26 (edited by Dazamin 2013-03-08 21:36:59)

Re: Beacon Pit Exploit

Ville wrote:
Dazamin wrote:
Zortarg Calltar wrote:

the gain of kernels is differtent from beacon types, besides the market is dead for it for ages. so what numbers do you want to use for it?

as written above loot is hard to handle.
you can take a avarage price for the higher tier items and substract the repair costs.

t1 loot is even more difficult. do you repair and recycle, recycle only, and what numbers do you use to calculate it. and what facilities and skills do you have at hand... (and if you have t3 facilities then you would have to calculate that investments as well)

fragments are not realy worth anything.

the numbers up there are plasma/nic only. of cource loot is there. i only have vague numbers for that, because it heavy depends and is fifferent for most beacon types.
for example of the t2 mech beacon had: 0,06 T4 items and 0,85 T3 items + around 80u of T1 loot all of cource damaged.

So your numbers are wrong and don't take into account half of the drops. gg.

You mention the market being dead for kernels, which is always going to happen in this game when very few new players come in, kernels just aren't as important any more for most corps. But the market is dead for most items. You talk about prices dropping, it drops because supply is much higher than demand. Everything can be farmed in much greater quantities than is required for use. Like it or not, beacon farming is part of that problem.

The balance is off on Gamma farming right now. My own PoV is that Gamma should be made less safe, but if you don't like increased risk then you're gonna have to live with reduced rewards, you can't have everything.

I don't want to even begin to tell you the amount of time and energy and Money that is invested in getting a gamma island "safe"  Hell even when you think it's "safe" theres always those two guys(or one using a proxy to connect to perpetuum) who never seem to have a life, who sit in perpetuum all day neglecting their family, responsibilty, and general have no life who just poke holes into what you thought is a "safe" investment.  Which leads to trial and error, during times where you risk EVERYTHING.  What stops a well organized fleet coming in, getting through the initial defenses and laying seige to a base taking it and surrounding it by turrets?  12 terminal cap rule, thats it. 

2 Months. 5 guys, and billions of nic later, to be "relatively" safe and even then it's never 100% safe.  You really need to experience the content and enjoy it before you appreciate things.  I never thought in my entire game development I would enjoy building/terraforming as much as I do now.  Honestly, I was hardcore against this expansion because I thought it would be the lamest thing ever.  But now, seeing some of the empires and their designs and base structures and even creating my own, it is an awesome and spectcular thing.  I am so proud of the the guys in pretty hate machine for building what we have now.  It is a feeling of great accomplishment when you undock, look around and go, "We built this gentlemen."

I do understand why people enjoy it, I don't have any objection to terraforming or base building, but honestly this is not a good system, its the latest in a series of patches that have not brought new players in or returning players back. There was a small blip when Gamma came out but thats it. Nevertheless, each patch has gone in the same direction. I mean if everyone is happy with it, I guess you could continue playing with max 100 guys logged on at a time, but that seems pretty meh to me.

But I guess people are free to continue pulling numbers out of their arse to prove that everythings fine and nothing needs changing v0v

PS - before anyone says Steam, getting people to try the game has not really been a big problem, unfortunately virtually no one stays, Steam won't fix that.

27 (edited by Top Killer 2013-03-08 23:25:12)

Re: Beacon Pit Exploit

nothing to see here

Re: Beacon Pit Exploit

If you do beacons on alpha, your not allowed to place them near to each other, while there is no reason for this rule, as you could not do 3-4 beacons with only 2 player. On Beta/Gamma there is no such rule, while there would be a reason to do this in order to balance beacon between alpha and beta/gamma.

So please don't patch on reward for one beacon in a way that punished all that like to do one beacon after the other, but there has to be considered that one doing 4-6 beacons at once on Gamma/Beta has a clear benefit over those doing one after the other without having higher risk.

Re: Beacon Pit Exploit

@daz:
sir dazamin if my numbers are wrong then pls enlighten us all and show us the real numbers. i have done some statistics for over 100 of those t2 mech beacons and i am pretty sure the the numbers are correct. what numbers you use for the actual worth of the loot is up to you and if you know better then pls do enlighten us. im pretty sure the basic numbers in terms of what drops are correct, but maybe my 100 beacons were wrong.

@goffer
well you so called "no risk" on gamma only comes at very high investments (multi billions of nic) while your "no risk" on alpha is for free. and i surly will not consider beta as no risk. on beta your chances of being caugt is way higher.
aslo you have to get your beacons to gamma in the first place. if you bring a hundret beacons then you have a quite expensive cargo that might even blow up if you get caugt. risk might be low cause you can use interzones with expensive cargo, but still there is not true savety out there for sure.

30 (edited by Kokomut 2013-03-09 14:19:21)

Re: Beacon Pit Exploit

Or just remove npc plasma buy order at player terminal, now you have another added risk of having to transport to beta to sell it

Re: Beacon Pit Exploit

Arga wrote:
Ville wrote:

it is an awesome and spectcular thing.  I am so proud of the the guys in pretty hate machine for building what we have now.  It is a feeling of great accomplishment when you undock, look around and go, "We built this gentlemen."

and then have the devs make a change that negates all that work... yes I'm still bitter.

This is the same with beacons.

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Re: Beacon Pit Exploit

Jasdemi and others, who can't perform anything serious in the game. Everyone who envy to others. You are ridiculous and pathetic.
Also DeVs, who follow such whining... You going to show your incompetence in the game design and adjustment one more time...

...i knew about consequences of my topic. Actually i forced new ppl leaving. You really not deserved to have it all.

P.S. After beacon nerf i'll show you one more thing to force next ppl leaving.

P.S.P.S. Sorry guys. This game will die anyway.

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Re: Beacon Pit Exploit

Hunter wrote:

Jasdemi and others, who can't perform anything serious in the game. Everyone who envy to others. You are ridiculous and pathetic.
Also DeVs, who follow such whining... You going to show your incompetence in the game design and adjustment one more time...

...i knew about consequences of my topic. Actually i forced new ppl leaving. You really not deserved to have it all.

P.S. After beacon nerf i'll show you one more thing to force next ppl leaving.

P.S.P.S. Sorry guys. This game will die anyway.

rofl, hunter. the first good post of you in a while. yarr

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Re: Beacon Pit Exploit

Zortarg Calltar wrote:

@daz:
sir dazamin if my numbers are wrong then pls enlighten us all and show us the real numbers. i have done some statistics for over 100 of those t2 mech beacons and i am pretty sure the the numbers are correct. what numbers you use for the actual worth of the loot is up to you and if you know better then pls do enlighten us. im pretty sure the basic numbers in terms of what drops are correct, but maybe my 100 beacons were wrong.

You said in your own post that your numbers were wrong, I'm not saying you made a mistake, I'm saying you intentionally give a number that is not right. Prices have dropped on tokens but you use the old value. You then say you're not going to assign any value to kernels or loot. Therefore your numbers are wrong, and funnily enough, wrong in a direction that benefits your argument.

Re: Beacon Pit Exploit

Ville wrote:

2 Months. 5 guys, and billions of nic later, to be "relatively" safe and even then it's never 100% safe.  You really need to experience the content and enjoy it before you appreciate things.  I never thought in my entire game development I would enjoy building/terraforming as much as I do now.  Honestly, I was hardcore against this expansion because I thought it would be the lamest thing ever.  But now, seeing some of the empires and their designs and base structures and even creating my own, it is an awesome and spectcular thing.  I am so proud of the the guys in pretty hate machine for building what we have now.  It is a feeling of great accomplishment when you undock, look around and go, "We built this gentlemen."

Quoting something I actually think is well written, by Ville none the less (of course removed trolling fuuu )

I agree, there is a certain reward in the accomplishment on base design. They just need to be less difficult to crack so more people will show up and try and kick your castle down.

Currently for beacons there is the "500m" placement rule .. Someone said this was done to not grief alpha players by dropping 6 beacons on his ***, even though they wont aggro or AoE his bot.
Beta and Gamma currently have no restrictions.  You can terraform a box on Gamma that will keep multiple beacons in a small area and use AoE to help run these more efficiently.
On Beta you can also drop multiple beacons but the last changes to NPC AI meant that they will pathfind a way out of any "natural" beacon pit and also remove themselves from a potential AoE death .. Much harder to farm these Beacons on Beta.

That about right? Terraforming on Gamma is what make beacons too easy. If you must limit placement, do it on Gamma, NOT BETA. This may actually give a reason to hang out on Beta, and would promote co-operative game play, simply because you will need more than a few player to try and successfully chain 4-5 beacons. This also will increase more opportunities for PVP on Beta, isn't that what Beta is for?

I am not sure missions should be nerfed before the assignment rework is done, seems a waste of resources. Anni explained how missions work but neglected the important part, you need access to Beta outposts to run the missions and you're not always friends with the owners.  The flipside is it IS Beta, and there already is a mechanic called SAPS that allow you to get ownership... Players could "nerf" their enemies missions if they so choose.

Quit calling it an exploit Jas, its an imbalance. And it will be corrected soon. Just some of my thought on what to do about it...

Re: Beacon Pit Exploit

i didn't neglect that you need beta outpost access to do it -

each of the current powerblocks, and those denying that its an exploit or unfair advantage - are those having that access, and hardly have to fight over it (m2s had their outpost for 2 years straight - and not because they could defend it...)

more or less its a counter to all those saying "this will nerf noobs more then vets"

last but not least - beacons already had been nerfed a tiny little bit - in the beginning all NPCs spawned on a single tile, not caring about standing to close to each other. Nowadays they move away from each other.

Sure, the WAY better way to nerf them would be adjusting the spawn mechanic, so you cannot spawn them in an encased part of the terrain - like you cannot fully block the path in a Tower-Defense game - but that would simply be WAAAAAAAAY more work then just put a limit on how close together you can place them, which is already an ingame mechanic.

a funny way to do it would be spawning heavily shielded NPCs with low hitpoints under "beacon pit" conditions -> for that they would only need to teach NPCs to cycle shields like a pro... and spawn with them active

there are countless ways to make this "beacon" feature more immersive and "entertaining" as game mechanic that it was planned to be. Thats just much more work their team cannot handle.

after all - im for making the practice target to transfer 1 NIC per 10 Damage you deal to your wallet, and raise random research by 0.1%.   that way, the grind part would at least be doable for non-botters too...

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Re: Beacon Pit Exploit

BB Hunter. I am allready crying. We will miss you.

Re: Beacon Pit Exploit

Quick lets make a really complicated mechanic to solve a really simple issue.

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Re: Beacon Pit Exploit

Reminds me of the turret 1km->2km change. Zortag accurately pointed out that there is a lot more "stuff" under the hood going on to make that 6,8M avg beacon pay out that much.

Kneejerk.

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Re: Beacon Pit Exploit

Listen, it's all about control. What stops a self mining and artifacting producer from doing the same thing. The reason some people are making billions is because they own all aspects of the process.  A corp owns the beta station to do the missions. They do the missions, they haul the tokens, cash them in, buy the beacons, then haul them to gamma, then have to pop them. Sounds like a whole lot of *** work if you ask me.  Are you factoring that into the nic per hour too??

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Re: Beacon Pit Exploit

For just the hauling and transporting of tokens/beacons over in secure areas??

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Re: Beacon Pit Exploit

Easiest fix is increase token costs of beacons OR cut the goes canning missions token drop in half.

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Re: Beacon Pit Exploit

Ville wrote:

Easiest fix is increase token costs of beacons OR cut the goes canning missions token drop in half.

Nope, that would be a flat nerf to everyone who runs beacons, thats not the point of this change, the point is a nerf to those running multiple beacons simultaneously on Gamma. This is the most effective solution to that problem. Whether you agree that it is a problem is a separate issue.

Re: Beacon Pit Exploit

What else do you want to nerf on Gamma?  That is one of the few perks to Gamma, hell let's just make this *** were noone wants to live there with no real features.  Roaming spawns?  egh alright... right now Gamma is an indy paradise, PVE's make little to no money.

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45 (edited by Lemon 2013-03-10 01:33:41)

Re: Beacon Pit Exploit

Dazamin wrote:

Nope, that would be a flat nerf to everyone who runs beacons, thats not the point of this change, the point is a nerf to those running multiple beacons simultaneously on Gamma. This is the most effective solution to that problem. Whether you agree that it is a problem is a separate issue.

Im sorry where was this stated as the problem? How, out of all of the forum post's this week did you deduct it was the # of beacons being done at a time together on gamma as the problem.

The silver-lining to the disgusting excuse of a "problem" is hopefully this enlightens the devs to exactly who is crying right now and how much thought they have put in to the situation. They are upset with how many beacons "we" can do, dont pay attention to the missions, allowing us to make the nic to buy so many and giving us the tokens alone to buy them.

I mean if this is the kind of mentality or even thought process going on in NeX, no wonder it failed.

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46 (edited by Dazamin 2013-03-10 05:37:47)

Re: Beacon Pit Exploit

Lemon wrote:
Dazamin wrote:

Nope, that would be a flat nerf to everyone who runs beacons, thats not the point of this change, the point is a nerf to those running multiple beacons simultaneously on Gamma. This is the most effective solution to that problem. Whether you agree that it is a problem is a separate issue.

Im sorry where was this stated as the problem? How, out of all of the forum post's this week did you deduct it was the # of beacons being done at a time together on gamma as the problem.

The silver-lining to the disgusting excuse of a "problem" is hopefully this enlightens the devs to exactly who is crying right now and how much thought they have put in to the situation. They are upset with how many beacons "we" can do, dont pay attention to the missions, allowing us to make the nic to buy so many and giving us the tokens alone to buy them.

I mean if this is the kind of mentality or even thought process going on in NeX, no wonder it failed.

So why exactly do you think this change is being made?  It's pretty obvious why this change is being made, whether you agree with it or not.

Also missions are next to get nerfed so don't worry bro tongue

Re: Beacon Pit Exploit

Because someone Clearly is not wanting to put a bandage on an open wound, instead of stitching up the wound.  Fix the problem with is clearly not the beacons.  The last time we did 7 beacons at once the server died.

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Re: Beacon Pit Exploit

Ville wrote:
Arga wrote:
Ville wrote:

it is an awesome and spectcular thing.  I am so proud of the the guys in pretty hate machine for building what we have now.  It is a feeling of great accomplishment when you undock, look around and go, "We built this gentlemen."

and then have the devs make a change that negates all that work... yes I'm still bitter.

This is the same with beacons.

We should totally bring walls back.....

Re: Beacon Pit Exploit

then would have the kentagura alliance moved on to other games?  Would we have a somewhat plausible US timezone?  All for what?  0 reimbursement.

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Re: Beacon Pit Exploit

@Zortag
gamma base costs a lot, but this costs are not necessary to produce a place to farm beacons without risk, they are necessary to secure your area.
And for bringing beacons, yes transport costs, but it is not that expensive or risky as you tell here. You could just ask yourself why gamma corps do beacons no longer on alpha to get an answer about risk vs reward.
An even if you loose 1 out of 10 beacons transported, and consider that transport is not for free, you have a good reward.