Re: The GAP...

Seriously significant problem has always been lack of diversity in bots. I don't even see people bothering to ask for more. Most of time seems spent 'balancing' existing set of bots, and irony is that with introduction of new bots whole new set of balancing will likely be forthcoming.

You're depressing me Norrdec

127 (edited by Celebro 2014-01-14 15:58:38)

Re: The GAP...

Norrdec wrote:
Celebro wrote:

Extract from the Perpetuum Manifesto: http://www.perpetuum-online.com/Media:Manifesto

Level playing field


"When it comes to character progression, we employ a very strict level playing field policy. This means that each and every character in the game progresses with their skills at the same rate, no exceptions. This way older characters will enjoy a unique versatility of playstyles as they fully learn certain skills, but in no way means that newer characters won’t be able to catch up to them in areas of their choice. The level playing field concept guarantees that older character means more versatile character."

In a nutshell you can catch up, but in x number of years or months. smile

That works in EVE because you have so many skills that impact different classes of ships (frigate/cruiser/battleship/dread/carrier/titan), and their T2 skill variants (stealth bomber, interceptor, interdictor, heavy interdictor, heavy assault cruiser, strategic cruiser, marauder, blablabla).

In Perp you only have 2+1 skills. Advanced robotics. Basic robotics. + optional racial robotics.

So in order to catch up, any new player/corporation must dedicate 1 account per each combat role (Vaga EWAR, Zen EWAR, Ictus EnWar, Seth, Mesmer, Gropho, Remote-Repair, NEXUS, etc) and then grind Alpha stuff for 4-5 months to get their skills on-par with everything.

Because the moment they step out into PVP, they will fight T4+Mk2 bots piloted by accounts that are absolutely max skilled for those robots.

The problem is nobody will want to pay 20-30-40$ a month to play a dead game to mindlessly grind for 2-3-4-5 months before they have even a long shot at getting an outpost on Beta nevermind a Gamma, without losing it the moment someone gets bored or drunk.

+1 Exactly the point I wanted to make (sarcasm did not work), they are just throwing away too many potential customers even more than Eve in this regard.

RIP PERPETUUM

Re: The GAP...

The whole mk2 thing is bullshit really, most fleets with old school players don't get above 50%

129 (edited by Aye Pod 2014-01-14 17:13:34)

Re: The GAP...

This GAP whine thread is silly at best. I think its BS that a new player should get anything more (EP wise) than I did when I first started. You need to walk before you can run. The ONLY thing that drives people from games is that they arent fun anymore ie LACK OF *** TO DO. Everytime I took a break from this game was because I became tired of doing the same things day after day. We dont need EP boosters for new players to play, we need things for them to do and to work towards. I sub'd eve for years because there was always some bad *** ship I wanted to pilot (Nighthawk, Nightmare, Orca, etc...)  Never once in Perp or Eve did I ever cry for help closing the gap between me and the vets. Frankly I dont want people playing the game that need their hand held the entire way through. We already have Hunter and his QQ fills up the short bus already. I think this game needs more rewards for playing other than massive material stock piles. Vanity items, mk3 bots, t4 and t5, vanguard bots, glider combats, logi bots, THE ABILITY TO CUSTOMIZE MY BOTS PAINT, etc...

130 (edited by Aaron Sool 2014-01-14 18:41:50)

Re: The GAP...

Arga wrote:
Aaron Sool wrote:

What? I don't wanna turn this into any other game. I want Perp to be Perp. But if a system is flawed, like time based progression is in a MMO according to me

Perp is a time based system, your opinion is time based systems are bad, so you really don't like Perp. You like some aspects of it but you are trying to change the base game to be something that you do like.

The MMO genre doesn't mean everyone has to be equal, that is a theme-park MMO critera.

In a Sandbox MMO, it's almost certain that everything will never be equal, even if there were no character progression stats.

Perp should add in some potatos (new content), but it will still be brocolli WITH potatos.

I've said COUNTLESS of times in this thread that I don't care for this EP change myself in the sense that I don't need them as badly as new players would. I said I wanted a TWEAK to the current system, to help new players out from the get go. To give them another reason to stay with the game and feel good bout themselves. To make this game attract more peeps then the 100-200 peeps it's gotten from 3 years of existence. And the suggestion we've made doesn't make every1 equal... The GAP will STILL be there, but it will shrink some from the get go for new players. Giving them another incentive to stay beside the content etc. It's quite simple rly and don't have ANYTHING to do with me liking or not liking Perp. I love this game but at least for me, the population is the biggest issue it has. And I want us to look at every little thing that could bring new players to the game, and also make them stay. Giving new players alittle more EP from the get go is just one of them. I still think content etc is needed as well. But that's a whole other thread. Amen.

131

Re: The GAP...

Then replace "you" with "them", "them" being new players. It's the same thing. New players either like time based or not, if they don't, no amount of tweaking is going to get them to stay. Your not making the arguement any more valid by depersonalizing it.

132 (edited by Celebro 2014-01-14 19:57:54)

Re: The GAP...

Arga wrote:

Then replace "you" with "them", "them" being new players. It's the same thing. New players either like time based or not, if they don't, no amount of tweaking is going to get them to stay. Your not making the arguement any more valid by depersonalizing it.

The problem is not the time based skill system, the problem is for the last 3 years there has not been a steady stream of new players staying long term. Only the die hards with +1.5million EP have stayed mostly.


So now, are we expecting a whole wave of new players to come, carebear in alpha for 5 months and die repeatedly when they attempt to take the Vets. ?

Don't expect players to come just to be cannon fodder.

RIP PERPETUUM

133 (edited by Aaron Sool 2014-01-14 20:14:45)

Re: The GAP...

Arga wrote:

Then replace "you" with "them", "them" being new players. It's the same thing. New players either like time based or not, if they don't, no amount of tweaking is going to get them to stay. Your not making the arguement any more valid by depersonalizing it.

Well that's where I beg to differ. I actually think they might stay. I wouldn't have brought this up if I didn't think they would. Can I say they will for sure? Nope. But I would at least like to try. If it helps, then super. If not. Well, at least we tried...

134 (edited by Aaron Sool 2014-01-14 20:12:59)

Re: The GAP...

Celebro wrote:
Arga wrote:

Then replace "you" with "them", "them" being new players. It's the same thing. New players either like time based or not, if they don't, no amount of tweaking is going to get them to stay. Your not making the arguement any more valid by depersonalizing it.

The problem is not the time based skill system, the problem is for the last 3 years there has not been a steady stream of new players staying long term. Only the die hards with +1.5million EP have stayed mostly.


So now, are we expecting a whole wave of new players to come, carebear in alpha for 5 months and die repeatedly when they attempt to take the Vets. ?

Don't expect players to come just to be cannon fodder.

^ Very much this as well...

135

Re: The GAP...

Celebro wrote:
Arga wrote:

Then replace "you" with "them", "them" being new players. It's the same thing. New players either like time based or not, if they don't, no amount of tweaking is going to get them to stay. Your not making the arguement any more valid by depersonalizing it.

The problem is not the time based skill system, the problem is for the last 3 years there has not been a steady stream of new players staying long term. Only the die hards with +1.5million EP have stayed mostly.


So now, are we expecting a whole wave of new players to come, carebear in alpha for 5 months and die repeatedly when they attempt to take the Vets. ?

Don't expect players to come just to be cannon fodder.

And that's the GRAND misconception, that new players should be able to come in and compete directly against vets.

Why can't the new players come in and join EXISTING corporations, and then it's MIXED battles of new and vets.

This theme-park idea that me, as a single player, can step into Perp and have some kind of HEROIC impact on the game is the disconnect. That's not even a gap issue, because not even Lemon was able to take on the whole server alone.

I don't really blame new players for coming in with this kind of attitude, because games like Dota, WOW, LOL, are all designed to make each player feel like a hero.

Maybe changing how Perp functions will make it less of a niche game, but then it WOULDN'T BE Perpetuum.

There's nothing wrong with a game being what it is, Perp's problem has always been a lack of content. The ONLY thing that's going to save Perp is more content. At some point, with enough players, Perp may become self-suffcient with player generated content. Until then though AC is going to have to kick start Perp with enough 'stuff' to keep players in the game for a couple months until they get involved in the small amount of existing Player content.

Also, they need to make all the game mechanic changes NOW, because everytime they make a change they lose people; the series of changes to mining and kernels caused most of the intial exodus (and the Gamma changes for me).

Re: The GAP...

arga gets a big +1 for that statement.

and thats not a bad thing.
when i joind the game i wanted a long term game. things i can work towards. and i was no child of the first hour. i was a ~3/4 year late. and i did not complain that there were already ppl in their heavys on the field. i was the smallest light on the server. but things change and you can build up. and i enjoy it.

if you want a quick experience with a few quick mouse clicks, and a box that tells you how good you are then i can suggest you look for a few browsergames.

137 (edited by Celebro 2014-01-14 21:27:36)

Re: The GAP...

Zortarg Calltar wrote:

arga gets a big +1 for that statement.

and thats not a bad thing.
when i joind the game i wanted a long term game. things i can work towards. and i was no child of the first hour. i was a ~3/4 year late. and i did not complain that there were already ppl in their heavys on the field. i was the smallest light on the server. but things change and you can build up. and i enjoy it.

if you want a quick experience with a few quick mouse clicks, and a box that tells you how good you are then i can suggest you look for a few browsergames.


9 months late and 3 years late is a huge difference, specially when there is no one inbetween. Being five years late in Eve is not a problem because there are thousands of players at your level to compete with and loads of other players at a slightly higher skill which can be beaten.

RIP PERPETUUM

138 (edited by Zortarg Calltar 2014-01-15 01:53:44)

Re: The GAP...

celebro,

this game needs a few thousand players to work. if we get that then the vets will be that greatly outnumbered that it will not realy matter.

and if we dont get these numbers, well then its the end of everything anyway.

we are not talking about 100 new players at a mix of 30 remaiming vets.

Re: The GAP...

Zortarg Calltar wrote:

celebro,

this game needs a few thousand players to work. if we get that then the vets will be that greatly outnumbered that it will not realy matter.

and if we dont get these numbers, well then its the end of everything anyway.

we are not talking about 100 new players at a mix of 30 remaiming vets.

And what I wonder, can we rly afford NOT to do everything we can that could make more peeps come and stay to the game? Why wait til ""it's the end of everything anyway"? This is the part I don't get. But, sure. If we do get thousands of peeps with current system. Then I'll stfu. But as you said, if we don't get them, then this possible "solution" to one of the games problems, might have left the station and there we might stand, yet again, with 100-200 vets holding hand and looking at the "off-switch" together. I would hate for that day to come because we didn't do ENOUGH when we had the chance. But only time will tell...

140

Re: The GAP...

You want to make the game grow, be on alpha 1s doing stuff make the starter area look busy.  I remember landing into TMA and going "There's a lot of people here."  Or course the was mainly scripted sequers making a loop from TMA ->daoden -> attalica ->TMA known as the Golden Jew Triangle.

Steam achievement Unlocked:  Being a Badass
http://www.perp-kill.net/kill/239407
Dev Zoom: I think its time to confess, Ville is my alt
Dev Zoom: Ville can be sometimes so sane it's scary.

Re: The GAP...

Aaron Sool wrote:

I would hate for that day to come because we didn't do ENOUGH when we had the chance. But only time will tell...

but your so called gap is not one of that things that will matter.

there is only one thing that gets ppl in this game: advertisement
and there is only one thing that lets them stay: content

i think i repeat myself (again)

Re: The GAP...

Zortarg Calltar wrote:

...so called gap is not one of that things that will matter.

there is only one thing that gets ppl in this game: advertisement
and there is only one thing that lets them stay: content

Too true.

And I do hope this next Mission Patch will significantly help in the content arena. I love this game for the PvP, but I believe a sustainable population will require significantly larger percentages of non-pvpers doing non-pvp activities. In my opinion, this game needs not only better mission content, but far more diversification in bot capabilities. And, two classes (basic/advanced) is not enough, there must be far far more to strive toward. I'm hardly the first person to say this.

Giving EP away only quickens the path to boredom.

Re: The GAP...

Zortarg Calltar wrote:
Aaron Sool wrote:

I would hate for that day to come because we didn't do ENOUGH when we had the chance. But only time will tell...

but your so called gap is not one of that things that will matter.

there is only one thing that gets ppl in this game: advertisement
and there is only one thing that lets them stay: content

i think i repeat myself (again)

I do think those things count as well. I've never said the opposite. But I think the GAP is holding peeps off as well. As I have stated before, I have no proof of this, but I know from peeps I've talked to ingame now and before, and also outside when I've been playing other games. That the reason they don't wanna play Perp, is because of the GAP they would have to those that been here from day 1. And that's only a handfull that I've talked to. The dark number is prolly alot higher. So if tweaking the system some to bring them in as well. The chances for the game to succeed raises. And I personally don't see anything wrong with it.

144 (edited by Mongolia Jones 2014-01-15 21:35:35)

Re: The GAP...

Aaron,

Regardless of the amount of GAP (whether it is 5x, 2x, 1.5x), newbies will ALWAYS complain.

Giving new players 50k or 150k bonus EP isn't going to make them b1tch any less.

There are vets that still can't kill other vets for so many reasons other than EP.  It's just that a newbie will blame the EP (regardless of the size of the GAP), because it is convenient to do so.

"...we will take undefended gammas and stations."  -Cassius of STC

145

Re: The GAP...

Mongolia Jones wrote:

Aaron,

Regardless of the amount of GAP (whether it is 5x, 2x, 1.5x), newbies will ALWAYS complain.

Giving new players 50k or 150k bonus EP isn't going to make them b1tch any less.

There are vets that still can't kill other vets for so many reasons other than EP.  It's just that a newbie will blame the EP (regardless of the size of the GAP), because it is convenient to do so.

+1

Mongolia Killed me plenty enough times.

Steam achievement Unlocked:  Being a Badass
http://www.perp-kill.net/kill/239407
Dev Zoom: I think its time to confess, Ville is my alt
Dev Zoom: Ville can be sometimes so sane it's scary.

146

Re: The GAP...

Mongolia Jones wrote:

Aaron,

Regardless of the amount of GAP (whether it is 5x, 2x, 1.5x), newbies will ALWAYS complain.

Giving new players 50k or 150k bonus EP isn't going to make them b1tch any less.

There are vets that still can't kill other vets for so many reasons other than EP.  It's just that a newbie will blame the EP (regardless of the size of the GAP), because it is convenient to do so.

Your using logic, Aaron is making an emotional plea, besides apparently Perp is so f*cked up it has "Nothing to lose" by trying it.

147

Re: The GAP...

GAP

3 week worktime
worst happen: dont work for new player retention

CONTENT

3 month worktime
worst happen: 3 month of coding lost

(I am still argueing I am not sure that can help or not, but why not try it? Any bad about that idea? Even with a smaller Ep/min increase 2 EP/min, 1,5 EP/min. We would need rethink the light,assault / mech relation because I just skipped the assaults, lights and thats it. We would need more skill for mech and more conten for assaults.)

Energy to Earth!

18.01.2014. [12:57:58] <BeastmodeGuNs> after that i remembered all those warning about 1v1 you lol, and i found out why xD

148 (edited by Aaron Sool 2014-01-15 23:27:15)

Re: The GAP...

Arga wrote:
Mongolia Jones wrote:

Aaron,

Regardless of the amount of GAP (whether it is 5x, 2x, 1.5x), newbies will ALWAYS complain.

Giving new players 50k or 150k bonus EP isn't going to make them b1tch any less.

There are vets that still can't kill other vets for so many reasons other than EP.  It's just that a newbie will blame the EP (regardless of the size of the GAP), because it is convenient to do so.

Your using logic, Aaron is making an emotional plea, besides apparently Perp is so f*cked up it has "Nothing to lose" by trying it.

Emotional plea? Is that what I'm doing. Didn't know that. I thought me and others were talking bout ONE way to PERHAPS increase the population of Perp.
And where did I say Perp is "*** up"? I've only said that the population is EXTREMLY low for a game that RLY needs high population for market etc to thrive. If you don't think population is "*** up", then your blind as a bat. What some of us put forward are only a way that we think could help the population grow. But your maybe right, it's only a "emotional plea" from me... fuuu

149

Re: The GAP...

Your taking it too personally. An emotional plea simply means that you're not using logic to form your arguement.

Please feel free to clarify what 'Nothing to lose' means in your own words than.

Re: The GAP...

The solution is in diversifying specialization skills (getting rid of basic/adv robotics and replacing them with class skills like EVE) so that vets keep their EP advantage and versatility but newbies don't have to spend 4-5 months training for bots they don't want to drive in order to drive the one they want.

We've said this before. It takes a while for the simple to catch up to their betters. Meanwhile, Im quite enjoying Inda's talk of x2 EP multipliers, sounds pretty hungarian.

<GargajCNS> we maim to please