Re: Gamma Balancing

DEV Zoom wrote:

Sorry I'm not addressing everything here, but there is a practical problem with limiting terminal placement based on range.

You don't know where the other terminals are.

If you would know, the location of the terminals could not be hidden anymore.

If you don't know, you would have to trial-and-error the WHOLE island when you are trying to place a terminal.

Trial and error, maybe for some. And perhaps its a way to test distances to unknown terminals. But is that really a big deal? With new terraforming there should be NO WALLED OFF ISLANDS, so conceivably any light should have free reign to scout the entire island. And its not very realistic (not smart at all) for anyone to go to an island and pop down massive investment without taking 30 minutes to scout the island for other inhabitants.

Re: Gamma Balancing

Ok, I'm just trying to make it clear that the only thing you're going to get from the game is "sorry, you can't deploy that here" and nothing else. And obviously you would want to know that before you terraform the place for it.

203

Re: Gamma Balancing

Any thoughts on just having 'fixed' flat locations preTF'd on each Island?

Re: Gamma Balancing

Arga wrote:

Any thoughts on just having 'fixed' flat locations preTF'd on each Island?

Problems that come to my mind with that:

1. You would still need terraforming to get there. Otherwise we would have to redesign every gamma island because there are some where you can't even go very far from the teleport even.
2. There is no way to predict the size of the networks people would build even with the new building limits.
3. We don't want to abandon terraforming completely if there is a way.

205

Re: Gamma Balancing

DEV Zoom wrote:
Arga wrote:

Any thoughts on just having 'fixed' flat locations preTF'd on each Island?

Problems that come to my mind with that:

1. You would still need terraforming to get there. Otherwise we would have to redesign every gamma island because there are some where you can't even go very far from the teleport even.
2. There is no way to predict the size of the networks people would build even with the new building limits.
3. We don't want to abandon terraforming completely if there is a way.

I was more thinking that they would be away to limit the impact of single tile. Corps could flatten elsewhere, but there would be these 2 or 3 'ideal' spots.

Re: Gamma Balancing

Arga wrote:

I was more thinking that they would be away to limit the impact of single tile. Corps could flatten elsewhere, but there would be these 2 or 3 'ideal' spots.

Oh I see. Well, not sure. I think most of the islands have such areas naturally from the start. Some have less (harder to set foot but probably safer), some have more (easy settlement, but prone to be contested), but that's a good thing in my eyes. Makes the settlement choices more interesting.

Re: Gamma Balancing

mmmmm  diggin this simple idea

Arga wrote:
DEV Zoom wrote:
Arga wrote:

Any thoughts on just having 'fixed' flat locations preTF'd on each Island?

Problems that come to my mind with that:

1. You would still need terraforming to get there. Otherwise we would have to redesign every gamma island because there are some where you can't even go very far from the teleport even.
2. There is no way to predict the size of the networks people would build even with the new building limits.
3. We don't want to abandon terraforming completely if there is a way.

I was more thinking that they would be away to limit the impact of single tile. Corps could flatten elsewhere, but there would be these 2 or 3 'ideal' spots.

208

Re: Gamma Balancing

-1 to pre terraformed spot.

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209 (edited by Burial 2014-01-22 20:12:13)

Re: Gamma Balancing

I don't like the idea either if anyone cares. There's tens of good locations on every single gamma for a base.

Re: Gamma Balancing

Is the nerf bat coming to followbot for certain, or will it be left unchanged? The poll on the relating topic was pretty much 50/50 and closed so no more votes can be cast.

Re: Gamma Balancing

Sieges wrote:

Is the nerf bat coming to followbot for certain, or will it be left unchanged? The poll on the relating topic was pretty much 50/50 and closed so no more votes can be cast.

Again, wrong thread, and no one knows yet.

RIP PERPETUUM

212

Re: Gamma Balancing

Burial wrote:

I don't like the idea either if anyone cares. There's tens of good locations on every single gamma for a base.


I did ALOT of single tile TF on the test server. It's going to be expensive and labor intensive to setup bases, having a couple of 'free' sites doesn't hurt corps that want to expend the effort.

Although, it may make more sense to have these flat areas in more 'open' locations and save the more defensable areas for manual TF.

Re: Gamma Balancing

DEV Zoom wrote:

Sorry I'm not addressing everything here, but there is a practical problem with limiting terminal placement based on range.

You don't know where the other terminals are.

If you would know, the location of the terminals could not be hidden anymore.

If you don't know, you would have to trial-and-error the WHOLE island when you are trying to place a terminal.

I actually don't think this is an issue at all, tbh. Asking the players to have to scout an island before placing a gamma terminal is not asking too much, imo. With the new terraforming changes, choosing and locating a good spot to place a gamma base will be much more important. I don't think its asking too much to have to run a detector over the island if you get an error stating another terminal is too close.

Will actually make scouting new base locations fun, and make you want to get your base down in your spot before someone beats you to it.

Those of you lucky enough to have your lives, take them with you. However, leave the mods you've lost. They belong to me now.

Scarab Kill Count:2

214 (edited by Obi Wan Kenobi 2014-01-23 01:14:29)

Re: Gamma Balancing

Shadowmine wrote:
DEV Zoom wrote:

Sorry I'm not addressing everything here, but there is a practical problem with limiting terminal placement based on range.

You don't know where the other terminals are.

If you would know, the location of the terminals could not be hidden anymore.

If you don't know, you would have to trial-and-error the WHOLE island when you are trying to place a terminal.

I actually don't think this is an issue at all, tbh. Asking the players to have to scout an island before placing a gamma terminal is not asking too much, imo. With the new terraforming changes, choosing and locating a good spot to place a gamma base will be much more important. I don't think its asking too much to have to run a detector over the island if you get an error stating another terminal is too close.

Will actually make scouting new base locations fun, and make you want to get your base down in your spot before someone beats you to it.

I have to agree 110% with shadow here. having a mechanic like this will mean not only is the selection of islands important due to the Terrain Differences but also the locations on an island that you want to live on. It will add real meaning to the decision making processes & value to your base.
Also any one that goes to an island to drop a terminal & does so without scanning & scouting the island properly is a complete *** who wont have a base for very long anyway.

Also ill never stop asking for player made HWYs Zoom until you give them to us smile perfect timing with these gamma changes big_smile

see my sig tongue

True Pros make a Podcast to influence the Devs minds, 
The rest of you guys are Hacks tongue

PS. I got my Highways & stopped playing b4 they came in & have never used them! ...... Irony much ? tongue

Re: Gamma Balancing

Obi Wan Kenobi wrote:
Shadowmine wrote:
DEV Zoom wrote:

Sorry I'm not addressing everything here, but there is a practical problem with limiting terminal placement based on range.

You don't know where the other terminals are.

If you would know, the location of the terminals could not be hidden anymore.

If you don't know, you would have to trial-and-error the WHOLE island when you are trying to place a terminal.

I actually don't think this is an issue at all, tbh. Asking the players to have to scout an island before placing a gamma terminal is not asking too much, imo. With the new terraforming changes, choosing and locating a good spot to place a gamma base will be much more important. I don't think its asking too much to have to run a detector over the island if you get an error stating another terminal is too close.

Will actually make scouting new base locations fun, and make you want to get your base down in your spot before someone beats you to it.

I have to agree 110% with shadow here. having a mechanic like this will mean not only is the selection of islands important due to the Terrain Differences but also the locations on an island that you want to live on. It will add real meaning to the decision making processes & value to your base.
Also any one that goes to an island to drop a terminal & does so without scanning & scouting the island properly is a complete *** who wont have a base for very long anyway.

Also ill never stop asking for player made HWYs Zoom until you give them to us smile perfect timing with these gamma changes big_smile

see my sig tongue

+1

John 3:16 - Timothy 2:23

216

Re: Gamma Balancing

I think  the idea is to do away with the 12 terminal limit on islands and replace it with something more dynamic. what ever way you go about accomplishing this i would say go for it, if range isn't feasible then why not do it by terminal type ... 1 island can have 3 t3 4 t2 or 6 t1 ... dont know ... just spit balling here .. 

maybe make all terminals visible to everyone all the time ... hell why not .. your goal of this change is to make gamma more accessible. the only thing i would change if all the bases could be seen is give the (entire) network a 7day invulnerability period from the time the terminal is dropped. So there is enough time for the owner to build up a reasonable defense grid.   

DEV Zoom wrote:

Sorry I'm not addressing everything here, but there is a practical problem with limiting terminal placement based on range.

You don't know where the other terminals are.

If you would know, the location of the terminals could not be hidden anymore.

If you don't know, you would have to trial-and-error the WHOLE island when you are trying to place a terminal.

Tux ~ Kill the messenger, he was part of it all along.
Euripides ~ Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head.
Bertrand Russell ~ War does not determine who is right - only who is left.

Re: Gamma Balancing

Tux wrote:

I think  the idea is to do away with the 12 terminal limit on islands and replace it with something more dynamic. what ever way you go about accomplishing this i would say go for it, if range isn't feasible then why not do it by terminal type ... 1 island can have 3 t3 4 t2 or 6 t1 ... dont know ... just spit balling here .. 

maybe make all terminals visible to everyone all the time ... hell why not .. your goal of this change is to make gamma more accessible. the only thing i would change if all the bases could be seen is give the (entire) network a 7day invulnerability period from the time the terminal is dropped. So there is enough time for the owner to build up a reasonable defense grid.   

DEV Zoom wrote:

Sorry I'm not addressing everything here, but there is a practical problem with limiting terminal placement based on range.

You don't know where the other terminals are.

If you would know, the location of the terminals could not be hidden anymore.

If you don't know, you would have to trial-and-error the WHOLE island when you are trying to place a terminal.

Actually this may be a good idea. I would say have the control network show all the time. Gamma bases are this games version of SOV like EVE and in EVE when you claim a system every man & his dog can find out about if they so wish.
This function + having it available on the APi has led to some very cool & handy web sites. But i Digress.
Going out to a Gamma island is a statement that your corp makes. That you have the cash to bribe your passage to a Gamma. that your PVPers are the best & will defend you till death or that your a sneaky SOB with a silver tongue tongue

im all for a min distance between bases smile


also HWYs tongue

True Pros make a Podcast to influence the Devs minds, 
The rest of you guys are Hacks tongue

PS. I got my Highways & stopped playing b4 they came in & have never used them! ...... Irony much ? tongue

218 (edited by Hydra Merchant 2014-01-23 19:40:36)

Re: Gamma Balancing

what about multi terminal bases?   if were limited by a resource restriction to base size could we link terminals together to increase base size and overall base security.   I'm saying the island still has a terminal limit and if we want to grow our island into a network shouldn't the network function together?   A siege will still happen, and each individual terminal will still need to be targeted, but linking them together makes a nicer base than just a square terminal box surrounded by two rows of turrits.

perhaps it would be better to limit a corp's # of terminals rather than the islands #....     Sure that would spawn alt corps for the benefit of the mother corp, but that also means several corps could max out their gama base on the same island and thus territorial pvp will ensue.

219

Re: Gamma Balancing

-1 to visible terminals.

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Re: Gamma Balancing

instead of buffing turrets, why not make them prototype only, then add t4 mpc's   We know your planning on making mpc's proto only, and adding a t4 level is all the extra buff you need.  No one has a t4 MPC so your making players spend their stored up research and giving the gama bases the uber status for the corps that can afford it.  The tech tree can be adjusted, or add in a level of advanced research for the tech tree.

221

Re: Gamma Balancing

@Zoom

I have no insight as to how your system is set-up but I do not honestly believe it would be more than a weeks worth of coding to make slight quick changes to beacon terraforming with rules quick.

Assumptions below.

Are the parameters that were coded in to beacon terraforming from y our dev kit not values that can easily be adjusted in the data base? Slope Limit, Height, size ext. Can we not just update these or take the day maybe a week to update the code.

Graphically all you need to do is leave on, terrain showing passable area for ALL bots to see the limits of beacon terraforming.

You do not need to add any restrictions to the plan building system just make the limit coded in and any charges beyond are wasted.

If you seriously do not have the time or man hours then lay out a dev plan and post it up as a project for some of the developer guys here take a shot at it.

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222

Re: Gamma Balancing

If a slope exceeds the limit, naturally, but you are using beacons to change flatten it, the system needs to allow a TF operation on the tile even though it's outside of the limits.

Re: Gamma Balancing

Ronon suggested this, allow terraforming from original island shape in a range of -50m  to + 50m
(and none near teleports)

This would allow some sheer walls no higher at any point than 100 m, would make players have to find suitable places on the landscape to actually build a decent base, would make higher areas terraced type of landscaping and more preferable for defense, and allow vastly different types of bases on each of the 3 races island types.

Kinda like how things work in the real world.

I dont think the beacon terraformers were the main problem, just how we were allowed to use them.

224

Re: Gamma Balancing

Cassius wrote:

Ronon suggested this, allow terraforming from original island shape in a range of -50m  to + 50m
(and none near teleports)

This would allow some sheer walls no higher at any point than 100 m, would make players have to find suitable places on the landscape to actually build a decent base, would make higher areas terraced type of landscaping and more preferable for defense, and allow vastly different types of bases on each of the 3 races island types.

Kinda like how things work in the real world.

I dont think the beacon terraformers were the main problem, just how we were allowed to use them.

This doesn't solve the the issue as it has evolved, which is players shouldn't be using TF as a mainline defense. Hence the slope limited to always allow light/assaults.

Re: Gamma Balancing

Arga wrote:
Cassius wrote:

Ronon suggested this, allow terraforming from original island shape in a range of -50m  to + 50m
(and none near teleports)

This would allow some sheer walls no higher at any point than 100 m, would make players have to find suitable places on the landscape to actually build a decent base, would make higher areas terraced type of landscaping and more preferable for defense, and allow vastly different types of bases on each of the 3 races island types.

Kinda like how things work in the real world.

I dont think the beacon terraformers were the main problem, just how we were allowed to use them.

This doesn't solve the the issue as it has evolved, which is players shouldn't be using TF as a mainline defense. Hence the slope limited to always allow light/assaults.

iPhones suck.

Please tell me where in this game, and in life, where landscape is not used for LOS defense?
The problem is with wide opened terraforming, of course its the de facto defense.

With limits, like the -50 to +50, you are limited to what you can terraform. And you then have a reason to place wall structures on top of a terraced base for additional LOS defense. This SEVERLY limits how radically you can change the landscape, invalidates most of the common teleport walls we have today, and still allows siege cover terraforming. With pretty much using the same mechanics currently in game. A minimal fix with a huge impact on how things go forward.