1 (edited by DEV Zoom 2013-11-16 22:32:55)

Topic: - Spark Teleport - Power Projection - Now with poll!

Sorry Ville, I'm hijacking your post because I don't want to create a 3rd topic for the same thing.

So the poll is about a change to the spark teleport system. Instead of having a max of 10 spark teleport targets (controlled by the extension), you would have 10 "spark target slots" and targets would occupy a different number of slots based on their location. The numbers in the poll questions are these.

Example with the even-out option (2):

Your spark teleport extension is at level 9. That means you can have the following spark teleport targets:
3 beta outposts
OR
2 Alpha1s, 1 Alpha2, and 2 beta outposts
OR
3 gamma terminals
OR
3 Alpha1s, 1 beta terminal, and 1 gamma terminal

etc.

-DEV Zoom

Poll is after the post
vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

Original post follows:
----------------
Ok so we have a wonderful 43 Page Threadnought and still growing that I am sure the people pulling the strings have almost completely forgot.  So let me remind you of some issues with Spark Teleports, Lock Out Mechanics and Beta only Epi.

-  We clearly know Spark Teleport is broken.  A better, cheap and effective solution has been offered but the fat and lazy have grown hands from *** and caused diarrhea  to be spewed to no end.

-  Lock Out Mechanics, restrict access to parts of the game for many players.  Especially PVE players seeking mission running or mining(To a degree there is ways around it). 

- Beta Only Epi.  There are only 6 islands.  On these 6 Islands 3 have a free pass station.  There are 10 sparks available.  3 at the Beta Terminals 1 for Alpha, and 6 for other things like: (3 for Gamma) 3 to strategically place at staging outposts.


So let me tell you why it's a bad idea to keep spark teleportation as is.  Steam arrives, we assume a population increase, new players missioning with their buddys and such start up a corp.  While playing they want to make easy cash, they attempt to mine epi.  They get out there set up, pop a can down and start mining.  Unaware that someone making their hourly rounds through all 6 island with a L10 T4 Detector light bot sees them a mile away. 

*Intel Channel* :  Easy Ghank XYZ, noob corp it appears.

7 minutes later, they are steam rolled.

Now two things are going to happen here:  1.  They get pissed off and seek vendetta against the ghankers.  Or 2. Diplomacy is reached and they agree to become an alliance PET.

So within Logically thinking terms which do you think will happen a small 4~6 guy corp thinking on taking on a multiple timezone alliance, or a corp paying tribute to exist?

Traditional wisdom  points to players paying tribute.

Is this going to happen in all cases?  Clearly no.  But its something to chew on.  And with it creates a snowballing effect that will keep a two sided war forever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever....  What Sparking allows is massive moment of troops across the map in less than 10 seconds. 

If this game picks up people I estimate Epi will probably go to 1000 nic per piece keeping alpha producers from competing in the high in market.

With Lock out mechanics in play their is no "salvaging" the op.  You'll have to log on the hauler and off the hauler if you do not have access to stations and if your hauler gets caught its good bye op.

Why don't they fight them for the OP!  Excellent Idea but umm...  There is X+100 or them and only 6 of us...  Let's just offer them tribute to mine!

This will also adversely effect pvp.  Much higher module costs for anyone not in a well stocked corp.  There will be a T4 and EP advantage versus  T2 and low EP that will also come into effect versus newer players.

If you factor together Spark Teleport + Lock Out Mechanics + Beta Only Epi your equation equals a crippled industry. 

Now any veteran reading this post can think of the safe havens "Detectors" "Gate Scouts" and fits for miners.  If you leave Beta only Epi+Lock Out Mechanics and Spark Teleport through your Launch of Steam its going to cause backlash in a negative way.  Being able to hot drop into a station and go from across the map is not feasible for populations over 100.

You want active sustainable player base intermeshed throughout Beta and Gamma?  Having 500 people able to spark from one side of the world to the other and be at your doorstep in under 10 minutes doesn't promote that.  It promotes a two sided war.  Always.

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2 (edited by Burial 2013-11-12 15:29:18)

Re: - Spark Teleport - Power Projection - Now with poll!

I agree with you on a lot of the points and there have been a couple of OK ideas to nerf/fix them.

Probably the easiest solution is to buff teleport beacons so they are smaller(1U perhaps), add more internal connections throughout the Alpha and just flat out remove Spark Teleports. Why try to balance something that is extremely hard to balance.

Standard beacouns could be 1U, emergency 3U, armored 5U and interzones stay as is.

// Now some might ask whether it's really that much better to have the Spark Teleports flat out removed than 1h cooldown. Sure, if the devs are going to force us with traveling the old way, they should make sure we don't have to drag a Sequer with beacons with us most of the time.

Re: - Spark Teleport - Power Projection - Now with poll!

@Ville

Do you always let a robber to hide in your wife's room until you're back home?

Have a productive day, runner!
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Re: - Spark Teleport - Power Projection - Now with poll!

Burial wrote:

I agree with you on a lot of the points and there have been a couple of OK ideas to nerf/fix them.

Probably the easiest solution is to buff teleport beacons so they are smaller(1U perhaps), add more internal connections throughout the Alpha and just flat out remove Spark Teleports. Why try to balance something that is extremely hard to balance.

Standard beacouns could be 1U, emergency 3U, armored 5U and interzones stay as is.

// Now some might ask whether it's really that much better to have the Spark Teleports flat out removed than 1h cooldown. Sure, if the devs are going to force us with traveling the old way, they should make sure we don't have to drag a Sequer with beacons with us most of the time.


I like this altho i wuldnt mind having sparks in the game but my opinion is 24h like eve or even 18h reusage


I was thinking some thing similar to beacons but think armored needs to be higher were a Assault cant carry it or some thing like that

And tbh a teleport scrambler is much needed whit this change to!   there must be a hard counter for evry thing smile
Even the broken signal detectors!  and no detector > masker! sad((

Re: - Spark Teleport - Power Projection - Now with poll!

What Ville said is spot on.
Burial said some good stuff as well.... Reroute the internal and externals of Alpha 1 & 2 bring back the "golden Triangle" Tp set up and give us a 24 hour cool down on spark TPs and refund the EP on them. Allow for remote Sales and Purchases through EP for long range market manipulation.

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Re: - Spark Teleport - Power Projection - Now with poll!

You're assuming that the 4 man corp that decided to try their hand at mining on beta didn't just decide to say screw it and quit the game.

Any new population that comes in is at an extreme disadvantage, as a lot of the existing vets have over a million EP. Fixing spark teleports and whatever else isn't going to change that. The very best solution is a full wipe and re-launch. I'm sorry for you handful of vets that'll cry oceans of tears over that, but I'd gladly wade thru them for a REAL chance at keeping 30-40% of the people we hope will join with the steam launch.

Epriton on beta is a good thing. It's meant to be rare and valuable. It's neither when you can sit in a walled off compound on gamma and mine it till the cows come home.

Detectors should be removed from the game or nerfed a lot. Why is it a good idea to be able to see stuff from 4000m? Stealth masked assaults should be added. I'm talking mechs and lights will only pick them up @ 200m. That will make the target painter role and module a needed and valuable asset for pvp.

A beta only undock timer after spark teleport would solve many of the problems that people associate it with being overpowered, while also maintaining the guys that're defending its reason to stay the same, by allowing them to spark to Gamma/Alpha with no cooldown or undock timer.


tl;dr - Best options - full server reset
         Next best - beta only undock timers upon spark teleport, nerf detectors, add stealth assaults.

Re: - Spark Teleport - Power Projection - Now with poll!

Line wrote:

@Ville

Do you always let a robber to hide in your wife's room until you're back home?

First of all, this is a serious discussion.  There's another thread filled with drama.  You can seek shelter there while the adults make conversation.  Second of all please keep it clear and concise.

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Re: - Spark Teleport - Power Projection - Now with poll!

Lobo wrote:

What Ville said is spot on.
Burial said some good stuff as well.... Reroute the internal and externals of Alpha 1 & 2 bring back the "golden Triangle" Tp set up and give us a 24 hour cool down on spark TPs and refund the EP on them. Allow for remote Sales and Purchases through EP for long range market manipulation.

24h spark teleports are pointless. Could just be removed and be done with them. Benefit is that then all the movement becomes observable and predictable which is good for pvp.

Without going over teleport beacons, sparking should stay as is.

Re: - Spark Teleport - Power Projection - Now with poll!

+1 for full spark removal.

Station holders still have a blood spark advantage.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

10 (edited by Hunter 2013-11-12 17:54:46)

Re: - Spark Teleport - Power Projection - Now with poll!

again and again i see the attempts to shift the balance. this is ridiculous. So you going repeat again and again, depicting the visibility of really important discussion, troll everyone who disagree with you and so on?..

Facts:
1) There are good example of new corp who not cares about spark teleport - RAD. They always come from telesis and shoot stuff.
2) DeV's said GTFO stupid noobs to alpha and shoot t1 stuff. Nothing to do on high content for newbies. Anyway veterans are pushed to beta now and noobs never survive here.

WHAT ACTUALLY VILLE WANTS: He wanna provoke somebody under beta-terminal, login and undock 2-3 ppl, shoot him and safely dock in. At current time  PvP too expencive for him because of:
1) killing any bot requires deploy armored teleport beacon, and anyway it remains too dangerous.
2) Often something doing wrong and they lose bots (sad)

How this change will affect the game in real?
In one hand there will be "good" effect that small corps (maybe) will take some betas. (lol, of course they dont smile ).
In the other hand the game became to pay to win type. Richest people who paid lot of accounts will be ready perform PvP everywhere. (TBH: it's already pay to win type game. Because of you are really powerful with support alts on your tail)

What about this "new" topic? - Well... Our opponents have a problems: Epi removed from gammas. Chaos destroyed, their Alliance disbanded. They didn't care about spark teleport until been beaten. They didn't care about anything. Now they cant do anything serious and ask for changes to have more chases.

...So this is an endless whining. It will go on all the time. I dunno maybe some time Ville and others will grow up. But i'm pretty sure it happens after closing perpetuum online project.

The theory of mutual interests
Why the crybabies wins?
Где Ханя - там победа (с)
DEV Zoom: No need to speculate...

Re: - Spark Teleport - Power Projection - Now with poll!

Idea!  How about instead of personal sparks, how about corporate sparks?  The CEO can set to upto 10 to terminal they own + alphas.  That away beta terminals really become neutral and since only one corp can own a station it prevents mass troop movement alliance wide out of one terminal!

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Re: - Spark Teleport - Power Projection - Now with poll!

Ville wrote:

Idea!  How about instead of personal sparks, how about corporate sparks?  The CEO can set to upto 10 to terminal they own + alphas.  That away beta terminals really become neutral and since only one corp can own a station it prevents mass troop movement alliance wide out of one terminal!

it gives nothing.

The theory of mutual interests
Why the crybabies wins?
Где Ханя - там победа (с)
DEV Zoom: No need to speculate...

Re: - Spark Teleport - Power Projection - Now with poll!

Hunter please provide information why the mass movement instantly is good.  Or why it is always good to have two sides or how RADs not allowed to take SAPs under a certain percentage unless they want their Gamma base rolled?

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Re: - Spark Teleport - Power Projection - Now with poll!

I bet u the DEVs aint even reading this stuff any morre hmm

15 (edited by Hunter 2013-11-12 18:17:57)

Re: - Spark Teleport - Power Projection - Now with poll!

Ville wrote:

Hunter please provide information why the mass movement instantly is good.

Firstly it's possible only for outposts, where you have the sparks.
Second: There a lot of people (include me) who looking for PvP. And we really wanna enjoy it. We don want just read information that somewhere killed somebody. The people wanna action.
Third: Why don't you ask about "win" button? Because of you looking for ways to win against a stronger side. Yes currently our alliance are stronger. When you been stronger - you trolled us, said that you deserved your victories. (and even then your allies asked DeVs about idiotic nerf of distress beacons to make NPC's not agressive - to be more comfortable kill us. This is f#%ng DISTRESS BEACONS. WHY THE F$#CK NPCs should not be aggresive?)

The theory of mutual interests
Why the crybabies wins?
Где Ханя - там победа (с)
DEV Zoom: No need to speculate...

16 (edited by MaSTeR GuNz 2013-11-12 18:21:20)

Re: - Spark Teleport - Power Projection - Now with poll!

Hunter wrote:
Ville wrote:

Hunter please provide information why the mass movement instantly is good.

Firstly it's possible only for outposts, where you have the sparks.
Second: There a lot of people (include me) who looking for PvP. And we really wanna enjoy it. We don want just read information that somewhere killed somebody. The people wanna action.
Third: Why don't you ask about "win" button? Because of you looking for ways to win against a stronger side. Yes currently our alliance are stronger. When you been stronger - you trolled us, said that you deserved you victories. (and even then your allies asked DeVs about idiotic nerf of distress beacons to make NPC's not agressive - to be more comfortable kill us)

Ville is asking for win button? I think your just afraid of losing your win button is what it is. Also... would you really call last night's failed hotdrop on tonnik fun when you undocked 10 on one guy? fuuu

and TBH, I doubt that last part, there are some that seem like the kind of people who would use aggressive distress beacons to kill you, im sure of it cool

Re: - Spark Teleport - Power Projection - Now with poll!

Hunter i know alot of ppl who has left this game because of spark teleports.

Some of us came back because we hoppe steam will relly bring a new Era to perpetuum.

If game stays as broken as it is now tru steam it will die out just as it has before.  For this to not happen the devs needs to go look at balance on this game and think abouth good game play and not what the players whant.

Some times i feel as the DEVs made a game similar to eve whit out any vision on how they whant their game to be like.    Even spark teleport is a horrible rip off from EVEs Jump clone mechanics.

Right now we need a bunch of missions on all lvls like 15 on each.  And aloooot of balancing!  content is fine for now time for balance changes!

Re: - Spark Teleport - Power Projection - Now with poll!

I also think beeing able to lock players out of stations that contain missions is a bad mechanic.
I dare say make all beta 1 NPC owned  and beta 2 player owned hek maybe revert 1 of the gammas in to a beta
2 iland?

Re: - Spark Teleport - Power Projection - Now with poll!

Hunter wrote:
Ville wrote:

Hunter please provide information why the mass movement instantly is good.

Firstly it's possible only for outposts, where you have the sparks.
Second: There a lot of people (include me) who looking for PvP. And we really wanna enjoy it. We don want just read information that somewhere killed somebody. The people wanna action.
Third: Why don't you ask about "win" button? Because of you looking for ways to win against a stronger side. Yes currently our alliance are stronger. When you been stronger - you trolled us, said that you deserved your victories. (and even then your allies asked DeVs about idiotic nerf of distress beacons to make NPC's not agressive - to be more comfortable kill us. This is f#%ng DISTRESS BEACONS. WHY THE F$#CK NPCs should not be aggresive?)



Hunter it does not mean u have the right to easy kill because u enjoy it.  if u whant pvp be active on beta and HUNT your pray not lazy whit a detector and sparks.   The prey (in your eye`s)  also have rights to enjoy the game. witch is were its failing

Re: - Spark Teleport - Power Projection - Now with poll!

Estamel Tharch0n wrote:

Hunter i know alot of ppl who has left this game because of spark teleports.

Some of us came back because we hoppe steam will relly bring a new Era to perpetuum.

If game stays as broken as it is now tru steam it will die out just as it has before.  For this to not happen the devs needs to go look at balance on this game and think abouth good game play and not what the players whant.

Some times i feel as the DEVs made a game similar to eve whit out any vision on how they whant their game to be like.    Even spark teleport is a horrible rip off from EVEs Jump clone mechanics.

Right now we need a bunch of missions on all lvls like 15 on each.  And aloooot of balancing!  content is fine for now time for balance changes!

Personally you wanna Beta island (domhalarn) and win the battles. Be honest with everyone and yourself. You missed the times when you came to novastrov from domhalarn (when the enemy alliance sleep), shoot lonely-ones and ran back happy like a kids...
World has been changed. DeV's spent a lot of time for this. Their time too expencive to roll it back. neutral

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Why the crybabies wins?
Где Ханя - там победа (с)
DEV Zoom: No need to speculate...

Re: - Spark Teleport - Power Projection - Now with poll!

Estamel Tharch0n wrote:

I also think beeing able to lock players out of stations that contain missions is a bad mechanic.
I dare say make all beta 1 NPC owned  and beta 2 player owned hek maybe revert 1 of the gammas in to a beta
2 iland?

Thinking that you are beta corp and be the beta corp is a two different things. The community pushed to betas. This is high-end PvP content. It should be able for alliances only.

The theory of mutual interests
Why the crybabies wins?
Где Ханя - там победа (с)
DEV Zoom: No need to speculate...

Re: - Spark Teleport - Power Projection - Now with poll!

Estamel Tharch0n wrote:

Hunter it does not mean u have the right to easy kill because u enjoy it.  if u whant pvp be active on beta and HUNT your pray not lazy whit a detector and sparks.   The prey (in your eye`s)  also have rights to enjoy the game. witch is were its failing

Easy? It never was easy for me. More than: many times you've got me alone (vs 5+ ppl).

The theory of mutual interests
Why the crybabies wins?
Где Ханя - там победа (с)
DEV Zoom: No need to speculate...

Re: - Spark Teleport - Power Projection - Now with poll!

It's not about who's stronger or who's not, it's about 10, 15, 20, however many people being able to be completely spread out around the world, and INSTANTLY be able to form in one place and undock. We've used it to get kills. You've used it to get kills. It's overpowered.

Think about it from a newer corps perspective, you roll out with your gang of assaults and lights for a sap. Intel says there's 1 guy sitting under the station with a detector. He sees you, knows there's 5 assaults with a couple light ewar support. He says in alliance chat - we have x coming in with y. You spark over 10 guys, undock in heavy mechs, *** face and slap each other on the back about how awesome you are.



And that's what you consider fun pvp. There's no preparation, there's no logistics besides what one person can accomplish with one trip in a scarab, there's no power projection or even a need to form up to protect what you have. 1 person to spot, the rest of the gang can host a circle jerk until the call to spark comes.


If anything it sounds to me like you're the one that has something to lose, and so a reason to fear the change. We've used it just as much as you have, it's what let us get these kills http://www.perp-kill.net/?m=related&id=254972 the difference is, we know it's overpowered as we use it.

24 (edited by Burial 2013-11-12 18:45:23)

Re: - Spark Teleport - Power Projection - Now with poll!

I agree with Hunter that the most likely reason behind these threads is that they want to have an effect against us.

But regardless, should big powerblock be able to hold down Beta outposts they have no use of?

Now with the Epriton move, I think best for the game would be to have as many people on Betas as possible for PVP and industry. Get the wheel moving.

Re: - Spark Teleport - Power Projection - Now with poll!

Hunter wrote:
Estamel Tharch0n wrote:

Hunter it does not mean u have the right to easy kill because u enjoy it.  if u whant pvp be active on beta and HUNT your pray not lazy whit a detector and sparks.   The prey (in your eye`s)  also have rights to enjoy the game. witch is were its failing

Easy? It never was easy for me. More than: many times you've got me alone (vs 5+ ppl).

your not the only one, unless of course you selective memory caused you to forget all those times between july and September where you and/or your "friends" repeatedly caught me and my friends 3 - 1 odds with spark teleporting