1 (edited by Ludlow Bursar 2013-01-24 14:04:32)

Topic: Reinforcement Timers

The documentation on this is not comprehensive and this description (Multi-phase emergency mode) is quite confusing.

Can someone confirm whether my understanding (below) is correct or not and if it is then answer some matters arising:

  1. Terminals have multiple emergency phases, 3 phases for standard, 4 for advanced and 5 for high tech terminals.

  2. All other buildings except command relays and turrets have 1 emergency phase (http://www.perpetuum-online.com/Changelog:2012-07-11)

  3. Reducing a building to 50% of its maximum hit points will cause it to enter emergency mode

  4. A building will exit emergency mode in the hour set by the offset timer on the terminal from which a building derives its command plus 2 days. For example, a building enters emergency mode at 20:01 on 03-Feb and the offset timer is set to 02:00 then the building will exit emergency mode at 02:00 on 06-Feb.

  5. On emergency mode exit, the building is PvP flagged for two hours. If a the building is not put back into emergency mode in those two hours, the number of  remaining emergency modes remaining will increase by 1 immediately

  6. To repair a building in emergency mode, its PvP flag needs to be flipped on. The PvP flag will also be flipped on if, for any reason, command is broken to that building

Now, the questions:

  1. If the offset timer is set to the same hour that a building happens to enter emergency mode, for example, offset timer is 20:00 and building enters emergency mode at 20:00 on 03-Feb does the emergency mode end at 20:00 on 05-Feb or at 20:00 on 06-Feb?

  2. Does a building exit emergency mode at the same minutes past the hour that it entered? For emaple, if the offset timer is set to 02:00 and the building enters emergency mode at 20:37 on 03-Feb, does emergency mode end at 02:00 on 06-Feb or at 02:37?

  3. When the PvP flag is flipped on to repair a building does the PvP flag stay on until the scheduled exit or just for two hours? Or, does the PvP flag stay for only two hours but the number of remaining emergency modes not increase until the scheduled exit? Or does the PvP flag stay for two hours but the building remains vulnerable until the scheduled exit?

Re: Reinforcement Timers

A B C are correct.

D. A building will exit emergency mode in the hour set by the offset timer on the terminal from which a building derives its command plus 2 days. For example, a building enters emergency mode at 20:01 on 03-Feb and the offset timer is set to 02:00 then the building will exit emergency mode at 02:00 on 06-Feb.

It's not 2 days but 3. I assume this is a typo because your example shows 3 days.

E. On emergency mode exit, the building is PvP flagged for two hours. If a the building is not put back into emergency mode in those two hours, the number of  remaining emergency modes remaining will increase by 1 immediately

If a terminal is not put back into emergency mode after a previous one within the 2-hour PvP-flagged window, then nothing happens and the emergency counter will be reset.

If a terminal is shot into a second (third, ...) emergency mode within the 2-hour PvP-flagged window, then the count of remaining emergency modes will decrease.

In the case of normal buildings which only have one emergency phase, once they exit an emergency phase they can be destroyed within the 2-hour PvP-flagged window. If the 2 hours are up and they still live, they will again enter a new emergency phase if they are shot below 50% health.

F. To repair a building in emergency mode, its PvP flag needs to be flipped on.

I'm not aware of such a mechanic. Buildings can always be repaired.

The PvP flag will also be flipped on if, for any reason, command is broken to that building

That's partly true. The PvP flag on buildings is supposed to indicate that when you shoot them now, they can be destroyed instead of going into emergency phase.

For buildings this is straightforward because they only have one emergency phase. If they come out of one they will be PvP flagged for two hours, indicating that they can be destroyed.

For terminals, the PvP flag should be only visible when they come out of their last possible emergency phase. If this is not how it works then that's a bug.


Questions:

1. If the offset timer is set to the same hour that a building happens to enter emergency mode, for example, offset timer is 20:00 and building enters emergency mode at 20:00 on 03-Feb does the emergency mode end at 20:00 on 05-Feb or at 20:00 on 06-Feb?

Internally we have millisecond precision, so there is an extremely low chance that the two times are exactly the same.
I can't tell you at which point the +1 day is counted, at 19:59:59.999, at 20:00:00.000 or 20:00:00.001, but I don't think it matters smile

2. Does a building exit emergency mode at the same minutes past the hour that it entered? For emaple, if the offset timer is set to 02:00 and the building enters emergency mode at 20:37 on 03-Feb, does emergency mode end at 02:00 on 06-Feb or at 02:37?

Emergency mode always ends at whole hours, minutes don't matter.

An interesting note here: in extreme cases an emergency phase can be as short as two days only. If the offset timer is set to 0:00, and the building enters its emergency phase at 03-Feb 23:59, then it will exit at 06-Feb 0:00.

3. When the PvP flag is flipped on to repair a building does the PvP flag stay on until the scheduled exit or just for two hours? Or, does the PvP flag stay for only two hours but the number of remaining emergency modes not increase until the scheduled exit? Or does the PvP flag stay for two hours but the building remains vulnerable until the scheduled exit?

I think I explained this above, a PvP flag should indicate the time window where a building can be destroyed.

3 (edited by Ludlow Bursar 2013-01-24 15:12:13)

Re: Reinforcement Timers

Thank you. Thats cleared most things up (including my misunderstandings) but ...

DEV Zoom wrote:

D. A building will exit emergency mode in the hour set by the offset timer on the terminal from which a building derives its command plus 2 days. For example, a building enters emergency mode at 20:01 on 03-Feb and the offset timer is set to 02:00 then the building will exit emergency mode at 02:00 on 06-Feb.

It's not 2 days but 3. I assume this is a typo because your example shows 3 days.

No, not a typo. My example shows two whole days and emergency mode starting at the first offset hour encountered after two days. If it is 3 days then your statement below seems contradictory.

An interesting note here: in extreme cases an emergency phase can be as short as two days only. If the offset timer is set to 0:00, and the building enters its emergency phase at 03-Feb 23:59, then it will exit at 06-Feb 0:00.

If it were 3 days then in your example emergency mode would end and PvP window start at 0:00 on 07-Feb.

So, which is it, 2 or 3 days?

Re: Reinforcement Timers

Emergency times are counted by dates, not elapsed time. You simply need to add 3 days to the starting date, and append the offset time as exit hour.

Re: Reinforcement Timers

DEV Zoom wrote:

For terminals, the PvP flag should be only visible when they come out of their last possible emergency phase. If this is not how it works then that's a bug.

From my recollection (although it was months ago now I could be mis-remembering) when we were waiting to take down the emergency mode counter on a CHAOS siege terminal the PvP flag came on when the terminal exited every emergency mode.

I would happily test in game for you but its quite an expensive experiment to undertake!

Re: Reinforcement Timers

DEV Zoom wrote:

Emergency times are counted by dates, not elapsed time. You simply need to add 3 days to the starting date, and append the offset time as exit hour.

Aha! Thank you Zoom. It all makes sense now smile

Re: Reinforcement Timers

Ludlow Bursar wrote:

From my recollection (although it was months ago now I could be mis-remembering) when we were waiting to take down the emergency mode counter on a CHAOS siege terminal the PvP flag came on when the terminal exited every emergency mode.

Ok, we'll check that then.

Re: Reinforcement Timers

standard terminal info says it has 3 emergency phases

some time ago i can remember <12> telling that if the info of a built terminal says remaining phases "1" while it is in reinforce mode, it means that the last one -> is that true?

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9 (edited by Ludlow Bursar 2013-01-24 22:52:12)

Re: Reinforcement Timers

DEV Zoom wrote:

The PvP flag will also be flipped on if, for any reason, command is broken to that building

That's partly true. The PvP flag on buildings is supposed to indicate that when you shoot them now...

Sorry, just one more thing. You say that is "partly true" but then don't really explain what part.

I get what the PvP flag is supposed to indicate but can you confirm whether breaking command to a building - and it has to be a building since a terminal always has command - will either flip the PvP flag on or cause the building to exit emergency mode?

I'm starting to get the impression that it isn't supposed to be this way. The thing is, it is, and it has been for months. Maybe the emergency mode only ends before its supposed to if command is broken and then reinstated, not just broken. Maybe only if command is broken and reinstated from a different terminal.

Sorry to bang on about this but its quite hard for us to test in game and whatever the reality, there are people wanting to know the definitive answer to what is supposed to happen and what actually does.

Re: Reinforcement Timers

Yes, sorry, that was the true part indeed. When you disconnect a building in emergency phase, it should...

1. ...come out of it, since the emergency shielding is controlled by the main terminal. That's where you control the offset time too, and not on every building individually (that would be a huge chaos). This has been indicated in the game guide as well, but maybe it wasn't stressed enough, or its consequences. (http://www.perpetuum-online.com/Help:MP … n_terminal - "they provide [...] emergency protection")

2. ...get the PvP flag and become destructible, since there is nothing connected to it anymore that would protect it this way. If this wouldn't be the case, you could just break a connection, let the emergency phase reset, reconnect the building, and put on your trollface.

edit: in hindsight using the PvP-flag for buildings is a bit misleading. For buildings it does not mean that "you can shoot me now, and now only" like in the case of robots, because you can shoot buildings whenever you want*. But without the PvP-flag indicator you couldn't be sure beforehand whether they will enter emergency mode at 50% or go all the way down.

* Except terminals. They have that "as long as command relays are connected to me I am invulnerable"-thingy.

11 (edited by Ludlow Bursar 2013-01-25 00:33:36)

Re: Reinforcement Timers

DEV Zoom wrote:

Yes, sorry, that was the true part indeed. When you disconnect a building in emergency phase, it should...

1. ...come out of it, since the emergency shielding is controlled by the main terminal. That's where you control the offset time too, and not on every building individually (that would be a huge chaos).

2. ...get the PvP flag and become destructible, since there is nothing connected to it anymore that would protect it this way. If this wouldn't be the case, you could just break a connection, let the emergency phase reset, reconnect the building, and put on your trollface.

Ok, so does number 2 mean that, if  I shoot a building into emergency mode and go and do something else for a couple of days, the owner can disconnect the building (thus flipping the PvP flag - point 1) sit out the two hours at a time when I'm really not expecting the building to be destructible and have the emergency mode counter increase after those two hours?

That would seem a little broken to me and if this is not the case then may I refer you to my original question 3. If the PvP flag is flipped by having command broken then for how long is the building destroyable? Two hours or until the scheduled end of emergency phase?

[EDIT] Silly question deleted - any building without command is destroyable. You edited your post after I'd started writing and I didn't read back [/EDIT]

Re: Reinforcement Timers

Ok, so does number 2 mean that, if  I shoot a building into emergency mode and go and do something else for a couple of days, the owner can disconnect the building (thus flipping the PvP flag - point 1) sit out the two hours at a time when I'm really not expecting the building to be destructible and have the emergency mode counter increase after those two hours?

I know what you mean, but you're mixing two things here. Emergency counters only apply for terminals, but you can't end their emergency phases with disconnecting, since they are the root of the network.

But yes, this system is broken for normal buildings. The owner can basically exchange the emergency phase for a 2-hour vulnerable phase, with minimal risk involved since the enemy has no way to know when this happens. This isn't a bug, it's simply and honestly an oversight on our side.

Does that not also open up the opportunity for the attacker to put a building into emergency mode, come back in 3 days or so when the building exits emergency mode but before destroying it first put into emergency mode all buildings further down the command chain. Then destroy the building originally attacked, thus breaking command to those further down the chain whose PvP flags would immediately flip and thus make them destoyable? In short be able to kill many structures in a single visit.

Yes, this sounds like it would work like this. However this requires a badly designed network with no redundance to work, and no active defense from the owner when the emergency phase ends. (I leave this here cause I don't think it's a silly question smile )

Re: Reinforcement Timers

DEV Zoom wrote:

But yes, this system is broken for normal buildings. The owner can basically exchange the emergency phase for a 2-hour vulnerable phase, with minimal risk involved since the enemy has no way to know when this happens. This isn't a bug, it's simply and honestly an oversight on our side.

Thanks for the clarifications. May I suggest, then that when a building in emergency mode is disconnected and then reconnected that:

  1. It can only be reconnected (command-wise) via the terminal to which it was originally connected (either directly or indirectly)

  2. When reconnected it is immediately back in emergency mode with its original exit time still in place

Not sure how the timers are stored or calculated at the moment but I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard to add a table with building IDs, Terminal IDs and times and tweak a couple of methods. However, must resist the urge get my programmer's head on - I'll leave that to you guys.

Re: Reinforcement Timers

Yeah I'm not sure how it looks internally either, and probably the easiest solution would be to simply not allow to disconnect a building in emergency phase, but we'll talk about it.

Re: Reinforcement Timers

Remove emergency phase pls and replace itwith stationary shields. Sshields consuming alot of energy to work (similar to robot shields).

Re: Reinforcement Timers

Alexadar wrote:

Remove emergency phase pls and replace itwith stationary shields. Sshields consuming alot of energy to work (similar to robot shields).

If something is not timed, it can be destroyed while you sleep, no exceptions. It's just a matter of numbers.

Re: Reinforcement Timers

Yes, Make the set times, that cannot be changed no matter what the situation is, IE: No Offline'ing, No Decon'ing, No Pulling Connections off.  Nothing.

Incap means just that...Its Incapp'ed.

Alex I can see the direction your going in, its a bit similar to Eve. Not a bad Idea.  (I believe guns worked this way, when they went incap, they stopped working, yet there resists went to 99.99999% It worked until massive amounts of DPS were on them.

Also another Suggestion.  When, and only when, a station is incap'ed.  I, and this is me, would like to see a timer ON LAND, as in hovering above or something, counting down until its out of incap.

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18

Re: Reinforcement Timers

I posted this in another thread but it fits here also ...

Changes the would balance Gamma would be to make a structure go in to "offline" mode when it hits reinforce. This should apply to everything but the mail terminal.

If a structure is in reinforce then it should not be able to be deconstructed.

Nothing should be able to reset reinforce timers >>> If you dis-connect a network or structure while its in reinforce the timer should remain just like all other settings for that structure (relation and otherwise)

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Re: Reinforcement Timers

*edit: Thank you, enough topics are hijacked already. - DEV Zoom

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Reinforcement Timers

Zoom, read the first page.

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Re: Reinforcement Timers

Bad necro, a few mechanics have changed since.

And I'm not sure what I'm supposed to see, but if you're still going on about the "pvp flags for all vulnerable phases", that bug has been fixed long ago when it has been reported above. Reason being that it does not make sense to show the flag when the base can't be destroyed.

Re: Reinforcement Timers

It does not make sense to show when the base can't be destroyed?  I think the whole purpose is to show when the base could be attacked, and FYI the bases on xiantor flagged at each interval of the end of the emergency timer.  They always did.  So unless that bug, changed between "Hey guys, we are wiping gamma in two weeks and three months later" then I don't remember it being in a change log, because I don't think that's a bug but a QOL feature for both the Attacker and Defender.  Can you provide the change log when it happened please?

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Re: Reinforcement Timers

By attacked I mean pushed through an emergency phase or be destroyed.

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Re: Reinforcement Timers

"Should I take out the crayons?" smile

Orange shield on base = invulnerable
No PvP flag = base can't be destroyed, it will have another emergency phase if you shoot it
PvP flag = no more emergency phases left, you can destroy it

Re: Reinforcement Timers

Let's focus on the big elephant in the room.  What happens with the new bug?  More importantly what happens when we start losing things because of this bug?  I'm not trying to be an *** but I'm tired of beta testing a game that's been in development for eight years.

Am I going to get reimbursed?

Like what happened in
Ticket #2338

You know the one were I lost oh.. 750 million Nic in assets because of the "command bug".  That I never got back, which lead to me losing a base that I spent a year playing in?

Or Chaylodor base that bugged and... Nothing?

You put out a poll for Landers Bridge...  Would if Chaos got their stuff back?

I'm frustrated.  I've once again invested a lot of my time bud, a lot.  A lot of resources and I think its unfair if we start losing stuff but the track record ain't promising.

Did BOS corp ever get re-funded for the terraforming they did on Davis bay that magically disappeared?

I really hope this is fixed before stuff goes boom, there's more than resources at stake, there's man hours.

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