Re: F2P maybe?

F2P !!! No, no and no.

Re: F2P maybe?

leave the ftp kiddys home pls. they are no ppl that have intrest in a long term play anyway.

making a product costs money. and ppl who think they can have everything for "free" should go home.
besides ftp games focus on stuf that ppl can "buy". this is mostly stuff that is no benefit to the gameplay/game experience/game quality at all.

like pink robot skin with hearts on it.

if you want to develop a good game then it can not be ftp. because half of the developing resources will go in senseless ftp goodies. also the guys that realy want to play the game have then to pay 50€ a month for ep boosters and other *** just to get what we have now. why? because the devs still have to earn money and if ppl want to play "free" then the others have to pay the rent.

ftp model sucks from head to toe if you know whats behind it. it only works because most humans are stupid and do not see that.

name me one good title. gw2 seamd good for leveling but has the same item grind in the endgame as all the others...

ftp.. no thank you.

Re: F2P maybe?

You know, my wife asked me today if she could color her robot pink with hearts on it.

When I said no she was like..."Important feature!"

Pity she would have liked the game too.

29 (edited by Gharl Incognito 2013-01-22 02:27:27)

Re: F2P maybe?

Make F2P accounts very restrictive.  They do not get access to all Extensions(so Assault Bot is is big as they get- both Industry and Combat.. and no Sequers), have a cap on available EP, and are restricted to selling on to the games core corps and manufacturing on Alpha Islands.

You could maybe introduce Syntec bots(no bonus abilities, no HP bonus from mechanics skills, etc...) for them to tool aroud with... you could make Zerging Gamma imposible if a Gamma Station had an ECM pulse that only impacted on Syntec bots but cycled very consistently.

You can bet Yagle sales would skyrocket after a few weeks...

With enough grind time they could maybe buy an ICE but then you make them sellable only on Beta and Gamma and people buying ICE is people buying ICE...

Sociorum, inimicos, omnes

-:does speak for NSA on the forums:-

Re: F2P maybe?

F2P would be good to get more people interested I think. Theres not much a player can do to get hooked in 30 days on a trial, especially when the trial limits market use and this game revolves around market use.

I think SWTOR is doing a fairly good job of their F2P system, it allows people to still continue subscription and get full access to the game while Free play still has access to stuff, but it limits it. Should the player want to do more, they pay. Bait and Hook.

Though I do think .5x or 1.5x is a bit extreme. Something like .8 and 1.2 is more fitting for EP time multiplier, if such were to be included in F2P.

I think the main goal should focus on getting more players since it's boring to have only a few people playing. My main drive in playing the game is revolved around the market, and the condition it is in is very sad and dead. Hence why it's been at least 2 months since I did something more then upgrade some skills.

Re: F2P maybe?

Exolis nails it.... market is dead means player base follows.  PvP Players meed Indy players to create the stuff they want to break.  Indy players need a mobile market to stay interested... another option would be to scale down the price of bots

Sociorum, inimicos, omnes

-:does speak for NSA on the forums:-

Re: F2P maybe?

F2P - in the beginning I was one of those against it like many others.
With the "current" situation not improving since too long now, I do think about whether F2P maybe could be seen as last resort.

Other than this, even if the content changes I doubt there will be a nice playerinflux happening based on past big changes.
The same counts for Steam release - Greenlight did give us a chance but once the first months were over most did disappear.
___________________________________
For those that like to read a little story:

A little sad tale about the Pepetuum Project...
The market is just one indicator that tells us: this game lies in coma since months - most vets are more or less awaiting the shutdown of the medical support.
We still do see what Perp is and could be so don't want to throw that hope away. But how to revive this game?

Playerbase is already low and decreases further with each month passing like a slowing down heartbeat of the comatose - the market as one of its indicators.
Vast Public appearances of DEVs are like the doctors showing up some times only saying "We're doing the best we can" sometimes encouraging us with new prospects.
There were that many Miracle treatments beforehand (like Gamma expansion) which certainly were necessary to prolong life and evade a sudden death but still - it was a fight against the symptoms of the illness not its cause:
The hospital has run out of money long ago so the necessary medicaments (patches, content, activity) can't be delivered on time.

How about Free 2 Play
Those analogies seem harsh and are my subjective opinion that led me to think about F2P.
F2P has many faces - we already have some kind of it here in form of some snowflakes. But this again seems like an analogy - the deepest winter of Perp.
But that aside, the free to play models have proven over the years to be more of moneymakers than subs or one time pay. And this capitalism is my reason F2P might give Perp another small chance for a miracle.

It shines in variety of solutions – from pay-to-win models along to pay-for-fun/assecoires.
Ideas like increase EP income per pay/sub is one of the first, paintjob/pets/... one of the latter. Another point would be awards for subbing like betatester/EA = shiny bots, or after lets say 6 payed  months a little carrier pet (similar to the demon in sacred 2).

For me a mixture of P2W and P4F would be okay.
Though I don't really like the subbased P2W like it's in Aion with its monthly Premium packages, if its more something like a collectors edition or other one time pay packages in different levels (bronce, silver, gold) with some ingame and some artists goodies (posters, models,..) I wouldn't mind – Even less if players get a discount depending on the time they had already subbed yarr (like: you've subbed without fail since more than 18 months, you get +30-50% discount).
Combined with P4F elements like Paintshop, timed Speedimprovements of your spark on alpha (terminal activation only, only applied if no module active) or partythings like fireworks – it might bring in enough money to get a little miracle to happen.

That means if people still want to try Perp then and if the DEVs can still afford the time and costs for those.
One other good point beside money would be there too – for the steam release discussions can be cut down from payment amount/methods to talks about achievement and thus may be finished faster.

Conclusion:
F2P may be a possibilty to get some money in if it isn't already too late now.
There are enough models out there to keep the original intend of the game. To warn you beforehand - there's no surefire way to get it back up. But lean back for a moment and seriously think about F2P if you haven't already done so. Just saying a biased „no“ without any serious reasoning because of your pride will mean the end of Perp.
As I see it, PP does NOT have problems because of missing content rather than missing resources so the DEV team can grow (instead of demount), concentrate on PP and have fun tempering with it again.

To the DEVs: If there's no chance for a comeback left, I beg you don't hide - we will cry with you.

Re: F2P maybe?

F2P isn't something that solves the inherent obstacle of making the game a game; therefore fun, involving and entertaining to play. Depressive empty landscapes equally divided by three dominant colors, rudimentary mechanics that revolve entirely around perpetual grinding (kernel, ore, money). It denies any player even a rudimentary relation to humanity, as lore presents the player as a computer-virus enslaving a robot planet.

A new player can't sympathize or feel related to either the Nuimqol, Thelodica or the Pelistal races. There is nothing human about them or their motives apart from few fluff-lines of text few read and most forget, as there is nothing remotely human about the world they inhabit. Most players refer to them as Blue, Yellow/Red and Green which is enough to understand how utterly irrelevant and wasted their development has been. I might as well call them Caldari, Amarr and Gallente eh?

EVE has that "buzz" of humanity and emotion that makes players feel emotionally invested. EVE accurately builds it up in the background that the universe is huge but still filled with worlds to use, NPC and Player traders and fighters to outperform, wormholes, systems and sectors to explore with many possibilities for an enterprising player. The very universe it's built around is human; you'd be hard-pressed to find regions that are exactly the same - some are richer some are poorer, some are bigger some are smaller but they are all inherently flawed in some way. It's been many years but I vividly remember finding a "Pirate Space Bong", a purely fluff item with a funny description - a small step to make the NPC's I was killing more "human", but it delivered good entertainment value to me and I imagine to the guys I usually play with when I autolinked it in corp-chat.

Perp's universe on the other hand betrays the robotic lack of imagination behind the minds that created it; everything is equal, the only difference is the shape of the projectile you fire. You trek through islands belonging to a race players cannot feel any connection with, the empty "color coded" landscape is only broken up by a few clumps of plants here and there, and the occasional player. The music score is depressing enough to add to this and accurately convey the robotic empty world, devoid of life and basic humanity.

Each race-color has exactly the same amount of islands of exactly the same size, filled with exactly the same types of NPC's doing absolutely nothing besides shuffling in place or in circles, filled with almost the same infinite plants and almost the same infinite ores. A few islands are marginally different because terraforming means "build giant skybox-like object and fill it up with repair-nodes and turrets".

The only humanity Perp ever had was what the players brought and continue to bring. Thats I'm sure F2P can help in the short term, but a new and better - nevermind less robotic more human - developer would help even more. A world redesign, rebrand, full wipe and complete re-launch is needed to solve the problem, with a free-month to accounts that paid at least once for the game. After ~3 years in perp, I'm a firm believer that F2P and Steam will just cure a symptom of the disease for a relatively short time.

Hopefully I'll be proven wrong for a change. But seeing the problems "legit" gifted accounts and multiboxing are causing, just imagine how fun it would be if everyone would have a nice ~20 free-account fleet of Termis or w/e to mine for them without having to go through the tediously boring process of recreating new accounts every 2 weeks. lol

[18:20:30] <GLiMPSE> Chairman Of My Heart o/
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The Imperial Grand Wizard of Justice

Re: F2P maybe?

good summary syndic. Thats a kind of translation of my metaphorical ragepost from like 1 year ago.

TL;dr:

Free2play alone would not raise the number of active player, just the number of active agents.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

35 (edited by Gharl Incognito 2013-01-24 04:18:24)

Re: F2P maybe?

Pretty much nailed it there Syndic. 

That said bringing a human element to the game has two sides.   Creating a Gamma Outpost that acts like a sort of Nian Switzerland, offering friendship to everyone, claiming no territory and acting purely as a commercial/industrial hub could be awesome, more so if it was predicated on building an energy transfer station not owned by one of the Big Three(faction corps) as this would be a wholly story driven goal and could lead to all sorts of shennanigins... both player and dev side

The downside is it would almost certainly be raided into nothingness after a day or two.  Get's you thinking though.. what could you do with one point in Corp Management?

Sociorum, inimicos, omnes

-:does speak for NSA on the forums:-

36 (edited by Arjha Shanoo 2013-01-24 13:04:46)

Re: F2P maybe?

Nice post Syndic
Mostly the things that led me to think about f2p, but it may lead the discussion to far from the topic wink

About the lack of imagination:

In beta and short after launch AC had enough ideas; reducing grind, improving features and more variety and possibilities were the basics of discussions. The ideas shared by the blog were just the tip of the iceberg - we're still waiting for the energy credits or the alliance feature, talks about a forth race seem forgotten now...
With the financial situation getting harsher,  the small team of AC couldn't afford to grow - the resources and the time were missing to improve PPs quality and to implement ideas, which were delayed again and again while the workload was growing. Finances and manpower are the basic for not-open-sourced games - and you can't get in enough money with medium quality and cheap prized subs alone.

About multiaccounting in F2P

As mentioned above there are F2P models for that too - just look at the accounts as character slots. The idea of limiting the accounts is old, F2P models take advantage of it and sell additional slots. Perp could do with a similiar model:
1 acc free
further 2-4 accs 15€ per month/acc
further 5-x accs 30€ per month/acc
= over 200€ per month with 10 accs but less than the current sub for two accs

Those that just want more accounts for their convience in playing capsuled solo games will need to pay and think it over twice.

TL:DR of my posts:
F2P is an option mostly because of its financial aspects, players coming because of free to play is the least side effect maybe even an illusion. Players come because of quality. But no money means low-to-no quality of the product to sell.

Re: F2P maybe?

I do agree with syndic and have a feeling the devs understand the issues he has brought up but let's face it we all know the dev team is small and struggling to bring what's needed to the game at the pace it's needed so I do hope that steam can bring the income required to do this.
  Now to expand on syndics ideas I think also what eve has that is a high point of interest to a lot is all the passive and check one a week mechanics to gain items in game. I would love to see modules that can be places to mine offline at much slower rate of coarse. Or how about human finally get the ability to inhabit the world and can be put to work, need to be protected, or can be used as mini combats or logi aka drones

38 (edited by BeastmodeGuNs 2013-01-25 00:35:15)

Re: F2P maybe?

wow, all this cuz i quote a post Dan made on here with a quote of funjord lol

Reading this signature fills you with determination.

Re: F2P maybe?

Another thing Eve has is easy access to danger.  In perpetuum the 'easy access' involves a shipload of time walking(trundling if you're not savy with the T4 LWF fits) to get to the 'cool' danger areas combined with a very high chance you'll be ganked on sight no matter who or what you are.  Corp alligience is hardly as strong as killboard alligience and this damages the potential 'story world' of perpetuum.   

If unaligned Joe Blogs the solo newbie could do some scanning or minor mineing on Gamma(the SAPless PvP/Player controlled areas) then there is potential for new life also.  On Beta this was never possible due to SAPs being hackable by anyone and thus 'aggressive defence' becomes the logical option.  Gamma islands offer a far greater potential then just massive war zones, they make it possible to make economy and industry wholly player focused.

Sociorum, inimicos, omnes

-:does speak for NSA on the forums:-

40 (edited by Canthra Monero 2013-01-26 23:11:53)

Re: F2P maybe?

YEEEEEAAAAHHHH, more LORE!!!! Everybody loves reading about games!

<Edit> Complete sarcasm btw, I loved lord of the rings but I do not wanna play fing gimli or whatever his name is I just dont care.

Re: F2P maybe?

Canthra Monero wrote:

YEEEEEAAAAHHHH, more LORE!!!! Everybody loves reading about games!

Yes, they do... that's why so many games are based on movies, books, TV shows, etc...  There is a reason sequals attract more money if an origninal was good.  In a sandbox players make the story... if the majority of the population are ego driven the story end up like Twilight... except with a vain person staring at a kill board mirror not Shovelface the Vampire.

Sociorum, inimicos, omnes

-:does speak for NSA on the forums:-

42 (edited by Syndic 2013-01-26 21:31:40)

Re: F2P maybe?

I firmly believe everybody loves to feel emotionally involved with a game/movie/book etc. Good stories do that to people, just look at Star Wars, Star Trek, Song of Ice and Fire, Lord of the Rings, and many others that affected millions over the decades. Look how many people are familiar and actively read EVE's history, but wouldn't touch the game itself with a ten feet pole.

[18:20:30] <GLiMPSE> Chairman Of My Heart o/
CIR Complaint Form

The Imperial Grand Wizard of Justice

43 (edited by Gharl Incognito 2013-01-27 02:01:16)

Re: F2P maybe?

Canthra Monero wrote:

YEEEEEAAAAHHHH, more LORE!!!! Everybody loves reading about games!

<Edit> Complete sarcasm btw, I loved lord of the rings but I do not wanna play fing gimli or whatever his name is I just dont care.

Exactly so, why play Gimli when you can build your own Mordor(I'm looking at you terraformers) and then do whatever the hell you like there.

Downside to this is that a storyline, even an amazingly loose characterization in fact, denotes the role an entity plays within a story.  If a character is named Cain they are usually a bad guy or a 'hard boiled' good guy... the characterization associated witrh Cain a la Biblical hubris engenders that response.

None of that exists in Perpetuum so all characterisation is subjective.  It was great fun 'hateing' on CIR and the Sov Nov back when I was a member of FOOM.  I bore no ill will towards anyone in the Sov Nov group, it was just fun to have the characterisations to build my characters game story.  Now I've 'joined the dark side' as it where and it is fun for the same reasons.

Emotional investment is great for game immersion, crossing that border into vilification is the danger.  That's what happens when a swathe on individuals are given carte blanche to shape the world.  Introducing a level of self imposed moderation could be a good thing(i.e. attack your enemies instead of everyone).

Sociorum, inimicos, omnes

-:does speak for NSA on the forums:-

44

Re: F2P maybe?

buy Ice.

Tux ~ Kill the messenger, he was part of it all along.
Euripides ~ Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head.
Bertrand Russell ~ War does not determine who is right - only who is left.

Re: F2P maybe?

Tux wrote:

buy Ice.

Tux you sig is so apt in this case it;s uncanny

Sociorum, inimicos, omnes

-:does speak for NSA on the forums:-

Re: F2P maybe?

Syndic wrote:

... some almost interesting and not self-congratulatory stuff, shocking, really ...


Hopefully I'll be proven wrong for a change. But seeing the problems "legit" gifted accounts and multiboxing are causing, just imagine how fun it would be if everyone would have a nice ~20 free-account fleet of Termis or w/e to mine for them without having to go through the tediously boring process of recreating new accounts every 2 weeks. lol

Hi, My name is Syndic. I am no longer relevant to this game. I pioneered every exploit I am now trying to cause drama about by posting the same garbage in every possible thread. I don't even really know if the exploits I used are being used but I figure if I repeat it enough times on every forum post people will believe they are. I can throw stones now because I am not currently doing the things I am complaining about. Also I want to wreck the game I'm not playing but you all are, because none of you care that I'm not around any more.

^^ sorry guys but obvious translation is obvious.

Re: F2P maybe?

Tell us more about how you really feel. lol

[18:20:30] <GLiMPSE> Chairman Of My Heart o/
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The Imperial Grand Wizard of Justice

48 (edited by Arga 2013-01-30 19:24:56)

Re: F2P maybe?

Reading back over the posts, everyone is acutally in agreement here on the basic problem. Not enough active players (This is My reason for going inactive, and the potential for new players with steam coming the reason I'm looking at this game again).

The discussion of F2P is an honest attempt to solve that problem, but Syndic points out that the game simply isn't that fun to play, which is another valid issue.

We've seen the "Boom and Bust" cycle enough times to know that just drawing players into the experience isn't enough.

What Perptuum needs is better player retention; and by retention I don't mean just paying the sub to keep EP accumulating. Retention is about getting players to login and actively participate and make Perp a living world.

This begs the questions "Is the monthly subscription the reason players become inactive?"

There's little arguement that the fee is a barrier to entry, but there were also many players that did pay (and do pay) the fee, but also became inactive (like me).

Sure, with a non-subscription based game, players can come and go without that payment barrier but Perp is not an 'Instant Action' type of PVP game like LoL. It's not even like SWOTR, where you could in theory login and hop into an instance and play. Perp is much more like Eve. Eve is not F2P in the traditional sense, a non-subscription based game, but it is F2P for many players through the use of PLEX.

The dev blog seems to indicate that they are aware of the issue of retention, and focusing on the new player experience and the PVE aspect of the game is going to have a greater and longer lasting impact than just removing the subscription fee.

In order to make F2P work monetarily, there needs to be microtransactions of some sort, to pay the bills. The other solution that was mentioned was the Freemium model.

In the freemium model, the idea is that part of the game is free and part of the game requires a fee to access. This model only works if there is a compelling reason to access the paid portions of the game. And we run up against the same problem of retention. If the 'good' content still requires a fee to access, then it is no different then the current situation, where the good content is already available for paying agents, but they don't use it.

Which simply brings us back around to making the game better.

I'm optimistically hopeful from the dev posts, that they have recoqnized (and in some cases listened more closely to their player base) the short-comings of an otherwise great game.

tl;dr- Did someone mention bacon?

Edit: accidentally a few words

Re: F2P maybe?

Arga just summed it up pretty well. The freemium model might not be that bad though. Making a starter/novice island with limited resources, freeze EP once the trial peroid ends, could kick start unsubbed players to try out the game as long as they are like limited to light bots only , and can't leave the starter island. Harsh restrictions with a good varied PVE would work pretty nicely.

Any other type of f2p model will not work due to the microtransaction issue, tramping with the play 2 win aspect.

RIP PERPETUUM

Re: F2P maybe?

Celebro wrote:

Arga just summed it up pretty well. The freemium model might not be that bad though. Making a starter/novice island with limited resources, freeze EP once the trial peroid ends, could kick start unsubbed players to try out the game as long as they are like limited to light bots only , and can't leave the starter island. Harsh restrictions with a good varied PVE would work pretty nicely.

Any other type of f2p model will not work due to the microtransaction issue, tramping with the play 2 win aspect.

What makes you think it would retain players with so limited features? Sure it'll get people to check it out, but judging by the retention rate the current full feature-list provides it wouldn't make much of a splash.

P2W aspect has already been a big influence on the game -> number of accounts your PC can run = win. A little while ago people running ~12 mining accounts each was not unheard of, but almost commonplace.

A solution for F2P without flopping flat on its face would be simple;

IN-GAME
+ EP generation happens only while account is subbed. 
+ Gamma ownership happens only while account is subbed.
+ Free players get the "trial" EP.
+ Approach command is removed from the game.
+ 1 PC, 1 client.
+ Decrease extension 1-6 prices, offset by increasing 6-10 prices to achieve the same total EP cost.
+ Paintjobs (or insert other robot customization fluff) added to the game for NIC only to subbed accounts, toggle for players to choose if they display all paintjobs/their own only/none at all.
+ Advertise the F2P conversion to all MMO newsites known and unknown to man, coincide it with the Steam release for maximum "buzz".

OUTSIDE-GAME
+ Every remotely sandboxy thing the players do is submitted to all MMO newsites known and unknown to man - if 1 publishes it there's a good chance more will, they copy-paste each other more then you think (this should have been done from release and I've been saying it since release!)

What does it achieve and why?

- It tackles the elephants in the room known as multiboxing, Iso-boxing, proxy-sharing and account-gifting. You can have as many accounts as you want, but you can only use one at a time per PC. Suddenly newbies don't have to sub/aquire 3+ accounts to hope to be competitive at PVP in 6+ months.
- It gives all free players full access to the game - instead of limiting them to a leper's island (little to no content), incentive is provided to sub and continue subbing (EP, ICE, fluff).
- It pretties up the game for those gamers that want to play a graphically cool game, but leaves room for min-maxers to toggle stuff off.
- It creates "buzz". The more people try it and get hooked, the more buddies they'll tell about it and the more of them get hooked the more buddies they'll tell about it. F2P is a buzz-word, use it.
- "Hero rifter" moments.
- Instead of pacing behind EVE, Perp leaps in front of EVE. What do you think is CCP's next logical move from F2P Dust and PLEX-EVE?

[18:20:30] <GLiMPSE> Chairman Of My Heart o/
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