Re: Conserns / Predictions

The worst problem we have is only having two sides to choose from for pvp right now. That gives you only one enemy to choose from if you want to fight. If one side is badly outnumbered at the time, you get no fight. Then, there are no other options to choose from. So everyone *** and moans and cries that there is no pvp.

The only time you then get a chance to pvp, is the gank/logoff trap. Or the lucky chance that both sides can field roughly the same numbers to get both sides to engage. This game needs options. If one side is outnumbered against one opponent, they need to be able to keep looking and find another opponent.

IMO the best thing that can happen to perp is for it to be a game filled with active corporations playing independently, as opposed to the 2 sided half server alliances that have slowly grinded out the funnest parts of perpetuum.

Just my 2 cents..

Those of you lucky enough to have your lives, take them with you. However, leave the mods you've lost. They belong to me now.

Scarab Kill Count:2

Re: Conserns / Predictions

Jita wrote:

People get bored when the fights stop. When it becomes more work than fun. When they get blueballed by opponents or ground down by the mechanics in game required to get fights. When the game lacks the needed risk factors to make fighting territory based rather than objective.

Those people left because the game allowed fear to be a tactical choice. Its the equivalent of a team barricading the doors and windows in COD and a failure in mechanics.

I consider this to be representative of a design flaw both here and in Eve. What you describe -- when opponents begin blueballing, barricading the doors and barring the windows -- in these games, that's what victory feels like. In these games we don't have, to borrow an expression from sports, "the thrill of victory and the agony of defeat." We have "the disappointment of victory and the agony of defeat." In this regard, Eve is no better than Perpetuum, but they get away with it because the larger player base means the defeat of one contender results in the rise of a new, different challenger fairly quickly so the "disappointment" of victory is short-lived.

I think giving players the game they want starts with not giving them what they ask for. If you look back at the results of Eve's CSM meetings over the years, you'll find the nullsec community reps always advocate ways to bring greater wealth to the winners of conflicts while delivering ever-greater pain to the losers. I believe games of this nature need to find ways to help winners feel like winners without having actually won too much, and losers to walk away not feeling so much like losers. The devs need to view themselves as arms dealers. Business is good as long as one side or the other doesn't actually win.

Another thing players ask for that they should never be given is the opportunity to invest so much in something, or acquire something of such value, that they can't fathom ever losing it. To protect these assets, players turn to blobbing and non-aggression pacts. I quit playing before Gamma was introduced, but I think I recall reading a dev blog where they stated the biggest complaint by players was they felt they had to spend all their online time fortifying their defenses to protect their investment.

The scarcest moon mining minerals in Eve were introduced by the devs with the stated intent that they be drivers of conflict. In reality, players responded by creating mega-alliances to defend them and they consequently remained in the same hands for years. Another result being, by holding these huge revenue-generating assets, even if a contender can achieve some tactical victories against a mega-alliance, they will never win the war of attrition.

I think most will agree that the occupants of nullsec in Eve fit nicely into a caste system. The reward/loss mechanics CCP built into nullsec pretty much dictate that the only way to move up a caste is to be absorbed by an entity already there. I think this is a chief reason so many Eve players are hoping for a better game to come along. Perpetuum needs to figure out how to be that better game.

Re: Conserns / Predictions

Shadowmine said:

  IMO the best thing that can happen to perp is for it to be a game filled with active corporations playing independently, as opposed to the 2 sided half server alliances that have slowly grinded out the funnest parts of perpetuum.


I have been saying that for over a year now, and agree 100%.  With low population or even high population 1 group vs 1 group every single day gets old.  I would love to go on a roam, see 2 other corps fighting on the field and strike from the side.  Or fight one battle with 1 group then win or lose fight a completely different battle a few minutes later.  In all the years I have played perp I might have seen that 1 time.  All these corps/alliances need to fight independently for some veriety IMO.

Re: Conserns / Predictions

I'd love to see the current power blocs divide to make the PVP aspect of the game spice up. I know it's only natural for people to want to band together with like minded goals ect. But man would it be fun to have a variety of targets and constant warring between. I mean you could always set rules like what's currently going on in Eve down by Curse, rules are no sov warfare, just plain PVP and to be honest it seems to be working out great cause there's always fun fights to be had with no nasty POS grinding to do.

30 (edited by Blocker 2014-04-02 02:28:38)

Re: Conserns / Predictions

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Getting the players is not the problem, it's keeping them.

Content, content, content...

You want the devs to make money and the game to grow ? Cater to the PVE people
You want more potential targets on beta/gamma ? Cater to the PVE people
You want more opportunities to grow your corp with new players ? Cater to the PVE people

PVE people need content, dynamic events, storyline missions/adventures more space to explore, different types of envirioments etc

As stated in this thread before, the DEVS catered soley to the PVP crowd and that, quite simply, failed. Let's hope a new direction can inject new life and new fun into this great game.

Just for the record, myself and my corp enjoy a bit of pew pew as much as the next guy, we just dont get all worked up about it.. epeen is for ***, real men just say GF..

[edited for my bad typing]

31 (edited by Obi Wan Kenobi 2014-04-02 02:49:28)

Re: Conserns / Predictions

Remember those 2 times this game had 3 main player alliances. When the game first launched & when SQUID alliance was formed.
Was just a shame Wambulance (Hook alliance) wasn't as strong as it once was. But even so so many good times for PVP smile

I can happen again! But it might take time as any new player need to get the EP 7 Skills to know how to fight effectively in this game.


In the past a reason why we have had so few power blocks in this game has been simply down to the number of PVP islands.

When we had Beta islands only you had 6 islands in 3 groups. If  a group of players got powerful enough they would always influence at least 2 Beta (normally one of the 3 sets of beta islands).

If Gammas are re balanced there SHOULD now be sufficient room for new groups to emerge on the PVP seen.

True Pros make a Podcast to influence the Devs minds, 
The rest of you guys are Hacks tongue

PS. I got my Highways & stopped playing b4 they came in & have never used them! ...... Irony much ? tongue

Re: Conserns / Predictions

Hey Syndic, you reading this?  I just had to get a scarab to haul all these tears back to alpha.

Steam achievement Unlocked:  Being a Badass
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Dev Zoom: I think its time to confess, Ville is my alt
Dev Zoom: Ville can be sometimes so sane it's scary.

Re: Conserns / Predictions

I will bottle this delicacy for a special occasion.

There's no need for our powerbloc to disband since we discovered the joy of blowing each other up for great lulz.

You are now irrelevant to us since we have no further use for you. You have our permission to disband.

[18:20:30] <GLiMPSE> Chairman Of My Heart o/
CIR Complaint Form

The Imperial Grand Wizard of Justice

Re: Conserns / Predictions

Ville wrote:

Hey Syndic, you reading this?  I just had to get a scarab to haul all these tears back to alpha.

I hope you used an armoured tp

Why not help out the perpetuum wiki?

[15:13:02] <DEV Zoom> yeah, our servers are run by goats, they lick the cogs to keep everything smooth

Re: Conserns / Predictions

There is no reason for your power block to disband, you have clearly shown that you have trouble fighting the 5 or 6 of us in 1 corp.  Seriously dont kid yourselfs, you need that alliance to make up for the lack of skill.  Im glad to see you guys playing again instead of crying about perp while playing another game. Welcome back smile

Re: Conserns / Predictions

Syndic wrote:

I will bottle this delicacy for a special occasion.

There's no need for our powerbloc to disband since we discovered the joy of blowing each other up for great lulz.

You are now irrelevant to us since we have no further use for you. You have our permission to disband.

If the devs ever wonder why their pond is so small, they need look no further than the fish that are in it. smile

Re: Conserns / Predictions

Lucian Night wrote:

There is no reason for your power block to disband, you have clearly shown that you have trouble fighting the 5 or 6 of us in 1 corp.  Seriously dont kid yourselfs, you need that alliance to make up for the lack of skill.  Im glad to see you guys playing again instead of crying about perp while playing another game. Welcome back smile

Can't help it that your allies are equally useless or not playing the game roll

Reading this signature fills you with determination.

Re: Conserns / Predictions

Doesent change what I said Beast, wish we had help but hey, not doing to bad for 1 corp vs 5+  but its all in good fun, glad to see people playing again.

Re: Conserns / Predictions

Syndic wrote:

I will bottle this delicacy for a special occasion.

There's no need for our powerbloc to disband since we discovered the joy of blowing each other up for great lulz.

You are now irrelevant to us since we have no further use for you. You have our permission to disband.

http://www.perp-kill.net/?m=related&id=256376

Re: Conserns / Predictions

Lucian Night wrote:

There is no reason for your power block to disband, you have clearly shown that you have trouble fighting the 5 or 6 of us in 1 corp.  Seriously dont kid yourselfs, you need that alliance to make up for the lack of skill.  Im glad to see you guys playing again instead of crying about perp while playing another game. Welcome back smile


Holy *** it's the Taco! Man, it's been awhile. Join JOKE

Re: Conserns / Predictions

Lucian Night wrote:

There is no reason for your power block to disband, you have clearly shown that you have trouble fighting the 5 or 6 of us in 1 corp.  Seriously dont kid yourselfs, you need that alliance to make up for the lack of skill.  Im glad to see you guys playing again instead of crying about perp while playing another game. Welcome back smile

Its a shame when the recruitment corp is beating you down.

Steam achievement Unlocked:  Being a Badass
http://www.perp-kill.net/kill/239407
Dev Zoom: I think its time to confess, Ville is my alt
Dev Zoom: Ville can be sometimes so sane it's scary.

Re: Conserns / Predictions

Burial wrote:
Syndic wrote:

I will bottle this delicacy for a special occasion.

There's no need for our powerbloc to disband since we discovered the joy of blowing each other up for great lulz.

You are now irrelevant to us since we have no further use for you. You have our permission to disband.

http://www.perp-kill.net/?m=related&id=256376

http://www.perp-kill.net/?m=related&id=256327
http://www.perp-kill.net/?m=related&id=248575
http://www.perp-kill.net/?m=related&id=253368
http://www.perp-kill.net/?m=related&id=248670

[18:20:30] <GLiMPSE> Chairman Of My Heart o/
CIR Complaint Form

The Imperial Grand Wizard of Justice

Re: Conserns / Predictions

Taco wrote:

I think giving players the game they want starts with not giving them what they ask for. If you look back at the results of Eve's CSM meetings over the years, you'll find the nullsec community reps always advocate ways to bring greater wealth to the winners of conflicts while delivering ever-greater pain to the losers. I believe games of this nature need to find ways to help winners feel like winners without having actually won too much, and losers to walk away not feeling so much like losers. The devs need to view themselves as arms dealers. Business is good as long as one side or the other doesn't actually win.

Really good post Taco. Talking about loss: In Eve Null sec you can loose your Station but not your assets and that gives you a chance to get all your stuff back, but here on Gamma you loose everything and there is no way on getting you assets back, no wonder players turtled up. Its ok loosing bots, but when you loose a gamma here, you loosing 1000s of hours of work, and after that I can't blame a corp for leaving the game.

Therefore something needs to change in that respect, because if you risk everything on gamma and it's going to be even higher risk to loose everything then there is no point in puting them back after the wipe.

RIP PERPETUUM

Re: Conserns / Predictions

Celebro there hasn't been a real gamma base wiped off the map that was actively defended.  When I mean actively I'm talking more than the one or two try hards who didn't want lose what ghosts of the past already left.

1.  Merkle brings the server to novaya.  He's defeated.
2.  TOG base rick rolled, two, three try hards.
3.  STC first base on Davis Rick rolled, little defense.
4.  Dream base rolled, 2/3 defenders by Chaos.
5.  Imediro seiged by chaos was defeated by actively defended players.
6.  Bergers defended twice.
7.  Bergers fell on third attempt and langhrum when everyone stopped playing.  One or two try hards attempted defense.
8.  Landers fell 3-4 people tried to defend it.
9.  Maoshan base fell cause no one played.
10. Bluemon attempted defense but due to lack of pvp knowledge failed miserably.
11. Xiantor had a couple try hards defend it failed.
12.  Langhrum hardly anyone defended.

All the bases fell for one reason, no one could be asked to defend them.  It is a harsh reality to think of it as all or nothing.  But Gammas favor heavily the defender.

Steam achievement Unlocked:  Being a Badass
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Dev Zoom: I think its time to confess, Ville is my alt
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45 (edited by Annihilator 2014-04-02 17:48:10)

Re: Conserns / Predictions

Celebro wrote:

Really good post Taco. Talking about loss: In Eve Null sec you can loose your Station but not your assets and that gives you a chance to get all your stuff back, but here on Gamma you loose everything and there is no way on getting you assets back, no wonder players turtled up. Its ok loosing bots, but when you loose a gamma here, you loosing 1000s of hours of work, and after that I can't blame a corp for leaving the game.

Therefore something needs to change in that respect, because if you risk everything on gamma and it's going to be even higher risk to loose everything then there is no point in puting them back after the wipe.

this forums really missing the "like" button for posts.

why you start so late. the total loss already begins with losing your bot in PvE and all the npc-kill bounty with it. Ever wondered why noone really goes in a single combat bot on beta islands to kill a few npcs, and happily engages in PvP when someone surprises him? *

Not only does PvP require completely different gear then PvE, it also means that in case of defeat you lose everything you did since you have undocked your robot. Eventually you get a meager insurance payout.
Even in EVE you keep your npc kill bounty when you ship explodes.

That you cannot even activate a weapon that you theoretically could equip on your mining bot, without losing the ability to dock the station that you could eventually reach when your attacker had to fear any incomming damage, surely had helped with the "casual PvP" situation too.

edit:
*= single exceptions prove the rule!

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Conserns / Predictions

Ville wrote:

Celebro there hasn't been a real gamma base wiped off the map that was actively defended.  When I mean actively I'm talking more than the one or two try hards who didn't want lose what ghosts of the past already left.

1.  Merkle brings the server to novaya.  He's defeated.
2.  TOG base rick rolled, two, three try hards.
3.  STC first base on Davis Rick rolled, little defense.
4.  Dream base rolled, 2/3 defenders by Chaos.
5.  Imediro seiged by chaos was defeated by actively defended players.
6.  Bergers defended twice.
7.  Bergers fell on third attempt and langhrum when everyone stopped playing.  One or two try hards attempted defense.
8.  Landers fell 3-4 people tried to defend it.
9.  Maoshan base fell cause no one played.
10. Bluemon attempted defense but due to lack of pvp knowledge failed miserably.
11. Xiantor had a couple try hards defend it failed.
12.  Langhrum hardly anyone defended.

All the bases fell for one reason, no one could be asked to defend them.  It is a harsh reality to think of it as all or nothing.  But Gammas favor heavily the defender.

Ville, you forgot to toggle [troll/on]

But before you do, I pretty much agree with this assessment about defended Gammas. Might question how one or two of them went down but agree with most of your assessments there as well.

Re: Conserns / Predictions

With regards to gamma bases dying and full loot I kind of agree. Perhaps gamma bases should be NPC based like beta and allow you to capture and then improve them. This would fix that while maintaining gameplay.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: Conserns / Predictions

Annihilator wrote:
Celebro wrote:

Really good post Taco. Talking about loss: In Eve Null sec you can loose your Station but not your assets and that gives you a chance to get all your stuff back, but here on Gamma you loose everything and there is no way on getting you assets back, no wonder players turtled up. Its ok loosing bots, but when you loose a gamma here, you loosing 1000s of hours of work, and after that I can't blame a corp for leaving the game.

Therefore something needs to change in that respect, because if you risk everything on gamma and it's going to be even higher risk to loose everything then there is no point in puting them back after the wipe.

this forums really missing the "like" button for posts.

why you start so late. the total loss already begins with losing your bot in PvE and all the npc-kill bounty with it. Ever wondered why noone really goes in a single combat bot on beta islands to kill a few npcs, and happily engages in PvP when someone surprises him? *

Not only does PvP require completely different gear then PvE, it also means that in case of defeat you lose everything you did since you have undocked your robot. Eventually you get a meager insurance payout.
Even in EVE you keep your npc kill bounty when you ship explodes.

That you cannot even activate a weapon that you theoretically could equip on your mining bot, without losing the ability to dock the station that you could eventually reach when your attacker had to fear any incomming damage, surely had helped with the "casual PvP" situation too.

edit:
*= single exceptions prove the rule!

Anni,

You make a very valid point.  I remember the days when we farmed NPCs for hours on Beta.  It was the only way to unlock T4 stuff.  We spent months grinding for just One or Two items.  Ahh the days..  But alas, beta/gamma is designed for team play.  These team plays are things like multiple follow bots, detectors, logged off haulers, gate scouts.  The games not designed around solo content.  There is no real sense of PVE, just an awesome crafting system and pew pew.   So it really is hard to judge it on solo content.  Just my two cents.

Steam achievement Unlocked:  Being a Badass
http://www.perp-kill.net/kill/239407
Dev Zoom: I think its time to confess, Ville is my alt
Dev Zoom: Ville can be sometimes so sane it's scary.

Re: Conserns / Predictions

Jita wrote:

With regards to gamma bases dying and full loot I kind of agree. Perhaps gamma bases should be NPC based like beta and allow you to capture and then improve them. This would fix that while maintaining gameplay.

That would mean the first 12 bases on an island are permanent.

Steam achievement Unlocked:  Being a Badass
http://www.perp-kill.net/kill/239407
Dev Zoom: I think its time to confess, Ville is my alt
Dev Zoom: Ville can be sometimes so sane it's scary.

Re: Conserns / Predictions

Ville, I mean in the future with no 'walls', if a Corp loses their base/s on gamma. There needs to be a reason to keep playing, make them feel they have something they can do about such a big loss, but with everything lost many won't bother logging back in, other than a few die hards.

So what can be done? I think gamma will be good with some hybrid beta/gamma setup where once you build up a base the terminal can't be taken down, but can change ownership or something along these lines. Obviously there would be a hard limit of number of terminals per island. I think 2-3 should be the max. With a max of 1 per corp.

Anni: We can agree that Perpetuum is less forgiving than Eve, which in fact is pretty hard to achieve considering Eve reputation.

RIP PERPETUUM