51 (edited by Burial 2014-04-14 23:47:52)

Re: Mobile teleports and PvP flags

My armored teleport collection just got a lot less valuable.

Re: Mobile teleports and PvP flags

Rage Rex wrote:

Editing my double post to change my opinion...

I've thought about it more and I am liking this change less (still happier than before). Mobile TPs are useful for more than just escape. Even the pursuing player uses mobile TPs to quickly chase down targets when possible.

The problem here is and has been Armored TPs.

But again you Devs do a lousy job at isolating Problems before implementing Solutions. So to fix the Armored TP Escape Problem you rework the Flag mechanic on ALL Mobile TP Usage. It's like you Devs close your eyes and fire a shotgun at all your balancing problems. You never hit the mark, or only hit part of it while wrecking all the good stuff around it.

Yes, this is ONLY HALF A FIX because you still leave the incentive for opponents to NOT flag. Thus they can still sit on their Armored TP and escape before committing. Meanwhile Flagged players hoping to engage across the map can't play. The result will likely be even less PvP.

Better solution is to eliminate the Armored TP and leave Flag Mechanic out of the equation.

Hey, an actual good post on the forums.

Re: Mobile teleports and PvP flags

^ +1  its a fair balance to make both sides happy since standards and emergencies can be 1 shotted

Re: Mobile teleports and PvP flags

Rage Rex wrote:

Thus they can still sit on their Armored TP and escape before committing. Meanwhile Flagged players hoping to engage across the map can't play. The result will likely be even less PvP.

I don't mind this change mechanic wise really, but I do expect the end result to be less pvp. That's my only issue with it. When in doubt, people just wont flag up. IMO, the armored teleport really only ever gave people a false sense of security. You would feel good that if things went awry you had a CHANCE to get away. This would lead to groups flagging up and testing out the enemy defences knowing they had a chance to escape.

In actual practice it rarely worked out that way. More often than not the teleport beacon was never used to begin with. Anyone ever try and jump a fleet of 15 or 20 guys through 3 armored teleports? With 30 seconds in between jumps and a 3 minute warm up, you are never getting the majority of a fleet out safe with armored teles. It just almost never happens, and if it does, its usually something the other side did wrong allowing them to escape.

I would have much preferred to see a 60 sec wait time in between jumps or something along those lines instead. I guess we will see how this whole thing pans out.

PS: I would love to know the DEV's reasoning for this change if one would like to chime in... smile

Those of you lucky enough to have your lives, take them with you. However, leave the mods you've lost. They belong to me now.

Scarab Kill Count:2

Re: Mobile teleports and PvP flags

I've been receiving reports about this issue probably since more than a year, from all sides. And if something is this prevalent then it surely has some truth to it too. However, I admit the change might be a bit overcompensating because the problem was mostly with armored teles as many of you posted here, but currently this was the fastest way to do it.

Re: Mobile teleports and PvP flags

DEV Zoom wrote:

I've been receiving reports about this issue probably since more than a year, from all sides. And if something is this prevalent then it surely has some truth to it too. However, I admit the change might be a bit overcompensating because the problem was mostly with armored teles as many of you posted here, but currently this was the fastest way to do it.


Nah you guys are doing it right. This game doesn't have warp when it comes to PVP and thats what sets it apart from spreadsheets in space. Its the #1 thing this game has going for it and its back. Thanks.

Re: Mobile teleports and PvP flags

No jumping while flagged is the best way to permanently fix it.

[18:20:30] <GLiMPSE> Chairman Of My Heart o/
CIR Complaint Form

The Imperial Grand Wizard of Justice

58 (edited by Rage Rex 2014-04-15 01:13:52)

Re: Mobile teleports and PvP flags

Shadowmine wrote:
Rage Rex wrote:

Thus they can still sit on their Armored TP and escape before committing. Meanwhile Flagged players hoping to engage across the map can't play. The result will likely be even less PvP.

I don't mind this change mechanic wise really, but I do expect the end result to be less pvp ... [and more Shadowbable using my quote out of context to further his *** views]

I should clarify and say "The result will likely be less PvP with STC" since you are the guys who have perfected the Armored Escape Path. But between people who actually like to PvP it will only help tip the balance toward committing to more fun edge-of-your-seat close battles that make this game rock!

And all this talk about hurting small gang PvP is crap coming from TP Escape Proponents. I used to be part of the minority for a long time, always with corps playing outnumbered. We used TPs to GET TO the fight NOT TO GET AWAY from the fight.

Dev Zoom you never really listened to me before so don't start now. Just use your new Flag Mechanic. We will adapt. STC ...welcome to the endangered species list.

Re: Mobile teleports and PvP flags

"With 30 seconds in between jumps and a 3 minute warm up, you are never getting the majority of a fleet out safe with armored teles." At least Merkle will get away. That is what happens more times than not.

Re: Mobile teleports and PvP flags

Last I checked STC was you guys's only opponent. sad

Those of you lucky enough to have your lives, take them with you. However, leave the mods you've lost. They belong to me now.

Scarab Kill Count:2

Re: Mobile teleports and PvP flags

Shadowmine wrote:

Last I checked STC was you guys's only opponent. sad

Tick tock

Re: Mobile teleports and PvP flags

Long term solution: Remove mobile teleporters altogether from the game and fix the hopelessly broken travel system including aggression mechanics in relation to travel as well as the "dance" of tackling.

Looking forward to new players and new conflicts.

Re: Mobile teleports and PvP flags

Rage Rex wrote:
Shadowmine wrote:

Last I checked STC was you guys's only opponent. sad

Tick tock

Lol, that broken *** clock has been ticking for 2 years now... Someone should have that thing looked at..

Those of you lucky enough to have your lives, take them with you. However, leave the mods you've lost. They belong to me now.

Scarab Kill Count:2

64 (edited by Stranger Danger 2014-04-15 01:51:43)

Re: Mobile teleports and PvP flags

Shadowmine wrote:
Rage Rex wrote:
Shadowmine wrote:

Last I checked STC was you guys's only opponent. sad

Tick tock

Lol, that broken *** clock has been ticking for 2 years now... Someone should have that thing looked at..

You guys have stopped trying to pvp for a while now.

You seem uninterested in beta terminals.

You guys are not publically recruiting.


Seems RAD is more relevant right now than STC unfortunately.  We all would love for STC to grow a pair and start...defending their saps, attacking ours, coming with a fleet...growing...being a good enemy corporation that makes the game fun.

It seems to me you guys desperately want perpetuum as it was a few months ago...no players...no competition...endless beastmode kills to pad the kill mails.

post that youtube video of you guys taking down empty PHM/Chaos bases......that stuff...the pve...that's what you guys want...not the battles where you might lose.

the tick tock is over man, you guys appear to have given up now that you have a populated and competent enemy alliance to deal with rather than a small upstart and a dying game to deal with.

Problem is, with the game now free to all of us...there isn't not much chance of everyone else leaving so you can bask in the good ole days...all it takes is a ping to draw up people from other games ect.  Denying pvp isn't going to save you guys via everyone leaving this time....

Stranger Danger / Capital Punishment / Cyberdown
Pillar of the Community
Ruler of Recruit Chat
CIR Ministry of Truth

65 (edited by Dazamin 2014-04-15 02:07:52)

Re: Mobile teleports and PvP flags

DEV Zoom wrote:

I've been receiving reports about this issue probably since more than a year, from all sides. And if something is this prevalent then it surely has some truth to it too. However, I admit the change might be a bit overcompensating because the problem was mostly with armored teles as many of you posted here, but currently this was the fastest way to do it.

This is the general process, get reports about something being broken for a year, do nothing, moaning intensifies, make massive change that doesn't really address the problem or affects a bunch of other things that were never problems.

I don't really know what the answer is, I'd like to say listen to the player base, but in all honesty they've given you terrible advice over the years and most seem to have a massive problem about looking at issues beyond a 'what's best for my group' PoV (I'm looking at you people who though Fortress Gamma Islands were a great thing).

But honestly there are a massive list of things that need balancing and haven't been touched for years, are these things going to end up with the same treatment? As an alternative, how about a commitment to regular small scale balancing. It would really help, you'd be dealing with small targeted tweaks which have much less potential to completely change the game, fixes can be added in a more timely fashion and you get data to see whether bigger changes are needed. If it turns out to be a terrible change you just reverse it or change it again, it has to be better than the current swing from one extreme to another that never really finds a balanced point anyway?

I mean the threads are always good entertainment, but its getting a little old I think smile

Re: Mobile teleports and PvP flags

Hehe, this is quite funny.

How should we be playing the game again?

The Gifter
Top  Killer 2013  - 01: 334 -- 17 -- 317  : Merkle
Top  Killer 2012  - 01: 027 -- 472 -- 445 : Merkle

Scarab Kill Count - 13

Re: Mobile teleports and PvP flags

Stranger Danger wrote:
Shadowmine wrote:
Rage Rex wrote:

Tick tock

Lol, that broken *** clock has been ticking for 2 years now... Someone should have that thing looked at..

You guys have stopped trying to pvp for a while now.

You seem uninterested in beta terminals.

You guys are not publically recruiting.


Seems RAD is more relevant right now than STC unfortunately.  We all would love for STC to grow a pair and start...defending their saps, attacking ours, coming with a fleet...growing...being a good enemy corporation that makes the game fun.

It seems to me you guys desperately want perpetuum as it was a few months ago...no players...no competition...endless beastmode kills to pad the kill mails.

post that youtube video of you guys taking down empty PHM/Chaos bases......that stuff...the pve...that's what you guys want...not the battles where you might lose.

the tick tock is over man, you guys appear to have given up now that you have a populated and competent enemy alliance to deal with rather than a small upstart and a dying game to deal with.

Problem is, with the game now free to all of us...there isn't not much chance of everyone else leaving so you can bask in the good ole days...all it takes is a ping to draw up people from other games ect.  Denying pvp isn't going to save you guys via everyone leaving this time....

Thanks for another *** post, just what this thread needed

Re: Mobile teleports and PvP flags

Dazamin wrote:
Stranger Danger wrote:
Shadowmine wrote:

Lol, that broken *** clock has been ticking for 2 years now... Someone should have that thing looked at..

You guys have stopped trying to pvp for a while now.

You seem uninterested in beta terminals.

You guys are not publically recruiting.


Seems RAD is more relevant right now than STC unfortunately.  We all would love for STC to grow a pair and start...defending their saps, attacking ours, coming with a fleet...growing...being a good enemy corporation that makes the game fun.

It seems to me you guys desperately want perpetuum as it was a few months ago...no players...no competition...endless beastmode kills to pad the kill mails.

post that youtube video of you guys taking down empty PHM/Chaos bases......that stuff...the pve...that's what you guys want...not the battles where you might lose.

the tick tock is over man, you guys appear to have given up now that you have a populated and competent enemy alliance to deal with rather than a small upstart and a dying game to deal with.

Problem is, with the game now free to all of us...there isn't not much chance of everyone else leaving so you can bask in the good ole days...all it takes is a ping to draw up people from other games ect.  Denying pvp isn't going to save you guys via everyone leaving this time....

Thanks for another *** post, just what this thread needed

why would they censor the word "accurate"?

Stranger Danger / Capital Punishment / Cyberdown
Pillar of the Community
Ruler of Recruit Chat
CIR Ministry of Truth

Re: Mobile teleports and PvP flags

DeV's what's wrong with you? You did too much smart steps in the last month. WTF? You need nerf ERP quick else you will disappoint me. neutral

The theory of mutual interests
Why the crybabies wins?
Где Ханя - там победа (с)
DEV Zoom: No need to speculate...

Re: Mobile teleports and PvP flags

Someone is getting a bit to high on there own propaganda.

Zooms getting frustrated.  This is never a good thing.

The Gifter
Top  Killer 2013  - 01: 334 -- 17 -- 317  : Merkle
Top  Killer 2012  - 01: 027 -- 472 -- 445 : Merkle

Scarab Kill Count - 13

71 (edited by Syndic 2014-04-15 07:43:48)

Re: Mobile teleports and PvP flags

Zoom you're being misled.

I have 5 guys. our detector spots target 2-3km away. We drop 5 beacons. We go and try to kill, either we kill or run back to beacon (which are by then charged) and jump out. Nobody can catch you without posting eyes on every gate within 30 seconds of the alarm bell going off & having pre-charged beacons ready to hotdrop.

TP's have been a no-risk get out of jail free card - up to this change.

It sound silly but that is EXACTLY what we've been facing every consecutive "fight". We've designed new fits to carry the most guns as fast as possible precisely so that we could close the gap faster between TP's dropping and TP's being charged and kill as many as we could before the rest jump out. We stopped using tackles because our targets were stationary & waiting on mobile TP's. Our detectors stopped looking for players and started looking for mobile TP's. The players we kill don't even fight back most of the time, they just huddle there on the mobile TP and try to look intimidating as our assaults (barely held together with duct tape and happy thoughts) hose down as many as they can before the rest jumps out.

That's how pathetic it's been. And Dazamin is partly right, this kind of sh*t shouldn't go unnoticed for a year until enough consecutive complaints have accumulated or whatever the process is. Detect + test + verify + rebalance.

[18:20:30] <GLiMPSE> Chairman Of My Heart o/
CIR Complaint Form

The Imperial Grand Wizard of Justice

Re: Mobile teleports and PvP flags

Fits are not new, same old speed kills, range kills.

This has been beaten before, even with Tele's. 

But there is so much political BS I would hope it wouldn't be too difficult to pick out what is what.

This isn't anything new, we had this back when, when sides were equal more or less.

In your scenario, your flagged, the other parties now have a window to kill you, more so your just moving your fleet faster through teles, yet the chance of killing remains. 

With this change is swings everything back into the defenders hands, with or with out blob.  The defender can also proxy where with in one island and still have ample time to kill. 

Your frustrations actually shows how successful simple hit and run tactics can be when a smaller for attacks a larger force.  The simple counter to this is easy.  Ask your 62nd guys, they would fight and kill us, (CIR, RG, Morte) all the time in US TZ using simple agile tactics.  I fear most of them will show little recollection of true events due to a scewed political reference.

You deal with this in preparations, anticipate, and deploy. 

Before everyone was on a equal playing ground.  All could use teles to navigate to attack, and defend.  Now it has moved to a full defense.  Detect, Deploy Tele, Kill.    Yes there are ways around this, but I dont wish to give up all my secrets in one post.

The problem, and yes there is a problem, as PHM, Chaos, 62nd, when they were getting there *** kicked how useful Armors were when they needed them, only is with armors.  Meaning the inability to apply ample DPS to stop a fleet from jumping out. (I use the term fleet VERY loosly as the recharge time on Armors is terrible, and a fleet would only get out small amounts before the bots are dead anyway.)

Its actually quite funny you make my case of how much power defenders really have when utilizing teles on islands.   All that is needed is, wait for someone to come on island, drop tele, spot, kill.

Removing the balance of both sides having equal opportunity to move around isn't much of a balance at all.  Its short sighted at best.  Even more so with PVP timers, and PVP on alpha's. 

Two Fixes.
Remove Tele's on Betas (People will go nuts over this)
OR
Increase coolup time, and jump timers for armors. (Cost to 1.5Mill - Well over 4 Light Bots)  Decrease Masking Value.  Tweak Armor Value. 

I would hope we would go from nerfing, to Balancing.

The Gifter
Top  Killer 2013  - 01: 334 -- 17 -- 317  : Merkle
Top  Killer 2012  - 01: 027 -- 472 -- 445 : Merkle

Scarab Kill Count - 13

Re: Mobile teleports and PvP flags

I feel that there are a lot of biased opinions voiced here and this threat turns more and more into a political trash ground, instead of looking at the big picture.

PvP was good when we had no teleports at all.
No jumping from the defending or opposing force. You had to find the next stationary TP and wrap your tactics around that and you were stuck on he island, until you de-flagged. Equal options for both sides. Yet, those TP games sometimes played on inland and outward TP´s, admittedly sucked those days.

Mobile Teleports were introduced. With that, new tactics evolved. Other then the convenience to travel faster over the islands in general, it was also catering for small hit and run gangs, delivering PVP to much bigger opposing forces using "Ninja tactics", trying to avoid the situation, that those small gangs would otherwise just be overrun and stomped by brute force. Its a totally viable tactic, for a fleet commander to not engage, if sides a ridiculously uneven.

The balance to the deployed mobile teleports, is that one can destroy them. I think the general opinion is, that armoured tp´s, are over powered. Were as they should still life up to its name and role, they might need seeing to, or temporally removed from the game altogether.

Removing TP´s from beta is not a solution, as they are a vital tool, for travelling i.e. to gammas.

This change was done with a sledge hammer and vastly limits the pvp option for small gangs and corps. All which needed seeing to, were the armoured teleports, so it seems.

tl;tr
many biased voices in this evolving political discussion. Mobile TP´s were are a viable source of tactic. Armoured TP´s need looking into.

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74 (edited by Burial 2014-04-15 10:12:36)

Re: Mobile teleports and PvP flags

Merkle wrote:

Hehe, this is quite funny.

How should we be playing the game again?

We need to provide those smack-talkers with good amount of fun and content or we are bad, mkay. lol

Re: Mobile teleports and PvP flags

In that respect, reducing the time left on it based on what you jump through (i.e. by robot hitsize - I believe explosion damage is based on this too), thus keeping hit and run tactics viable.