301

Re: - Spark Teleport - Power Projection - Now with poll!

I assume such change would include SpT extension complexity changed to 1 and EP got refunded?

Have a productive day, runner!
R.I.P. Chenoa, you'll never be forgotten.
DEV Zoom: Line, sorry, I was away for christmas.
http://perp-kill.net/?m=view&id=252086

Re: - Spark Teleport - Power Projection - Now with poll!

Burial wrote:

How about this:

Beta outposts your corporation owns: 3 points (4 points otherwise)
Gamma terminals your corporation owns: 2 points (3 points otherwise)

From PVP perspective it's not that much different. PVPers will probably want to stay closer to Betas anyway and not keep multiple sparks on Gammas. But from industrial viewpoint, it helps a lot.

@Zoom
I urge you to go to some Gamma and walk from one part of the island to the other. Feel free to use Imidero. Gammas have NO internal teleports whatsoever and nerfing Spark Teles to that extent(3 points) on Gamma is very bad idea.

The other side has said only bad things about getting to an island but what about using the island?
Gammas don't have highways, internal teleports and similar mechanics for moving on the island effectively. Available hauler bots are small and there is constant need for hauling stuff around after every OP. I'm not talking about volume that fits in one Scarab, but literally many Scarab trips back and forth per player. Why do you think one of us has 6 Scarab MK2 accounts?

By the way, do you notice how we don't really give a cr*p about Beta and are just worried about Gamma while Beta is supposedly the problem here?

think that was my main point.

100% agreed

Re: - Spark Teleport - Power Projection - Now with poll!

Considering the amount of time and money it takes to have your own gamma base, I think it makes perfect sense to have a quick way to get back to defend it, and I'd be all for maybe having 1 free (no slot) home gamma spark. I personally think that beta is the main issue here, and that we should really look for solutions that affect beta only. I'm fine with sparking to gamma and alpha but think there should be some restrictions in place for beta.

304 (edited by Merkle 2013-11-17 17:46:48)

Re: - Spark Teleport - Power Projection - Now with poll!

This is foolish at best.  However, if your going to change the direction of the game play completely, then I would suggest MORE, rather then the other way around.

I feel Zoom has a disconnect of what is being reported on the forums to what is actually happening in the game.  As well as how it effects PVP, and motivations to take and hold beta outposts.

Two months ago, beta's were a power house of turning Nic (B1's), now, good luck.  They are next to worthless, with no more value then the PVP they attempt to provide. 

Personally, this would appear to be more of a attempt to nerf the sprawl of Gamma bases in a attempt to keep them in check.  This would be nothing more then slapping a band-aid on a hemorrhaging artery.

If this is what you are actually wanting Zoom, I would much rather you say it up front then to dance around blaming other things.

I also understand you, and your Dev Team, have a idea of how you want us to play the game.  We are here to tell you, players will never do what you wish them to do, we are creative and wish to play as we want, and are more then willing to adjust to how you wish the game to be played; then shatter it.


Edit:  Spark Tele skill will become the new Nav 10, for the Vets we already have 10, this will further widen the gaming Gap.

The Gifter
Top  Killer 2013  - 01: 334 -- 17 -- 317  : Merkle
Top  Killer 2012  - 01: 027 -- 472 -- 445 : Merkle

Scarab Kill Count - 13

305

Re: - Spark Teleport - Power Projection - Now with poll!

Merkle wrote:

This is foolish at best.  However, if your going to change the direction of the game play completely, then I would suggest MORE, rather then the other way around.

I feel Zoom has a disconnect of what is being reported on the forums to what is actually happening in the game.  As well as how it effects PVP, and motivations to take and hold beta outposts.

Two months ago, beta's were a power house of turning Nic (B1's), now, good luck.  They are next to worthless, with no more value then the PVP they attempt to provide. 

Personally, this would appear to be more of a attempt to nerf the sprawl of Gamma bases in a attempt to keep them in check.  This would be nothing more then slapping a band-aid on a hemorrhaging artery.

If this is what you are actually wanting Zoom, I would much rather you say it up front then to dance around blaming other things.

I also understand you, and your Dev Team, have a idea of how you want us to play the game.  We are here to tell you, players will never do what you wish them to do, we are creative and wish to play as we want, and are more then willing to adjust to how you wish the game to be played; then shatter it.


Edit:  Spark Tele skill will become the new Nav 10, for the Vets we already have 10, this will further widen the gaming Gap.

-1

Steam achievement Unlocked:  Being a Badass
http://www.perp-kill.net/kill/239407
Dev Zoom: I think its time to confess, Ville is my alt
Dev Zoom: Ville can be sometimes so sane it's scary.

Re: - Spark Teleport - Power Projection - Now with poll!

Atticus wrote:

Estamel says we have too many Gammas.  We did not get those Gamma's because of SpT. We have them because we took them, and Killed PHM and Chaos and -12- Bases. The solution to us having too many Gammas should be to kill ours, this is supposed to be a game of conflict, remember.

Yes we took what we took after people left the game.  This is what you all tell us and for the most part its true.  Its also the reason why things are the way they are, not SpT. LOW POPULATION!


I dint bother reading the rest of ur wall of text.   

Yes u did get those Gamma base because of SpT  if it wasent for SpT u whuld not have spammed those gammas all over the palce....

U killed ghost towns  u dint take any thing by any force...   

Complaning abouth roaming gangs?   Its the reason u still have ppl to shot at dont forget that!  All u say in ur post is I dont whant to put my self on the field i just whant my enemys to do that and my self to right click spark and undock have instant fight and *** of...

Re: - Spark Teleport - Power Projection - Now with poll!

Merkle wrote:

we are creative and wish to play as we want, and are more then willing to adjust to how you wish the game to be played; then shatter it.


This........... yeah.

Re: - Spark Teleport - Power Projection - Now with poll!

DEV Zoom wrote:

Instead of having a max of 10 spark teleport targets (controlled by the extension), you would have 10 "spark target credits" and targets would occupy a different number of credits based on their location.

this is from the part of ville's post that Dev zoom edited, pay better attention guys smile

Reading this signature fills you with determination.

309 (edited by Atticus 2013-11-17 19:35:51)

Re: - Spark Teleport - Power Projection - Now with poll!

Estamel Tharch0n wrote:
Atticus wrote:

Estamel says we have too many Gammas.  We did not get those Gamma's because of SpT. We have them because we took them, and Killed PHM and Chaos and -12- Bases. The solution to us having too many Gammas should be to kill ours, this is supposed to be a game of conflict, remember.

Yes we took what we took after people left the game.  This is what you all tell us and for the most part its true.  Its also the reason why things are the way they are, not SpT. LOW POPULATION!


I dint bother reading the rest of ur wall of text.   

Yes u did get those Gamma base because of SpT  if it wasent for SpT u whuld not have spammed those gammas all over the palce....

U killed ghost towns  u dint take any thing by any force...   

Complaning abouth roaming gangs?   Its the reason u still have ppl to shot at dont forget that!  All u say in ur post is I dont whant to put my self on the field i just whant my enemys to do that and my self to right click spark and undock have instant fight and *** of...

To clarify some points you clearly missed, and will clearly miss again

I am stating it will affect industry, not PvP.
I said there is nothing wrong with roaming style PvP. But its not the only style.
SpT was available to you and me equally, when we took your gamma and wiped it, by force. it did not allow us to take it, nor did it allow you to defend it. As i have said we took it after you left the game. Since you state we did not take it by force, clearly if you had chosen to play and defend it, we could not have taken it, right?
So wtf did SpT have to do with it then?

Really learn to read, and then learn to comprehend what you are reading. I posted under Brutux a huge nerf to my alliance and you argued with me because you didn't understand. Zortag posts and you argue with him and you disn't understand. You quote what I wrote, say you didn't bother reading all of it, and then complain about things that I did not say and if you had read it and understood it, you would realize it.

*edit: Offensive. - DEV Zoom

Sorry  to make you edit Zoom, but I find stupidity offensive.

310

Re: - Spark Teleport - Power Projection - Now with poll!

Atticus looks like your going to be able to still tactically do industry on gamma.  2-3 sparks on gamma then 1 to 4 on alpha.  I really don't see your argument being valid.

Steam achievement Unlocked:  Being a Badass
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Dev Zoom: I think its time to confess, Ville is my alt
Dev Zoom: Ville can be sometimes so sane it's scary.

Re: - Spark Teleport - Power Projection - Now with poll!

Ville wrote:

Atticus looks like your going to be able to still tactically do industry on gamma.  2-3 sparks on gamma then 1 to 4 on alpha.  I really don't see your argument being valid.

Not if Gamma value is at 3, Ville. If its at 2 maybe, but only if you have the extension at 10. I personally don't have it there yet but will have to now I guess. In the end, I don't think its the cause or contributes to the problem as much as you do, and I do think for sure this solution will affect indy and logistical far greater than it will affect PvP. Just my opinion.

Re: - Spark Teleport - Power Projection - Now with poll!

I do believe that on their own bases for gammas spark-teleports should not expend Points

313 (edited by Shadowmine 2013-11-17 20:05:17)

Re: - Spark Teleport - Power Projection - Now with poll!

What would be wrong with leaving SpT how it is and only allowing sparking to beta outposts or gamma outposts owned by your corporation? This prevents widescale power projection throughout an alliance. Only the owner can spark their guys in. All others would have to walk to attack or defend outposts. This leaves gammas and Betas more vulnerable to attack, and any allied defending forces more vulnerable during transit as well. Done in concert with a 5 minute cooldown seems a good idea to me.

At the very least I think sparking to your own gamma or beta outpost should be discounted. Or maybe doing your points idea AND you cant spark to outposts you don't own?

Changing SpT with the Zoom way, will most likely allow other corps to take some beta outposts. (Which I suggest was the only reason they started this threadnought to begin with.) And this in itself is not an issue really. We took the outposts mostly  because we could, not because we want them. (Although preventing 77th from getting one will still be at the top of my list of things to do. big_smile) But I am concerned with the effect it will have on the current pvp situation itself.



SpT has been the only thing keeping pvp alive in this game, IMO. If it gets nerfed too harshly, pvp will wither and die. How many times will it take you to go roam an island and find no one to pvp before you stop looking? People will turtle in a few beta outposts and the rest of nia will be desolate. This alone will drive 62nd away, as they don't have the numbers to hit us when consolidated. Their best chances are catchin people spread out across the world.

And lets not forget in this whole deal. This is inherently a nerf to anyone who holds a beta or gamma outpost. I suggest that 77th loves this idea. As they can live on alpha 2 islands and never have to get SpT above 6. But hey, we want to promote people living on the always dangerous alpha islands anyway, right?

To me, if you are going to make this change. Make it right before steam launch when it will take effect for the new incoming players, but not cripple and kill all our current chances for pvp. I am all for balancing SpT as we all are, this just seems a drastic first step.

Edit: And I suggest you give MONTHS of notice before you implement any SpT change!


Edit: (If the points thing does go ahead, can we get reimbursed for all SpT skill and just be given 10. As this will become the new navigation 10)

Those of you lucky enough to have your lives, take them with you. However, leave the mods you've lost. They belong to me now.

Scarab Kill Count:2

Re: - Spark Teleport - Power Projection - Now with poll!

Atticus wrote:
Estamel Tharch0n wrote:
Atticus wrote:

Estamel says we have too many Gammas.  We did not get those Gamma's because of SpT. We have them because we took them, and Killed PHM and Chaos and -12- Bases. The solution to us having too many Gammas should be to kill ours, this is supposed to be a game of conflict, remember.

Yes we took what we took after people left the game.  This is what you all tell us and for the most part its true.  Its also the reason why things are the way they are, not SpT. LOW POPULATION!


I dint bother reading the rest of ur wall of text.   

Yes u did get those Gamma base because of SpT  if it wasent for SpT u whuld not have spammed those gammas all over the palce....

U killed ghost towns  u dint take any thing by any force...   

Complaning abouth roaming gangs?   Its the reason u still have ppl to shot at dont forget that!  All u say in ur post is I dont whant to put my self on the field i just whant my enemys to do that and my self to right click spark and undock have instant fight and *** of...

To clarify some points you clearly missed, and will clearly miss again

I am stating it will affect industry, not PvP.
I said there is nothing wrong with roaming style PvP. But its not the only style.
SpT was available to you and me equally, when we took your gamma and wiped it, by force. it did not allow us to take it, nor did it allow you to defend it. As i have said we took it after you left the game. Since you state we did not take it by force, clearly if you had chosen to play and defend it, we could not have taken it, right?
So wtf did SpT have to do with it then?

Really learn to read, and then learn to comprehend what you are reading. I posted under Brutux a huge nerf to my alliance and you argued with me because you didn't understand. Zortag posts and you argue with him and you disn't understand. You quote what I wrote, say you didn't bother reading all of it, and then complain about things that I did not say and if you had read it and understood it, you would realize it.

*edit: Offensive. - DEV Zoom

Sorry  to make you edit Zoom, but I find stupidity offensive.


I dont think u see the REAL problem this current SpT made it king og the hill game play were the suposed "winner" owns all....
If we quit or not u wuld eventualy whant to take over our outpost witch is not the real problem here.

wuld u love this game mechanic if u satt on alpha and we had superior numbers and all the beta/Gammas?

industry beeing hit how?    by not beeing instantly evry were?

Re: - Spark Teleport - Power Projection - Now with poll!

I know we wouldn't petition the DEV's to change a game mechanic because we are outnumbered.

Those of you lucky enough to have your lives, take them with you. However, leave the mods you've lost. They belong to me now.

Scarab Kill Count:2

316 (edited by Burial 2013-11-17 20:15:24)

Re: - Spark Teleport - Power Projection - Now with poll!

Estamel Tharch0n wrote:

I dont think u see the REAL problem this current SpT made it king og the hill game play were the suposed "winner" owns all....
If we quit or not u wuld eventualy whant to take over our outpost witch is not the real problem here.

wuld u love this game mechanic if u satt on alpha and we had superior numbers and all the beta/Gammas?

industry beeing hit how?    by not beeing instantly evry were?

You do realise that we would always have the power to take any outpost from you, given we have both numerical and industrial advantage?

Is Sparking supposed to make up for the time you spent playing other games and lost your Gamma base?

Re: - Spark Teleport - Power Projection - Now with poll!

Burial wrote:
Estamel Tharch0n wrote:

I dont think u see the REAL problem this current SpT made it king og the hill game play were the suposed "winner" owns all....
If we quit or not u wuld eventualy whant to take over our outpost witch is not the real problem here.

wuld u love this game mechanic if u satt on alpha and we had superior numbers and all the beta/Gammas?

industry beeing hit how?    by not beeing instantly evry were?

You do realise that we would always have the power to take any outpost from you, given we have both numerical and industrial advantage?

It is king of the hill, but I have no idea how it can be changed so it isn't.


Yes but that isnt the problem is it?  we alredy exspect u to keep us from having one BUT atleast its going to take u much much morre effort to do so.  Insted of having pp suddenly apper all over the small world.

What happens when some one stronger than you again takes all? is it relly that much funn playing this 2 sided war?

Re: - Spark Teleport - Power Projection - Now with poll!

There aren't enough active corps in game to even live in all 15 betas. At least we are active enough for you to get fights. That will not be the case soon.

Those of you lucky enough to have your lives, take them with you. However, leave the mods you've lost. They belong to me now.

Scarab Kill Count:2

Re: - Spark Teleport - Power Projection - Now with poll!

Estamel Tharch0n wrote:

I dont think u see the REAL problem this current SpT made it king og the hill game play were the suposed "winner" owns all...

wuld u love this game mechanic if u satt on alpha and we had superior numbers and all the beta/Gammas?

industry beeing hit how?    by not beeing instantly evry were?

It sucks replying on an iPhone but here goes:

We are king of the hill because most of the opposition quit. Changing SpT
Wont change it. If your players return, that is what will change us being king if the hill. Nothing else.

I have ENDLESSLY repeated it has nothing to do with my current position. I have been in the other position, playing from Alpha when I got kicked out or was unable to attack a Beta power. I certainly would not advocate to change iSpT simply because its a dumb change. I care about this game, not my
Precious little things I have in it. If the game dies I have nothing.

Industry becomes more logistically difficult with less available sparks. I can project
Power across 6 Gamma islands with just 3 sparks, I can barely use one Gamma for industrial purposes with 3 sparks. That is how it nerfs industry.

Re: - Spark Teleport - Power Projection - Now with poll!

We would adapt and make things happen, we would make a goal and complete it. 

Sadly others would rather "threaten" quitting or leaving, rather then attempting something big that requires a group to work together well. 

This is part of the disconnect, sure we can spark their, but our bots do not just magically appear there to fight for us.

The Gifter
Top  Killer 2013  - 01: 334 -- 17 -- 317  : Merkle
Top  Killer 2012  - 01: 027 -- 472 -- 445 : Merkle

Scarab Kill Count - 13

321

Re: - Spark Teleport - Power Projection - Now with poll!

Let's just make bets what will be the next thing they will ask to change "becuz its unfair" big_smile

Have a productive day, runner!
R.I.P. Chenoa, you'll never be forgotten.
DEV Zoom: Line, sorry, I was away for christmas.
http://perp-kill.net/?m=view&id=252086

Re: - Spark Teleport - Power Projection - Now with poll!

Atticus wrote:

Have you lived on Gamma? For defending Gamma all you need is one spark. To live on and fully utilize a Gamma island you need 2-3 sparks. So this suggestion punishes industrials, while it makes no difference to PvP type, they can still spark to where is needed.

Which is the opposite of what this change is intended to do.

The loudest critics of SpT are those who favour the roaming style of PvP, and those who are not currently holding Gammas and Beta outposts. Ville, Balf, Gunner, Mongolia. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the roam, I learned what little pvp skills I have with Mongolia, Gunner, and Balf and its a great and fun playstyle, it should be in the game. But it shouldn't be the only playstyle. And it doesn't require any SpT, you are simply roaming. this hue and cry against SpT is primarily to make roaming easier. other than a few minor tweeks at best SpT was fine. 5 minute cooldown and a 250 k nic fee would virtually solve any of the arguments the roaming side said that it was OP ...a roam could come in, hit a target, and get out before multiple SpT were utilized to respond ... a fair fight ... and the fee would allow at least a pause at non-stop teleporting. Nothing else was needed.

I played this game when there was no SpT, no Gamma, and travel was a ***. It was the biggest reason and complaint that I consistently heard from new players. SpT was in and made a huge difference to that end. Other things were introduced that have affected the gameplay far more adversly than SpT, walls, Gamma. orange and weaker NPC spawns ... yet SpT seems to be pointed at in this forum campaign as the "reason" PvP died, lol.

Estamel says we have too many Gammas.  We did not get those Gamma's because of SpT. We have them because we took them, and Killed PHM and Chaos and -12- Bases. The solution to us having too many Gammas should be to kill ours, this is supposed to be a game of conflict, remember.

Yes we took what we took after people left the game.  This is what you all tell us and for the most part its true.  Its also the reason why things are the way they are, not SpT. LOW POPULATION!

Almost without exception, the voices against SpT are those that need it least or those that have left the game and have returned to the game periodically or part time, while they are playing elsewhere. Probably waiting and hoping like all of us this game takes off and grows because at its core it should be a great game. But those who have asked to keep SpT close to what it is now are those who have built and maintain bases and gamma and spend far more time in game playing and utilizing the game, currently. At some point in the future the casual player may return, once again own and build assets (because its really not that hard) and then they will realize what a crippling change this proposed SpT modification really is to the game play and to newer players. This is a PvP game but it is also a very complex game of growth and building  and empires, the SpT change affects everything but PvP the greatest.

All that was needed was a short cooldown, 5 minutes at the most, and a higher nic charge, I would guess 250k,  Not too high as to kill any noob chance of using it, and not too low as to not make anyone think twice (yes I know there are ultra rich players)

Its a terrible change and terrible proposal that will adversely affect the future of this game.  It will not affect the future of the political lanscape, our bases will ONLY change when someone comes and takes them.

There's a point in here somewhere. Find it. Cheers.


Dev Zoom -  hopefully my final comment on this.     Atticus and Merkle made two very thoughtful points in the last two pages of posts.   Look at the voices on this forum and weigh their playing activities, their playing time, and even motive.   (Motive is hard, but do what you like with it.)   Temper a reactionary change based on what you perceive to be a forum groundswell, when in reality, it's a small sample of players with a very limited in-game activity set.   PVP is nice, but in reality, it's a small part of this game, and spark teleport affects ALL of the aspects of the game, not just pvp. 

If you're going to make a controversial change - I advise that you start with "easy"  or something like it, and reserve the right to tweak it harder later.   The adage of "boiling the frogs slowly" should be heeded here.

Re: - Spark Teleport - Power Projection - Now with poll!

Line wrote:

Let's just make bets what will be the next thing they will ask to change "becuz its unfair" big_smile

Server wipe, obvious.

Re: - Spark Teleport - Power Projection - Now with poll!

Atticus wrote:
Estamel Tharch0n wrote:

I dont think u see the REAL problem this current SpT made it king og the hill game play were the suposed "winner" owns all...

wuld u love this game mechanic if u satt on alpha and we had superior numbers and all the beta/Gammas?

industry beeing hit how?    by not beeing instantly evry were?

It sucks replying on an iPhone but here goes:

We are king of the hill because most of the opposition quit. Changing SpT
Wont change it. If your players return, that is what will change us being king if the hill. Nothing else.

I have ENDLESSLY repeated it has nothing to do with my current position. I have been in the other position, playing from Alpha when I got kicked out or was unable to attack a Beta power. I certainly would not advocate to change iSpT simply because its a dumb change. I care about this game, not my
Precious little things I have in it. If the game dies I have nothing.

Industry becomes more logistically difficult with less available sparks. I can project
Power across 6 Gamma islands with just 3 sparks, I can barely use one Gamma for industrial purposes with 3 sparks. That is how it nerfs industry.


U still dont get it...   the point is to remove I CAN BE EVRY WERE JUST BECAUSE I CAN.
If a opposition is larger and stronger they will take all witch i have said numorus times its bad bad game paly this change will change this. 

It does not change that if  YOU relly whant to keep us away from beta u can....  and this right there might still be what we all will fight over??

You are not suposed to be able to control all of beta and gamma.

And when it comes to industry take all those Strategicaly placed gamma bases that was made whit sparks in mind and move them closer to each other? maybe a beta 2 and the 3 closes gammas to it?

We simply whant this game to become King of the hillsssss  (as in morre than 1 hill)
Whit morre separated conflicts and fights insted off ur suposed 1 RULER 1 Owner 1 Winner

Re: - Spark Teleport - Power Projection - Now with poll!

Merkle wrote:

We would adapt and make things happen, we would make a goal and complete it. 

Sadly others would rather "threaten" quitting or leaving, rather then attempting something big that requires a group to work together well. 

This is part of the disconnect, sure we can spark their, but our bots do not just magically appear there to fight for us.


Moving bots and their fittings that happens once a month MAYBE  isnt relly a hughe logistics is it?