Re: Gamma Suggestion. The Problem.
2. Unlimited resources.
These are a good thing. The ease with which they can be acquired is what is imbalanced.
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2. Unlimited resources.
These are a good thing. The ease with which they can be acquired is what is imbalanced.
Resources have always been unlimited in Perpetuum. It is purely a factor of the amount of time you put into it. If I want a billion titan, I can go mine it. And I will go mine it. Be it on gamma or alpha. There isn't any way around it. Unlimited resources is not the problem.
Ville wrote:2. Unlimited resources.
These are a good thing. The ease with which they can be acquired is what is imbalanced.
What it creates is the ability for a million different corps living on one island. Which can and has destroyed a market. I'm open minded to those suggested ideas.
Resources have always been unlimited in Perpetuum. It is purely a factor of the amount of time you put into it. If I want a billion titan, I can go mine it. And I will go mine it. Be it on gamma or alpha. There isn't any way around it. Unlimited resources is not the problem.
Actually your wrong. When there WAS a population prior to random ore spawns it was very common that All the alphas ran out of ores. Very common actually. There was even allotted epriton mining on beta within Alliances, lolol.
Resources have always been unlimited in Perpetuum. It is purely a factor of the amount of time you put into it. If I want a billion titan, I can go mine it. And I will go mine it. Be it on gamma or alpha. There isn't any way around it. Unlimited resources is not the problem.
I get your point but the ore per hour yield on alpha is so much smaller.
I kinda like the idea of lowering the outpost limit per island, and only allowing one corp terminal per island. Or removing the island limit and having a radius of so many km between outposts. This would stop the terminals everywhere on gamma issue.
You cant really keep other corps from living in someone else gamma outpost. Other than the fact the outpost can be deconned without your knowledge and all your assets could be lost. Unless you reduce the production bonuses for non corporation members using someone else's outpost.
The way you limit multiple corps living on one island is limit the amount of resources available.
Shadowmine wrote:Resources have always been unlimited in Perpetuum. It is purely a factor of the amount of time you put into it. If I want a billion titan, I can go mine it. And I will go mine it. Be it on gamma or alpha. There isn't any way around it. Unlimited resources is not the problem.
Actually your wrong. When there WAS a population prior to random ore spawns it was very common that All the alphas ran out of ores. Very common actually. There was even allotted epriton mining on beta within Alliances, lolol.
Yeah, remember when CIR and TOG had their falling out? I remember something along the lines of "mining all the epriton, not showing up for intrusions or island defense".
Whether this is a good or bad thing I can't really say at this stage / population in the game. With Merkles suggested changes you would have to mine outside of your outpost maybe 15-25% of the time, where at least there would be constraints to mining.
I too used to think that unlimited recources was a bad thing, however I no longer beleive that for at least the lesser ores. The problem is rather simple, when no bots are destroyed none need to be created. If people are losing bots you are driving demand and people can only mine at a set rate. You want to ballance the rate at which new bots are created with the rate that they are destroyed somewhat.
The game could use some recources which were limited and were fought over, but the current ores in the game are not really a good canidate for it.
The way you limit multiple corps living on one island is limit the amount of resources available.
Let me make it clear ore will always remain unlimited if not the game ends. What Ville is trying to say is allow a 'Cooldown' between mining sessions so you can only, lets say, 100m per week of epriton max/island as an example, if you need more than that, then u need to mine somewhere else or buy.
To me, the production bonuses on gamma are what is worth fighting for. Protecting your corporations ability to take advantage of it, and denying your enemies ability to take advantage of it. And a having a safe haven for noralgis growing.
Isnt that why beta stations were taken back in the day? Production bonuses and a safer place to mine epi from?
Celebro wrote:We already have open pvp on beta, and a different kind of pvp in gamma give us more tools to siege and with more players and it will be balanced. I don't want another beta on gamma. Make different betas with more rewards with one terminal no OP, make gamma islands with no MPCs but higher rewards.
Here here! Gamma must be different to Beta and vice verca, not just a more extreme version. Can't agree with you about no MPCs though.
Sorry I meant other types of gammas with no construction allowed.
Ville wrote:The way you limit multiple corps living on one island is limit the amount of resources available.
Let me make it clear ore will always remain unlimited if not the game ends. What Ville is trying to say is allow a 'Cooldown' between mining sessions so you can only, lets say, 100m per week of epriton max/island as an example, if you need more than that, then u need to mine somewhere else or buy.
I think we need a need type of highly desireable recource that once depleted moves to other islands and only so many patches of it can exist at one time. It should also take time to regenerate and only very rarely could be found in medium to large ammounts. It should be crucial for construction of new desirable types of bots. It could even be a plant or something in Nia's waters that could be acquired with a new type of gathering.
That would get people off their islands and ninja gatherers taking potential risks for a very lucrative reward. Of course you could drop a terminal right on it too . If it was done right though only the big patches of it would be worth deploying a temporary base for.
One problem we will run into here however is the fact that to travel anywhere you need an abbundance of teleport beacons and even beyond that fact is the current gamma residents will see you jump in and out with proximity probes and have time to potentially drop / logonski you. Gate camps anyone . This goes back to the flow of gamma islands that Merkle talked about.
We could potentially see smaller entities make deep gamma base deployments where they roam from island to island looking for this valuable substance. It would be targets for the PvPers and huge profits for the people taking risks.
That was kinda the point with colixium actually. You had to go out on gamma and set up mining base and be vulnerable to attack. Look how that worked out. Miners will mine safely when it is at all possible. And setting artificial limits on the amount of ore able to be mined per day or whatever is just gonna make corps wall off multiple islands.
We are attacking this problem from the wrong angle. Trying to force miners to pvp isn't gonna fix anything.
That was kinda the point with colixium actually. You had to go out on gamma and set up mining base and be vulnerable to attack. Look how that worked out. Miners will mine safely when it is at all possible. And setting artificial limits on the amount of ore able to be mined per day or whatever is just gonna make corps wall off multiple islands.
We are attacking this problem from the wrong angle. Trying to force miners to pvp isn't gonna fix anything.
The complete walling off of islands goes back to Merkles original point. Also that brings up other controversial points: entities can potentially wall off the entire of gamma and use spark teleport to control each point as it comes under attack / use via proximity probes.
Miners did use to take risks for epriton (even before walls and completely solo). I was one of them. People lost bots all the time if they slacked off. It was a good system though as you could make so much money it didn't matter if you lost a termis and even potentially rivalers. Some miners such as myself miss being able to take risks in exchange for increased reward.
EDIT:
The goal ins't to force miners to take risks, the goal is to provide the option for increased rewards to get people active and out into the gameworld outside of safety for everyday gameplay. Bots need to be destroyed or the economy of this game CANT work.
If bots only die during gamma seiges that happen very seldom even when the game has a population, we are in big trouble.
Sundials correct.
To me, the production bonuses on gamma are what is worth fighting for. Protecting your corporations ability to take advantage of it, and denying your enemies ability to take advantage of it. And a having a safe haven for noralgis growing.
Isnt that why beta stations were taken back in the day? Production bonuses and a safer place to mine epi from?
Near launch, it was very rare to even have a Termis and there were no Riv MK II's, so even a 1 to 2%advantage to effciency made a huge difference compared to the total amount that was minable; that was true for ALL ore, not just epi.
I was mining 100M Titan a night with my fleet. (Edit: just before I stopped playing)
Combine that with very few losses and production really isn't that important to keeping a war machine running. It still makes a difference on the market, but Gamma is a wasted investment as a marketing tool.
The old Ore system was unlimited BUT ore fields took many days to fill up again. The new ore system doesnt have this limiting factor so now ore really is unlimited.
I prefer the old system as that seems to have had better ballance.
With no bots destroyed gamma isn't marketting to anyone but your corp/private storage
Let's tackle one problem at a time here and forget limited fields for a while. Limited fields is something we have already gone over in another thread. If we can't do that then we might aswell stop posting here since nothing will ever get decided.
This thread was raised by this post, so re-read it if you have to and say what you think.
If ore is too plentiful, then the production bonus' isn't that important. Even less so now that you can get production bonus with the new research system.
Meaning, if Gamma is too difficult to use, then players simply won't use it; for production reasons at least.
Probably, at this point (like sparking), any change that makes gamma more difficult to use (like removing epi) will result in players just abandoning it.
The raw materials market isn't exactly overflowing, and as always time is the overriding factor. If producing on gamma means I can spend 25% less time mining due to production bonuses. I don't see how that isn't appealing. But as I said before, resources are not the biggest concern.
The raw materials market isn't exactly overflowing, and as always time is the overriding factor. If producing on gamma means I can spend 25% less time mining due to production bonuses. I don't see how that isn't appealing. But as I said before, resources are not the biggest concern.
Indeed you are right about the resources themselves not being the biggest concern. No matter how resources are balanced if there is not risk taking, death and destruction the details of the resources are irrelevant.
Solution: More death and destruction
Merkle's proposed changes would help in this area.
The raw materials market isn't exactly overflowing, and as always time is the overriding factor. If producing on gamma means I can spend 25% less time mining due to production bonuses. I don't see how that isn't appealing. But as I said before, resources are not the biggest concern.
Sure, time is.
I doubt that mining 10% more material over even a year would take more time then farming NIC to build, defending, and maintaining a gamma base for that purpose.
I really think we can get this problem fixed without adding in a new resource.
If a 3k radius is too large lets shrink it down a bit. That is why this is open to discussion.
We speak of unlimited resources being a problem, I dont exactly agree. I think unlimited resources that are 100% SAFE, is not a good idea. That is why I suggested opening up gammas, you still have safe areas, yet you have some danger there as well. This will fit in on both sides of the fence.
Now its just a matter of scaling down gammas (Buffing them so less is more), and then have terraforming in there as well. This would solve so many issues were having atm.
After looking at some different sizes I like a 2-2.5K range. Maybe 2.5K base radius and 2.5K distance between bases, still 3K distance on teleporters. Need some coastline restrictions as well. Still though, some sort of mechanics need to prevent blocking travel from teleport to teleport on certain islands with choke points around the teleporters.
Let us build sandcastles but lets be realistic about the extent which they affect gameplay and economy. Just because something is a huge investment doesn't mean there shouldn't be any kind of balance adjustment done if its for the greater good of the game as a whole. Just imagine if walls were never changed... The end result for gamma is the same really. People still tried to justify unrestricted wall placement after what I saw at Kentagura... remember Kentagura, never forget.
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