226 (edited by Inda 2014-01-26 09:18:42)

Re: Gamma Balancing

With limits, like the -50 to +50, you are limited to what you can terraform.


I suggested this exactly.

The penalty for beacon terrafroming would be the solution.
But seems like that hard to code this is why they cant implement it now.

Energy to Earth!

18.01.2014. [12:57:58] <BeastmodeGuNs> after that i remembered all those warning about 1v1 you lol, and i found out why xD

227

Re: Gamma Balancing

Delcimus wrote:

Please tell me where in this game, and in life, where landscape is not used for LOS defense?
The problem is with wide opened terraforming, of course its the de facto defense.

With limits, like the -50 to +50, you are limited to what you can terraform. And you then have a reason to place wall structures on top of a terraced base for additional LOS defense. This SEVERLY limits how radically you can change the landscape, invalidates most of the common teleport walls we have today, and still allows siege cover terraforming. With pretty much using the same mechanics currently in game. A minimal fix with a huge impact on how things go forward.

There is a difference between using TF to create LOS defense and using TF to create walls and barriers; and not just 'barriers' but impassable barriers.

The +/- 50 doesn't stop using TF to create impassable barriers. I don't care if the US army uses bulldozers in real life, this is a game and the mechanics need to be balanced within the confines of the other existing mechanics.

To be exact here, Perp is a 2D ground based combat system and TF is 3D. Unless or until we get 3D combat, devs are going to have to limit TF to work with the 2D mechanics.

Re: Gamma Balancing

Arga wrote:

To be exact here, Perp is a 2D ground based combat system and TF is 3D. Unless or until we get 3D combat, devs are going to have to limit TF to work with the 2D mechanics.

You should have said that 2 Years ago. big_smile

RIP PERPETUUM

229

Re: Gamma Balancing

Celebro wrote:
Arga wrote:

To be exact here, Perp is a 2D ground based combat system and TF is 3D. Unless or until we get 3D combat, devs are going to have to limit TF to work with the 2D mechanics.

You should have said that 2 Years ago. big_smile

What, and miss out on 1000's of gamma related posts!?!?

My subscription runs out this week, trying to drop a few gems on the way out.

230 (edited by Cassius 2014-01-28 04:30:30)

Re: Gamma Balancing

Arga wrote:
Delcimus wrote:

Please tell me where in this game, and in life, where landscape is not used for LOS defense?
The problem is with wide opened terraforming, of course its the de facto defense.

With limits, like the -50 to +50, you are limited to what you can terraform. And you then have a reason to place wall structures on top of a terraced base for additional LOS defense. This SEVERLY limits how radically you can change the landscape, invalidates most of the common teleport walls we have today, and still allows siege cover terraforming. With pretty much using the same mechanics currently in game. A minimal fix with a huge impact on how things go forward.

There is a difference between using TF to create LOS defense and using TF to create walls and barriers; and not just 'barriers' but impassable barriers.

The +/- 50 doesn't stop using TF to create impassable barriers. I don't care if the US army uses bulldozers in real life, this is a game and the mechanics need to be balanced within the confines of the other existing mechanics.

To be exact here, Perp is a 2D ground based combat system and TF is 3D. Unless or until we get 3D combat, devs are going to have to limit TF to work with the 2D mechanics.


I guess it all boils down to what the Devs vision of what they expect it to be.

They gave us super powerful tools and no limits and over time it evolved into huge island fortresses with turret spam and walls designed to be difficult or impossibly time consuming to breach.

People lived on Gamma because the tools to make a safe base were available. Overpowered, but available.
If the Devs nerf Gamma terraforming the other way, and you cannot even build a "safe" base, no one will bother to live or settle Gamma. Simple.

We don't need turtle islands ever again. Make sure external teleports can never be closed ... I think also no terraforming within 200-500 m of external coastlines would also help this.

A -50 tp +50 doesnt allow for huge time consuming to penetrate terraformed defenses, but it still allows for walls around your fort. I am hard pressed to think of a real world example of an outpost in hostile territory that did not have wall. And the variance allows for leveling of areas for structures, and requires different strategy on the differently landscaped islands.  The suggestion for wall units as the primary defensive structure .. . I dunno, most wall units on terrain, especially on slopes and diagonals, do not look astetically pleasing as well. And their current lifespan does not do much for bases on Gamma, unless you could build a wall repairing structure in your base that self repaired your walls every time a Jasdemi scarab was killed.

I don't want the terraforming beacons removed, I think the plans and being able to design detailed bases, walls, and ramps is one of the games best feature. Just change it so its not so overpowered .

231 (edited by Celebro 2014-01-28 16:33:03)

Re: Gamma Balancing

Walls on beta without a huge nerf didn't work, I start wondering why they thought it was going to work on gamma, where the 'mudwalls' are even more OP.

edit:Thinking about this further, I don't want terraforming to become obsolete as the wall nerf did to Beta, which is barely used if ever, so what kind compromise/balance can be reached?. I don't think is possible with so little Development time, a new wall system that works well with terraforming is the only idea that comes to mind.

RIP PERPETUUM

232

Re: Gamma Balancing

Cassius wrote:

I am hard pressed to think of a real world example of an outpost in hostile territory that did not have wall.

And real life attackers have mortors, helicopoters, bombs, and missles.

Even in a classical castle siege, attackers had trebuche's, gate rams, and scaling ladders.

But the point is really, that you can't compare 'real' combat and fortifications with games, because games have a limited set of mechanics.

If Perp is going to have impassable barriers, then it needs other game mechanics to counter that. Yes, counter-TF can be used, but from a playablity view, its boring.

Attacks need to be more dynamic. CIR left the front door open on our first gamma, because we wanted people to attack. We used turrets and terraforming to create 'kill zones', not barriers. That was a fun attack scenrio, not 4 hours of cat and mouse trying to TF a ramp into an undefended base.

233 (edited by Obi Wan Kenobi 2014-01-29 03:51:53)

Re: Gamma Balancing

Celebro wrote:

Walls on beta without a huge nerf didn't work, I start wondering why they thought it was going to work on gamma, where the 'mudwalls' are even more OP.

edit:Thinking about this further, I don't want terraforming to become obsolete as the wall nerf did to Beta, which is barely used if ever, so what kind compromise/balance can be reached?. I don't think is possible with so little Development time, a new wall system that works well with terraforming is the only idea that comes to mind.

I've been saying for a long time now that walls as we have them should be removed & real proper modular wallsbe developed & implemented.  Walls that mechs can walk on top of, that we can "deploy" onto the terrain & construct like MPCs & that enemy mechs can shoot at to make breaches.
Where Turrets can be built INTO or on the walls providing them whith a boost in either HP or resists.
Shield gates that we can Password lock / standings lock w/e.

Keeps walls off Beta islands they have never led to good fun game play on those islands & never will.

True Pros make a Podcast to influence the Devs minds, 
The rest of you guys are Hacks tongue

PS. I got my Highways & stopped playing b4 they came in & have never used them! ...... Irony much ? tongue

Re: Gamma Balancing

Oh walls. Put them behind mech impassable to be out of LOS and keep the lights out too. Not sure we'd see any real difference from Turtle-Cliff-Terraforming versus Turtle-Wall-Terraforming.

But hey go for it.

235

Re: Gamma Balancing

Rage Rex wrote:

Oh walls. Put them behind mech impassable to be out of LOS and keep the lights out too. Not sure we'd see any real difference from Turtle-Cliff-Terraforming versus Turtle-Wall-Terraforming.

But hey go for it.

Walls are decaying slowly, so at least if you gonna try and turtle, you will pay a lots of attention, NICs and manhours. Then there are sequers and Mk2 assaults that can carry bombs.

Have a productive day, runner!
R.I.P. Chenoa, you'll never be forgotten.
DEV Zoom: Line, sorry, I was away for christmas.
http://perp-kill.net/?m=view&id=252086

Re: Gamma Balancing

Line wrote:
Rage Rex wrote:

Oh walls. Put them behind mech impassable to be out of LOS and keep the lights out too. Not sure we'd see any real difference from Turtle-Cliff-Terraforming versus Turtle-Wall-Terraforming.

But hey go for it.

Walls are decaying slowly, so at least if you gonna try and turtle, you will pay a lots of attention, NICs and manhours. Then there are sequers and Mk2 assaults that can carry bombs.

Wow, huge difference there. I did not think of that ...you would have to like put out those little repair beacons once a week. Damn, that will be way too hard to maintain.

I know my light roaming squads just love to drag around sequers and bombs. Masking Sequer of Ninja will never be seen!

Sparking to other games