1 (edited by Burial 2014-01-25 15:12:47)

Topic: Sensor Amplification

Sensor Amps and Remote Sensor Amps are a requirement in PVP. They are the Navigation 10 of fitting modules.

I propose nerfing SA and RSA to both be 15% locking range and -10% locking speed.

Additionally I propose beefing up stock robots locking range and time to the point that they would give the same results with the nerfed SA and RSA as they do now, so nothing would be lost on the range and speed front.

RSAs are the biggest reason people field follow bots. If they would be removed or devalued from the game, it would make the follow-nerf more or less unnessecary IMO since reps and energy can easily be taken over by specialized players unlike RSAs.


Thoughts?

2 (edited by Rage Rex 2014-01-24 23:36:32)

Re: Sensor Amplification

Sensor Amp is a MUST HAVE module. It's really very rare that I not use one.

Once a module is a MUST HAVE our other fitting variations are lessened, and thus that particular module deserves some attention and balancing.

Perhaps overhaul to entire Default Robot Locking Range/Time, Sensor Amps, and Remote Sensor Amps. However, this would require significant thought and balancing that would be a disaster in this forum with current biases and low population effect on current strategy and tactics.

In Short, for now, HELL NO on RSA nerf

-1

Don't even go there at this time Devs. You have bigger fish to fry.

3 (edited by Rage Rex 2014-01-24 23:49:49)

Re: Sensor Amplification

Oh, and Burial you're already getting your Follow Bot nerf for the purpose of limiting pay2win multi-account abuse. One of the biggest losers in that nerf are RSA users. Don't you think we should take a look at the other 99 ways to abuse multiple accounts and pay2win tactics?

Or was it always about ewar range, like I have been saying?

Reality of forum campaign to "reduce competitiveness" of "pay2win" multi-account "abuse":
1.) nerf Follow
2.) nerf RSA
3.) nerf NEXUS
4.) nerf ewar strength
5.) nerf Zenith
6.) buff Heavy Mech sensor strength

Finally, no more pay2win multi-account abuse!

Re: Sensor Amplification

I do think the idea is worth exploring. Even reducing the bonus of Rsa and SA and buffing or adding extensions for locking time and range etc.

Those of you lucky enough to have your lives, take them with you. However, leave the mods you've lost. They belong to me now.

Scarab Kill Count:2

Re: Sensor Amplification

Shadowmine wrote:

I do think the idea is worth exploring. Even reducing the bonus of Rsa and SA and buffing or adding extensions for locking time and range etc.

Shadow, I'm shocked that you agree with this!

6 (edited by Martha Stuart 2014-01-25 10:10:24)

Re: Sensor Amplification

Rage Rex wrote:
Shadowmine wrote:

I do think the idea is worth exploring. Even reducing the bonus of Rsa and SA and buffing or adding extensions for locking time and range etc.

Shadow, I'm shocked that you agree with this!

We don't always disagree with you for political reasons.  I agree with you, Burial, and Shadow.  Once something becomes a must have, it should be looked at to see if it is necessary or a waste, like the navigation skill was.

We also have EWAR pilots that will suffer from the Nerf.  Myself included,  but I believe that in the long run it will be better for the the game.

7 (edited by Burial 2014-01-25 12:06:58)

Re: Sensor Amplification

Rage Rex wrote:

Sensor Amp is a MUST HAVE module. It's really very rare that I not use one.

Once a module is a MUST HAVE our other fitting variations are lessened, and thus that particular module deserves some attention and balancing.

Perhaps overhaul to entire Default Robot Locking Range/Time, Sensor Amps, and Remote Sensor Amps. However, this would require significant thought and balancing that would be a disaster in this forum with current biases and low population effect on current strategy and tactics.

In Short, for now, HELL NO on RSA nerf

-1

Don't even go there at this time Devs. You have bigger fish to fry.

I colored what you said that I perceive to be the problem.

It's a balance issue and probably not very high in the priority list but here's my suggestion:
Add a double Sensor Amp bonus to every bot and then take away 20% from locking time and 20% from locking time. Modify Sensor Amps and Remote Sensor Amps to both add 10% to both locking range and time so in the end we end up with similar ranges and locking times.

Re: Sensor Amplification

Burial wrote:

RSAs are the biggest reason people field follow bots. If they would be removed from the game, would make the follow-nerf more or less unnessecary IMO since reps and energy can easily be taken over by specialized players unlike RSAs.

Solutions I come up with are:
1. Divide RSA bonuses by half, making two of them as effective as 1 on a follow-bot.
2. Simply remove them from the game and make everyone rely on local amps.

Thoughts?

I'm having a hard time figuring out if your just trolling or not?

No RSA's are fine you got your (Or I mean Zoom got his) Follow bot nerf If peanut wants to drive Voltron and RSA/Rep and transfer every one thats his thing. RSA have an application they work well with long range snipers, Ewar and short range farm fits.

Taking items out or Nerfing them is now FOTM
1. Learn to E-war better
2. Look for items that counter RSA'd bots (interference and Suppression?)
3.Playing ERP shotgun Mesmer is fun but its not the only aspect of this game.
4. Last I checked a follow bot with (in your opinion OP Ewar) E-war on it was useless.

How about we instead add robots and items that make every thing more balanced.

Anonymous: lobo is the only hero left in this god foresaken game / :also, Lobo is god among men
http://killboard.sequer.nl/?a=agent-his … mp;month=7 Best month 104 to 1 k/d

9 (edited by Burial 2014-01-25 12:36:12)

Re: Sensor Amplification

Despite what you think, I do play my Vagabond and I have high skills for that. I enjoy it more because it doesn't require a follow-bot most of the time like my Mesmer does but hopefully it will change at one point when balancing hits the heavies. (Same reason I'm sometimes in my ERP Mesmer by the way: Doesn't require a follow!)

Look past all the illuminati and policital non-sense and think. I got that removing RSA completely is too radical but what I proposed is to just reduce both SA and RSA effectiveness and adding the lost locking time and range to default robot stats.

By the way, do you always think that whatever STC suggests is all part of a secret grand game manipulation? Must be hard being you.

Re: Sensor Amplification

Burial wrote:

Despite what you think, I do play my Vagabond and I have high skills for that. I enjoy it more because it doesn't require a follow-bot most of the time like my Mesmer does but hopefully it will change at one point when balancing hits the heavies. (Same reason I'm sometimes in my ERP Mesmer by the way: Doesn't require a follow!)

Look past all the illuminati and policital non-sense and think. I got that removing RSA completely is too radical but what I proposed is to just reduce both SA and RSA effectiveness and adding the lost locking time and range to default robot stats.

By the way, do you always think that whatever STC suggests is all part of a secret grand game manipulation? Must be hard being you.

Ok so if its gained back in robot balancing whats the point?

And yeah Bro lately it seems like your just taking swings at what ever style is our FOTY.

Anonymous: lobo is the only hero left in this god foresaken game / :also, Lobo is god among men
http://killboard.sequer.nl/?a=agent-his … mp;month=7 Best month 104 to 1 k/d

Re: Sensor Amplification

There are lot of ppl who can use suppressors and ECMs. Number of headslots are limited. That's why the ppl forced to use followbots. How you can "unload your hear"? - use RSA's and nexus modules in follow bot. Of course there is the problems with leg slots as well. There we have Energy transferers and remote armor repairers.

Cameleon - best booster bot. You can fit 2xRSA, 2xNexus modules and masker.
Rivelers or symbionts can provide repair and energy trasfer process.

Summary: you will be more effective if you have two additional accounts. Your squad will be definely stronger if everybody will use followbots.

@ Rex

Bud, we all understand that you and your alliance had some investments. But this investments spoiled the game, and going to spoil it in future.

The theory of mutual interests
Why the crybabies wins?
Где Ханя - там победа (с)
DEV Zoom: No need to speculate...

12 (edited by Grond 2014-01-25 15:00:23)

Re: Sensor Amplification

Hunter wrote:

Summary: you will be more effective if you have two additional accounts. Your squad will be definely stronger if everybody will use followbots.

This is not true, a squad with 20 acc where half is followbots vs  a squad of 20 where all is ppl the squad with ppl will win every time. the "followbot" problem only exist now because its 10 ppl thats playing the game

Re: Sensor Amplification

Grond wrote:
Hunter wrote:

Summary: you will be more effective if you have two additional accounts. Your squad will be definely stronger if everybody will use followbots.

This is not true, a squad with 20 acc where half is followbots vs  a squad of 20 where all is ppl the squad with ppl will win every time. the "followbot" problem only exist now because its 10 ppl thats playing the game

+1

Thread is bias

Undefeated 2013
"Even alone you probably are one of the best" - Khader Khan
"Lemon the 1 man army .... also know as: THE TERMINATOR!" - Obi Wan
"There are people who are just better then you at doing many things at one time, some are far better then myself, far better." -Merkle

14 (edited by Burial 2014-01-25 15:15:01)

Re: Sensor Amplification

Lobo wrote:
Burial wrote:

Despite what you think, I do play my Vagabond and I have high skills for that. I enjoy it more because it doesn't require a follow-bot most of the time like my Mesmer does but hopefully it will change at one point when balancing hits the heavies. (Same reason I'm sometimes in my ERP Mesmer by the way: Doesn't require a follow!)

Look past all the illuminati and policital non-sense and think. I got that removing RSA completely is too radical but what I proposed is to just reduce both SA and RSA effectiveness and adding the lost locking time and range to default robot stats.

By the way, do you always think that whatever STC suggests is all part of a secret grand game manipulation? Must be hard being you.

Ok so if its gained back in robot balancing whats the point?

And yeah Bro lately it seems like your just taking swings at what ever style is our FOTY.

You mean whats the point with nerfing SA and RSA when the end ranges and locking speeds are the same? Well, they aren't the same if that's what you mean. If an agent gets double amped he ends up with same locking speed and locking range, sure, but anyone not getting double amped will have better locking speed and range than now. Like Rex pointed out, right now boosting sensors is a must-have but after the nerf it could be could-have.

T4 sensor amp is 45% locking range and -30% locking speed. With maxed skills, locking speed bonus grows to -42%. Don't you find it ridiculously high for a module that you can fit two of? What I propose is to make it somewhere in the range of 10-15% locking range and -10% locking speed per module(both SA and RSA). That way it's not a must have module all the time.

How exactly does it affect you more than anyone else?

// Anyway, I'm not a developer and it's not an announcement. What I'm trying to create is healthy discussion so no need for any trolling or other non-sense.

15 (edited by Merkle 2014-01-25 20:12:33)

Re: Sensor Amplification

I find this interesting that we have a thread saying how all other head slots are useless (Tuner thread) and then we wish to buff a bot to not use a sensor amp.

Talking about this one http://forums.perpetuum-online.com/topi … e-modules/ .


And the solution is not to add stuff, this is already off the table due to resources.  In any case balance what you have now.  It will make it much more easy to add in new stuff later.

The Gifter
Top  Killer 2013  - 01: 334 -- 17 -- 317  : Merkle
Top  Killer 2012  - 01: 027 -- 472 -- 445 : Merkle

Scarab Kill Count - 13

Re: Sensor Amplification

Burial wrote:
Rage Rex wrote:

Sensor Amp is a MUST HAVE module. It's really very rare that I not use one.

Once a module is a MUST HAVE our other fitting variations are lessened, and thus that particular module deserves some attention and balancing.

Perhaps overhaul to entire Default Robot Locking Range/Time, Sensor Amps, and Remote Sensor Amps. However, this would require significant thought and balancing that would be a disaster in this forum with current biases and low population effect on current strategy and tactics.

In Short, for now, HELL NO on RSA nerf


Burial wrote:
Lobo wrote:

And yeah Bro lately it seems like your just taking swings at what ever style is our FOTY.

You mean whats the point with nerfing SA and RSA when the end ranges and locking speeds are the same? Well, they aren't the same if that's what you mean. If an agent gets double amped he ends up with same locking speed and locking range, sure, but anyone not getting double amped will have better locking speed and range than now. Like Rex pointed out, right now boosting sensors is a must-have but after the nerf it could be could-have.

I'll bet in math you always forget to carry the negative and thus get wrong answers.

You take my word Balance and turn it to Nerf. Then you say that by reducing a modules strength you no longer need ONE ...right then you need TWO.

You're either pretty dumb or just a total spin myster and word twister like you seem to be.

17 (edited by Hunter 2014-01-26 09:51:58)

Re: Sensor Amplification

Lemon wrote:
Grond wrote:
Hunter wrote:

Summary: you will be more effective if you have two additional accounts. Your squad will be definely stronger if everybody will use followbots.

This is not true, a squad with 20 acc where half is followbots vs  a squad of 20 where all is ppl the squad with ppl will win every time. the "followbot" problem only exist now because its 10 ppl thats playing the game

+1

Thread is bias

It's already answered. I think no point copypaste here.

The theory of mutual interests
Why the crybabies wins?
Где Ханя - там победа (с)
DEV Zoom: No need to speculate...

Re: Sensor Amplification

Hunter wrote:

Bud, we all understand that you and your alliance had some investments. But this investments spoiled the game, and going to spoil it in future.

If you are talking about RSA followbots "spoiling the game", then you are incorrect.

The only reason it is getting nerfed is because someone in another thread said that multi-account pvp needs to be nerfed even though there have been almost no complaints in game.

Ohh ya, still waiting for the multi-account indy nerf as that also gives too much advantage over the single indy account guy.

"...we will take undefended gammas and stations."  -Cassius of STC

Re: Sensor Amplification

Additionally, what about the single account guy that has to split EP between pvp and indy?  No fair, we need to nerf players that focus EP to give the single pvp/indy guy a fighting chance.

Zoom, if we don't implement this before steam release, my crystal ball tells me that 10's of thousands of single account players will quit in the first month alone.

Perp Dev Team 2014 motto: "Have Whiners, Will Nerf"

"...we will take undefended gammas and stations."  -Cassius of STC

Re: Sensor Amplification

Right about now, someone needs to start running around screaming "power projection, power projection".

The Gifter
Top  Killer 2013  - 01: 334 -- 17 -- 317  : Merkle
Top  Killer 2012  - 01: 027 -- 472 -- 445 : Merkle

Scarab Kill Count - 13

Re: Sensor Amplification

Merkle wrote:

Right about now, someone needs to start running around screaming "power projection, power projection".

But wont my erp mesmer beat them all!

Undefeated 2013
"Even alone you probably are one of the best" - Khader Khan
"Lemon the 1 man army .... also know as: THE TERMINATOR!" - Obi Wan
"There are people who are just better then you at doing many things at one time, some are far better then myself, far better." -Merkle

Re: Sensor Amplification

Merkle wrote:

Right about now, someone needs to start running around screaming "power projection, power projection".

True story, back in October when the spark-power projection debate started (and very few people believed in it), I told Balfizar that if we take one station that all the rest would fall pretty readily.

Balf did not really believe me, (besides all he wanted was to get Dom back), but Balf decided to humor me and we decided to run an experiment and see if we could take all of NIA once we took Dom.

What we found (to my surprise) is that after Heydelhorn and Moyar fell, the rest of STC & allied outposts went much quicker than we ever expected.

The spark fueled power projection was so absolute that we decided to hit your gammas (again with astounding success).

This experiment showed that using sparks to power project was not a theory but reality.  Now you may have noticed that recently our side has not been complaining as vigorously about sparks as we are the new "Kings of the Hill".  Even so, I still think 10 sparks per player is bad for the game, but if Zoom wants to take his good ol time, who am I to complain.  The view is pretty nice from up here. big_smile

"...we will take undefended gammas and stations."  -Cassius of STC

23 (edited by Cassius 2014-01-28 04:09:05)

Re: Sensor Amplification

Mongolia Jones wrote:
Merkle wrote:

Right about now, someone needs to start running around screaming "power projection, power projection".

True story, back in October when the spark-power projection debate started (and very few people believed in it), I told Balfizar that if we take one station that all the rest would fall pretty readily.

Balf did not really believe me, (besides all he wanted was to get Dom back), but Balf decided to humor me and we decided to run an experiment and see if we could take all of NIA once we took Dom.

What we found (to my surprise) is that after Heydelhorn and Moyar fell, the rest of STC & allied outposts went much quicker than we ever expected.

The spark fueled power projection was so absolute that we decided to hit your gammas (again with astounding success).

This experiment showed that using sparks to power project was not a theory but reality.  Now you may have noticed that recently our side has not been complaining as vigorously about sparks as we are the new "Kings of the Hill".  Even so, I still think 10 sparks per player is bad for the game, but if Zoom wants to take his good ol time, who am I to complain.  The view is pretty nice from up here. big_smile


Umm when STC takes Betas and Gammas, they're undefended.
When you take Betas and Gammas they're .... undefended?!?  You had the numbers, we didn't when you started, and the results were predicted, and expected, by us.

You have not done anything we did not expect.  SpT wasn't the reason you were able to.
You could have done it with half the sparks.  If there was a problem with SpT it was never the amount, it was the no cooldown between them. Missions and tokens production would not have been possible if a cooldown of longer than the time it took to walk between the farthest stations to get assignments was in place, and thats about 10 minutes. You guys could do most anything PvP wise in 10 minutes if you were smart about it. Your arguments against it were made in that thread primarily on these premise.

It doesn't matter how many SpT locations you have, you are attacking places that are not defended. Simple.

Before you say otherwise, see Bergers and Imidero and Empreth owners. You (Jita) cut into Bergers, for a night ... you havent even utilized that breach, we have cut many times into Kraslovsk and caused more damage when we have bothered than you ever will.

Using your recent Beta and Gamma success in support of the SpT change is really a bad example.

Because this game does not have remote contracts, and travel sucks in the game a huge byproduct of this change will be to make remote mining operations much less efficient and managing market orders quickly in multiple locations extremely difficult. But hey, you guys are just PvPers, and evidenced by your "The followbot nerf hurts us, so nerf everyone equally ...because! (Gunner Logic)", I don't expect you to think of other aspects of this game.


And back on this topic I think Burial is suggesting buffing bots locking range and time to eliminate the use of a mod that pretty much everyone de facto fits .... I don't know if I agree with it, but thats All I see he is suggesting.

Re: Sensor Amplification

Mongolia Jones wrote:
Merkle wrote:

Right about now, someone needs to start running around screaming "power projection, power projection".

True story, back in October when the spark-power projection debate started (and very few people believed in it), I told Balfizar that if we take one station that all the rest would fall pretty readily.

Balf did not really believe me, (besides all he wanted was to get Dom back), but Balf decided to humor me and we decided to run an experiment and see if we could take all of NIA once we took Dom.

What we found (to my surprise) is that after Heydelhorn and Moyar fell, the rest of STC & allied outposts went much quicker than we ever expected.

The spark fueled power projection was so absolute that we decided to hit your gammas (again with astounding success).

This experiment showed that using sparks to power project was not a theory but reality.  Now you may have noticed that recently our side has not been complaining as vigorously about sparks as we are the new "Kings of the Hill".  Even so, I still think 10 sparks per player is bad for the game, but if Zoom wants to take his good ol time, who am I to complain.  The view is pretty nice from up here. big_smile

Sorry Mongolia but...

Merkle wrote:

We are allowing you do control them, there is a big difference.

Re: Sensor Amplification

Rage Rex wrote:

Sorry Mongolia but...

Merkle wrote:

We are allowing you do control them, there is a big difference.

Sorry Rage but, STC would never "allow" us control of any outpost.  Rage you weren't here but STC fought tooth and nail in November to hold the outposts.  There were fights everyday.  The truth is we took control of all outposts despite all attempts by STC.

Anyway, what does Merkle know, he wasn't here in November and most of December.  He's just spinning.

"...we will take undefended gammas and stations."  -Cassius of STC