Topic: Artifacting & Structure

One of two things needs to be done -

A:  Artifacts will not spawn inside of terraformed structures - They're not worth terraforming through a stupid wall to get at (particularly:  Structures that have been abandoned)

B:  Artifacts despawn after 24 or 48 hours and respawn elsewhere.

Right now I'm pretty much tapped out because all of my remaining locations are inside of 2 defunct bases that have been constructed to *MINDLESS* complexity and size.

Re: Artifacting & Structure

Um, you cant code for something to know if something is "abandoned".

That's like asking them to "read our minds".

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Re: Artifacting & Structure

Then they need to go with option B - unaccessed artifact signals disappear after 24 to 48 hours and refresh elsewhere on the same island.

Re: Artifacting & Structure

Whorum Post Alt wrote:

Then they need to go with option B - unaccessed artifact signals disappear after 24 to 48 hours and refresh elsewhere on the same island.

That wouldn't work.. say you'd scan an artifact down with it's timer to 47:59 and it'll disappear right before you do the last scan.

Re: Artifacting & Structure

It would work if the expiration time would be displayed for all artifacts when you scan. But I really don't know whether constantly tracking the expiration of thousands of individual artifacts would be feasible from a server perspective.

6 (edited by Ludlow Bursar 2013-08-19 16:02:12)

Re: Artifacting & Structure

Maybe if the expiry time was only added to the database when an artifact was scanned. Would be far far far less rows to deal with for whatever background server process checked these things.

...and while we're at it, what about the 1000ish raw material fields - I know that "fields" don't really exist as far as the server is concerned but lets just suppose you found a way to make the server recognise a "field".

"Oh look", muses the server, "nobody's had so much as a grain of sand out of this field for a fortnight. It must be in really rum old spot. Think I'll delete it and put it somewhere else".

                               
EDIT: In fact no need to "put it somewhere else". Just delete it, the current raw material threshold checking process will take care of the rest.

Re: Artifacting & Structure

Ludlow: the difference between minerals and artifacts is that minerals are on the world level and are the same for everyone, while artifacts are different for every character.

8 (edited by Ludlow Bursar 2013-08-19 17:06:37)

Re: Artifacting & Structure

hmm puzzled why you point out the difference.

Sure, potentially the server could have to track 360 artifact expiry times for every subbed account which would have an impact on server resources but realistically you're only going to need to track a tiny fraction of that. If you only check for expiry those artifacts with an expiry time (i.e. only artifacts that someone has scanned) and if expiry is 48 hours then artifacts drop off the list pretty quickly. Most would only stay on the list for minutes since  they can be deleted when popped.

If you look back at changes to the artifact table in the DB - or log them for a couple of weeks - you could make a pretty accurate estimate of how many un-popped artifacts the server would have to keep track of at any one time. Certainly a good enough estimate to know whether it was feasible. Lets face it, after an artifacting session a player would typically leave, what 6, 8, maybe 10 un-popped ( EDIT: That is, scanned and un-popped) and how many players regularly artifact every 48 hours? I would guess at maximum of 2% of subbed/trial accounts. Artifacting is great but its occasional for most. 

As for raw material deposits, I don't see that expiry dates would have any noticeable impact on server resources. Every time the threshold checker runs compare total in raw material deposit to the total the last time the checker ran. If that total is different change deposit expiry date to two weeks hence, if not do nothing. If checker finds a field past expiry time delete the deposit.

Re: Artifacting & Structure

Ludlow makes some good points, I would add that this would only be needed for artifacts on gamma.

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Re: Artifacting & Structure

I would approach this as such:

Player activates geoscanner with artifact charge:
(0) start transaction
(1) server cleans old artifacts (DELETE FROM artifacts WHERE expires < '2 days ago' AND zone is 'current', etc.) - with the table properly indexed this query can run within a fraction of a millisecond and essentially clean up the entire table of expired artifacts
(2) server counts artifacts on the island for the current player, if below 10 add the relevant amount (again, should be less than a milisecond)
(3) commit
(4) do whatever it is the server does now as far as artifacts go, and run a delete/insert routine when an artifact is found

And well, considering the gamma terrain (this happens on alpha too though), would a couple of imagefill functions considering coastlines and unpassable terrain, originating from incoming teleports (so fill from all incoming teleports) not reasonable result in the areas you can drop artifacts and new ore fields?

Hypothetical example: http://i.imgur.com/lqcPJDm.png

11 (edited by Whorum Post Alt 2013-08-20 02:56:32)

Re: Artifacting & Structure

Well, Zoom, consider this:

Artifacts only 'spawn' when scanned for - no need to have every artifact recorded for me on every island until I go to that island and initiate a scan.  That would then populate that particular island for me.

If I haven't 'scanned' an island in 48 hours [using that duration as an example] the scans on that island should depopulate until I initiate another scan.

This would reduce the DB population on artifacts considerably for each player?  [Mind you, I have no idea how it's handled internally, but still, it does seem logical].

If I am actively scanning an island the results should have timers - no need to keep an immediate running tab.  Just a DB cell that gives 'time of artifact placement'.  After 48 hours the DB deletes it and populates another (providing I scan on that island again, otherwise nothing happens, the artifact is not even 'despawned', until I do.  That initiates a DB call and wipes all 'older than 48 hour' results and repopulates new ones).

Also, perhaps a 'stability' score could be implemented.  Stable contacts are relatively fresh - 36 hours or less.  Unstable contacts are 36-46 hours old.  Weak contacts are older than 46 hours and could collapse at any time.

Doek wrote:

I would approach this as such:
And well, considering the gamma terrain (this happens on alpha too though), would a couple of imagefill functions considering coastlines and unpassable terrain, originating from incoming teleports (so fill from all incoming teleports) not reasonable result in the areas you can drop artifacts and new ore fields?

Using the terrain map for the current bot?  IMO it would need to use the light bot terrain map - otherwise I could just do an initial scan in something with the lowest slope tolerance, then switch to a smaller bot, reducing the geographic limitations considerably.

But what you say is certainly valid.

Re: Artifacting & Structure

Please note that any type of generation that considers unreachable terrain on a terraformable island will inherently lead to "shortcuts" or exploits. This has been discussed before and it's the reason why we decided that it should be like it is currently.

Re: Artifacting & Structure

DEV Zoom wrote:

Please note that any type of generation that considers unreachable terrain on a terraformable island will inherently lead to "shortcuts" or exploits. This has been discussed before and it's the reason why we decided that it should be like it is currently.

This is true. But that is no reason not to initiate despawn timers on raw materials and artifacts.

                                     
In fact, it is sort of exploitable in a way now. Raw materials will not spawn under a building (I believe, please correct me if I'm wrong). From my observation when the server chooses a random location for a group of raw material tiles (I'll refrain from calling it a field or deposit for reasons already mentioned above) then if any of the tiles are under a building the server chooses a new random position and checks again rather than squeezing the tiles in between the offending structures.

There was always more than one reason to put a line of cheap structures on top of a 2000m wall. big_smile

Re: Artifacting & Structure

Umm, OP, how about artifact on another Island? Wouldn't this solve everything without wasting time and resources on coding?

As it is now, the artifact sites are reset with every server restart ... That usually happens at least once a month for a variety of reasons .... No need for any new coding when there are 36 islands to Artifact on.

Re: Artifacting & Structure

Whorum Post Alt wrote:

Then they need to go with option B - unaccessed artifact signals disappear after 24 to 48 hours and refresh elsewhere on the same island.

Also, unaccessable to you because you are not a member of the corp that built the base and therefore cannot pass the defenses without dying? How is the server supposed to determine what corp you are blue and red to? Right now I believe the Artifact sites do not spawn on inaccessable terrain ... And most bases have an entrance, so theoretically the site inside the base is not enclosed by impassable terrain, just defenses.

Way too much concern when you simply can artifact on a different unused Gamma.

Re: Artifacting & Structure

Join a corp with gamma bases, these artifacts were not intended for a solo roamer. Count yourself lucky not all islands are occupied.

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Re: Artifacting & Structure

Maybe not occupied, but certainly hands down inconvenient.
Of four I explored I was unable to progress very far because the teleporters were trenched off.  On the one I use are two 'inactive' base structures - one of which I cannot fathom the construction of because a large portion of it is completely inaccessable to even light bots by slope... I'm not about to slog around a terraforming bot just to find an artifact hit.
And then there's having to haul back the goods, without dying, once my hauler is full.

Especially since it seems that the only MK2 CTs that spawn now are industrial - I've found 45 in two weeks, not a single one is combat mech.  And now I'm down to 4 accessable contacts until they, too, end up spawning inside of those structures  (1/3 of them are inside of physical barriers - walls/slopes put in place by terraforming).

Re: Artifacting & Structure

If all you ever do is level 3 sites, eventually you are going to be left with nothing but level 1 and 2 artifact sites. You must search for all levels to insure a steady stream of level 3 sites.

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Re: Artifacting & Structure

Shadowmine wrote:

If all you ever do is level 3 sites, eventually you are going to be left with nothing but level 1 and 2 artifact sites. You must search for all levels to insure a steady stream of level 3 sites.

I am in favour of a despawn timer but it must be a like for like replacement. If you let an infestation I despawn an infestation I should respawn.

20

Re: Artifacting & Structure

Seems like a LOT of complication for such a small gain

All I have to say on this topic is that you can artifact hunt on alpha / beta and not worry about terraforming and buildings  wink


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Re: Artifacting & Structure

Artifact 1 sites provide a sum total of nothing = A wasteful time sink.  It's simply not worth my time to do anything other than infest/obs.  The rest get ignored, so all of the alpha 1 & 2 islands have nothing but sal/ind/sci I sites left for me now.

Artifact II sites provide *MAYBE* enough to pay half of the cost for the scan charges.  I only pop them to clear them, I CBA what most contain (trash).

Artifact III sites may provide something of worth, but seldom as much as mining or NPC grinding for 1/4 the time.  But does provide certain things more often than NPC grinding - (cortexes, beacons).  With sci II/III sites dropping nothing but industrial CTs the only reason to hunt them down is parts.

Re: Artifacting & Structure

Do as you wish, but I know a guy who made BILLIONS of nic artifacting. And he did all level sites. Not necessarily for the loot that dropped from a low level sites, but to remove that site and have a higher tier site appear in its place. It may take a little time, but if you find a good island. I think it is by far the best way to go.

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Re: Artifacting & Structure

There are empty and almost flat islands where you can artifact in peace. Use that information.

I don't think devs need to waste time tweaking artifacting. It's good as is right now.

Re: Artifacting & Structure

Any time the server restarts artifact sites will disappear. well they used to dont know if thats still the case.