits. i.e. Mk 1 has worse tank, range, or damage to the mk 2 (assuming the enemy is running self sufficient fits and not symbiotic fits utilizing the mk2's)

So before the fight even begins one can call the victor based off of my own known fleet composition and the first sighting of the enemy fleet.

There are ways to break this cycle by using some unconventional play such as login drops, TP drops, Cheese fits ext.

It all comes down to being big enough to win or being fast enough to go home.

Undefeated 2013
"Even alone you probably are one of the best" - Khader Khan
"Lemon the 1 man army .... also know as: THE TERMINATOR!" - Obi Wan
"There are people who are just better then you at doing many things at one time, some are far better then myself, far better." -Merkle

70 (edited by Lemon 2014-04-26 15:04:07)

Re: Suggestion/Discussion: make ewar LOS and AoE

Burial wrote:
Jita wrote:

A better comparison would be six kains vs three Kain's and three cameleons. Even then without ECCM your gonna have real trouble and that's how it should be. I well organised gang should be beating moar guns!

How exactly is one gang more organised than the other? Bringing bots to the field that are OP with current meta does not equal organisation. I agree with you that more organised gangs should win but even if gang one is more organised and play together superior to the other, they would still most likely not win the engagement.

My Cameleon MK2 gets 82,5% jamming percentage against any mech and I have 650m range on jamms with Nexus. Don't you find it ridiculous?

Here's an example of non-EW gang going up against EW gang: http://killboard.sequer.nl/?a=kill-rela … l_id=42352 (Numbers were more on the equal side but we didn't catch the others.)

Who would use a Mech to kill a mk2 cam?

Undefeated 2013
"Even alone you probably are one of the best" - Khader Khan
"Lemon the 1 man army .... also know as: THE TERMINATOR!" - Obi Wan
"There are people who are just better then you at doing many things at one time, some are far better then myself, far better." -Merkle

71 (edited by Burial 2014-04-26 15:11:23)

Re: Suggestion/Discussion: make ewar LOS and AoE

I agree but I'm just fully using the example gangs Jita posted.

72 (edited by Lemon 2014-04-26 15:38:31)

Re: Suggestion/Discussion: make ewar LOS and AoE

Burial wrote:

I agree but I'm just fully using the example gangs Jita posted.

For *** sake I compared the Cam mk 2 and Kain.

2.83s Lock time @ 887m. x6 Kains

Each Cam can run 2 ECM's stable so 80% chance every 10sx2.

Even if you cycled them you would be unable to prevent even half of those kains from firing on every chance their weapons were off cooldown. The cams would only have 3 DPS kains themselves and if the 3 extra enemy kains just got 1 volley off between them would win a flat our rush.

So.........

Edit:
The Kain fires on over a 5 second+ timer. so even holding your jams on a beat to maximize their effect would still be useless in a 1 to 1 fight.

The cam is faster and can engage the kain outside of its ~500m range but if that cam tries to tackle it will die to the Kains.

Undefeated 2013
"Even alone you probably are one of the best" - Khader Khan
"Lemon the 1 man army .... also know as: THE TERMINATOR!" - Obi Wan
"There are people who are just better then you at doing many things at one time, some are far better then myself, far better." -Merkle

73 (edited by Burial 2014-04-26 16:10:03)

Re: Suggestion/Discussion: make ewar LOS and AoE

1. Are you talking about firearms Kains? You realize how measly they hit at that range?

2. Cameleons have 3 ECMs that are stable with 82% success.

74

Re: Suggestion/Discussion: make ewar LOS and AoE

Lemon wrote:

It all comes down to being big enough to win or being fast enough to go home.

In that regard, ewar has an inherent advantage over heavy mk2s due to their higher speed--i.e., the ewar fleet should be able to flee in most scenarios that don't involve login traps.

Also, feel free to assume that both fleets only utilise mk2s or mk1s. this is primarily about a theoretical match, after all, so we can control conditions however we like. Either way, what's your verdict re advantage etc?

Re: Suggestion/Discussion: make ewar LOS and AoE

Ozy wrote:
Lemon wrote:

It all comes down to being big enough to win or being fast enough to go home.

In that regard, ewar has an inherent advantage over heavy mk2s due to their higher speed--i.e., the ewar fleet should be able to flee in most scenarios that don't involve login traps.

Also, feel free to assume that both fleets only utilise mk2s or mk1s. this is primarily about a theoretical match, after all, so we can control conditions however we like. Either way, what's your verdict re advantage etc?


You are correct to say a E-War focused fleet would out run a Heavy Mk 2 fleet as that is part of the balance. If I wanted a speed group that could run down and kill a ewar fleet I wouldn't bring a slower heavy.

The advantage goes to who ever is controlling the engagement because they decide the winner.

Undefeated 2013
"Even alone you probably are one of the best" - Khader Khan
"Lemon the 1 man army .... also know as: THE TERMINATOR!" - Obi Wan
"There are people who are just better then you at doing many things at one time, some are far better then myself, far better." -Merkle