Re: 2 Exploits Need Patches For ASAP To Fix PvP (Easy Fixes)

Weapon X wrote:
Zhyntil wrote:
Siddy wrote:

That's the thing, destroying cargo is not easy in real world.

People take grate care to protect the cargo, so even a self inflicted damage usually gets mitigated.

Also not all materials even care if you try to destroy them. Expensive paintings are easy to scuttle, but few tonnes of minerals cares little what you do to it.

Hell, there is cases where people dump the sh*t in ocean only to realize other people will salvage it from the bottom of GOD DAMN SEA.

So please, keep the REAL WORRRRRRRRRRRRRLD analogies away from our "select all + destroy" 2 seconds click procedure.

As i said, depends on the grenades. Current day, if we had to leave our M1 tank in a combat area for some reason, we had grenades that could destroy the tank to keep it from the enemy. This includes the main gun breech and components that have titanium and other alloys,......There is your real world analogy, I am sure the technology could be figured out in this scifi game.
As someone said earlier, the stuff inside the mech is the pilots until the mech goes down.

That doesn't make it a good gameplay mechanic.

Nor does it prevent me scavenging the tank for raw alloys to build more stuff..

Re: 2 Exploits Need Patches For ASAP To Fix PvP (Easy Fixes)

Weapon X wrote:

Less complaining from all the sequer drivers would be nice also. If your on beta you risk losing ur stuff. Deal.

There's not a single post in here from the DRIVERS about losing stuff, its all from the PVP'ers complaining about losing the cargo because it gets deleted.

I like your solution though, Pirates... Deal, you heard it from Weapon X.

53 (edited by Weapon X 2010-12-14 04:24:17)

Re: 2 Exploits Need Patches For ASAP To Fix PvP (Easy Fixes)

Arga wrote:
Weapon X wrote:

Less complaining from all the sequer drivers would be nice also. If your on beta you risk losing ur stuff. Deal.

There's not a single post in here from the DRIVERS about losing stuff, its all from the PVP'ers complaining about losing the cargo because it gets deleted.

I like your solution though, Pirates... Deal, you heard it from Weapon X.

Lol wut?

Theres a bunch of posts from ppl defending the instant delete crap. I assume their hauling on beta. Risk goes both ways you know..

Re: 2 Exploits Need Patches For ASAP To Fix PvP (Easy Fixes)

Weapon X wrote:

I don't get why risk vs reward needs explaining. [...] If your on beta you risk losing ur stuff. Deal.

I think that's the flaw in your "risk vs reward" logic. They ARE losing stuff, whether they are dropping it as loot or destroying them before that. And the reward for you is that you win either way.

Re: 2 Exploits Need Patches For ASAP To Fix PvP (Easy Fixes)

DEV Zoom wrote:
Weapon X wrote:

I don't get why risk vs reward needs explaining. [...] If your on beta you risk losing ur stuff. Deal.

I think that's the flaw in your "risk vs reward" logic. They ARE losing stuff, whether they are dropping it as loot or destroying them before that. And the reward for you is that you win either way.

What about reward for the pirate?

They are also risking (in most cases) more valuable equipment and can end up with a few miner modules?!?

Why does this need explaining...

Re: 2 Exploits Need Patches For ASAP To Fix PvP (Easy Fixes)

Weapon X wrote:

What about reward for the pirate?

They are also risking (in most cases) more valuable equipment and can end up with a few miner modules?!?

Why does this need explaining...

/this

What the hell is happening here....this is a FULL LOOT FULL PVP game!!!! Right clicking your cargo, select all, and deleting - REGARDLESS OF WHAT BOT YOUR IN IS HORRIBLE IMPLEMENTATION. Please fix this asap.....

Re: 2 Exploits Need Patches For ASAP To Fix PvP (Easy Fixes)

I am all for people not being allowed to destroy what they carry.  If you wanna blowup your cargo add a 2 min timer, and when you blow, you lose everything, but your wreck still drops equiped modules.  Like its done in EVE.

Re: 2 Exploits Need Patches For ASAP To Fix PvP (Easy Fixes)

Weapon X wrote:
DEV Zoom wrote:
Weapon X wrote:

I don't get why risk vs reward needs explaining. [...] If your on beta you risk losing ur stuff. Deal.

I think that's the flaw in your "risk vs reward" logic. They ARE losing stuff, whether they are dropping it as loot or destroying them before that. And the reward for you is that you win either way.

What about reward for the pirate?

They are also risking (in most cases) more valuable equipment and can end up with a few miner modules?!?

Why does this need explaining...

maybe you should go play a real full loot on death pvp game instead? oh wait, they are all dead because they are BAD. have a nice day fail pirate, learn to gank and get some loot.

Re: 2 Exploits Need Patches For ASAP To Fix PvP (Easy Fixes)

You could not insta-destroy your cargo in EVE.
You could only destroy things in station, and that mechanic really should be the same in this game.
You could self destruct your ship, which had a timer, but even then, your cargo was still up for possible drop.  I saw many a cap pilots self destruct simply for Killmail denial.


I think this thread needs more real world analogies to justify "right-click, destroy" magic.
Maybe try some WWII analogies....

Re: 2 Exploits Need Patches For ASAP To Fix PvP (Easy Fixes)

Industrial Revolution wrote:
Weapon X wrote:
DEV Zoom wrote:

I think that's the flaw in your "risk vs reward" logic. They ARE losing stuff, whether they are dropping it as loot or destroying them before that. And the reward for you is that you win either way.

What about reward for the pirate?

They are also risking (in most cases) more valuable equipment and can end up with a few miner modules?!?

Why does this need explaining...

maybe you should go play a real full loot on death pvp game instead? oh wait, they are all dead because they are BAD. have a nice day fail pirate, learn to gank and get some loot.

He didn't say it should be "full loot" on death. Please comprehend your reading before sperging.

They're talking about the ability to destroy your cargo in clicks thus making ineligible for drop variable.  Hardly saying "everything should drop always".

61 (edited by Deverell 2010-12-14 07:04:56)

Re: 2 Exploits Need Patches For ASAP To Fix PvP (Easy Fixes)

Industrial Revolution wrote:

maybe you should go play a real full loot on death pvp game instead? oh wait, they are all dead because they are BAD. have a nice day fail pirate, learn to gank and get some loot.


I was originally going to just keep reading this thread to be entertained by the most humorous responses against destroying loot in your inventory. However, your comment seems to be the most ignorant and WRONG thus far. So, I've now been encouraged to say my piece.

What MMOs are you refering to that failed due to full looting upon death?

I can name two that havent, the still surviving Ultima Online and the ever growing Eve Online.

Despite two major MMO's, that seemed to have defied all odds, they still remain in existance with an ever growing player base. Yet you've failed to give examples of such games that attempted such a thing and "failed" because of it.

Also you seem to assume that pirates want "All loot to drop regardless of the circumstance". This logic is entirely false and quite unrealistic. So in what way is destroying a car, for example, mean that im guaranteed to salvage my $500 engine and $400 radio and have a guanantee that they will be like new when I take them out of the wreckage? There isnt one, so that's not what pirates ask for. What Pirates ask for is that someone hauling mods or bots to their Corp's homebase unprotected cant just delete them from his cargo like they were non-existant into, quite literally, non-existance. Pirates should have a chance, if their luck holds and the items werent destroyed, to take their spoils from a foolish corporation who were ignorant enough to believe they wouldnt be attacked.

The point of this is profit motive, what encourages me from approaching a hauler risking my very expensively fit Bot? just getting mods that may or may not sell well? or mods PLUS loot they've acquired elsewhere? No there shouldnt be a system where you get EVERYTHING, but there should be a system that allows me a chance to be rewarded for outwitting my victim by recieving loot other than just crappy mods.

Also, taunting him so as to "learn to gank"? Really? Are you not mature enough to add an ounce of productive feedback other than that?

If he's a pirate, his job is to gank. Keep your foolhardy comments to yourself unless you have something intelligent to add to this discussion.

Re: 2 Exploits Need Patches For ASAP To Fix PvP (Easy Fixes)

Destroying cargo here is just as stupid as it was in Mortal Online.  Yes, you're losing your stuff when you die, but that doesnt mean you should be able to deny your enemy of your stuff.
The Game
Driving a sequer?  You delete everything valuable that they could loot.  You also wouldnt be out there if you didnt have stuff to transport.  A Sequer driver would also be the most likely to delete his cargo, as he is most mindful of it.
The Game
It saddens me that the Devs seem so adamant about leaving the mechanics as they currently are.  I realize you guys dont play MMOs hardly ever, but some of it is being to show through with your decisions.

I am Perpetuum's Most Dangerous Agent and an equal opportunity troll.
-> You just lost The Game <-
"Perpetuum sounds like a something I would stick up my *** for enjoyement." -Kaito Kurusaki

Re: 2 Exploits Need Patches For ASAP To Fix PvP (Easy Fixes)

DEV Zoom wrote:

Do you realize you are wanting something that is not yours in the first place? In my (humble) opinion they have every right to do what they want with their cargo since they worked their *** off for it.

seriously, how do you explain "their" stuff to simply disappear into thin air seconds before their robot is destroyed? Its kind of a lame thing to do, and it would be nice with a system to stop this lame exploit.

Re: 2 Exploits Need Patches For ASAP To Fix PvP (Easy Fixes)

Defending deleting is not the same as complaining about losing the load and the bot, the driver loses it either way.

I keep providing a solution to this issue that has nothing to do with reprogramming, but no one seems to address it; try social engineering the stuff out of the cargo hold. This is an MMO, and you have the ability to communicate to your victum. Carry your own container and tell them to fill it or die.

Comparing how this is handled to other games is just as poor an agrument as trying to find real life analogies. There are always other factors in the game that makes the mechanics different. For instance in eve you can warp away and deny your foe not only the non-deletable cargo but the kill too.

If your going to ask for this type of change, it would have to be global. That is not being able to delete cargo would be in effect for all bots. So when your cargo is full, and a really nice piece of loot drops, you can't delete something to make space.

If you're willing to accept the trade off of losing the ability to delete anything from cargo, then I will would have to support it. Making changes that specifially ONLY benefit pvp and not industry or mining is not balanced.

what are you willing to give up in exchange for being able to loot the cargo of transports?

Re: 2 Exploits Need Patches For ASAP To Fix PvP (Easy Fixes)

Arga wrote:

Defending deleting is not the same as complaining about losing the load and the bot, the driver loses it either way.

I keep providing a solution to this issue that has nothing to do with reprogramming, but no one seems to address it; try social engineering the stuff out of the cargo hold. This is an MMO, and you have the ability to communicate to your victum. Carry your own container and tell them to fill it or die.

Comparing how this is handled to other games is just as poor an agrument as trying to find real life analogies. There are always other factors in the game that makes the mechanics different. For instance in eve you can warp away and deny your foe not only the non-deletable cargo but the kill too.

If your going to ask for this type of change, it would have to be global. That is not being able to delete cargo would be in effect for all bots. So when your cargo is full, and a really nice piece of loot drops, you can't delete something to make space.

If you're willing to accept the trade off of losing the ability to delete anything from cargo, then I will would have to support it. Making changes that specifially ONLY benefit pvp and not industry or mining is not balanced.

what are you willing to give up in exchange for being able to loot the cargo of transports?

Which is why my suggestion works well for your situation.
The Game
You can delete items, but they are saved in a 'recycle bin' of sorts for a period of time.  If you fill that space with new items, your old items will be deleted permanently.  This helps with 1) you cant mass delete items before death, 2) you can delete items if you want to loot other things, and 3) you cant carry more than your cargo capacity by deleting items then refilling your bot then just dying at your destination.

I am Perpetuum's Most Dangerous Agent and an equal opportunity troll.
-> You just lost The Game <-
"Perpetuum sounds like a something I would stick up my *** for enjoyement." -Kaito Kurusaki

Re: 2 Exploits Need Patches For ASAP To Fix PvP (Easy Fixes)

Zhyntil wrote:
Siddy wrote:

That's the thing, destroying cargo is not easy in real world.

People take grate care to protect the cargo, so even a self inflicted damage usually gets mitigated.

Also not all materials even care if you try to destroy them. Expensive paintings are easy to scuttle, but few tonnes of minerals cares little what you do to it.

Hell, there is cases where people dump the sh*t in ocean only to realize other people will salvage it from the bottom of GOD DAMN SEA.

So please, keep the REAL WORRRRRRRRRRRRRLD analogies away from our "select all + destroy" 2 seconds click procedure.

As i said, depends on the grenades. Current day, if we had to leave our M1 tank in a combat area for some reason, we had grenades that could destroy the tank to keep it from the enemy. This includes the main gun breech and components that have titanium and other alloys,......There is your real world analogy, I am sure the technology could be figured out in this scifi game.
As someone said earlier, the stuff inside the mech is the pilots until the mech goes down.

Zoom, is this your alt?

Re: 2 Exploits Need Patches For ASAP To Fix PvP (Easy Fixes)

Neoxx wrote:

You can delete items, but they are saved in a 'recycle bin' of sorts for a period of time.  If you fill that space with new items, your old items will be deleted permanently.  This helps with 1) you cant mass delete items before death, 2) you can delete items if you want to loot other things, and 3) you cant carry more than your cargo capacity by deleting items then refilling your bot then just dying at your destination.

But your not giving up anything in exchange.

What I was suggesting was that by removing the ability for transport pilots to delete cargo, the PVP community is gaining guarnteed looting, but is losing nothing.

There are basically 3 professions, Combat, Gathering, and Industry. The ability to delete item is available to everyone, and is useful in situations other then just denying loot to pirates; option 2 of looting other items.

Changing the delete to a recycle bin helps only the combat profession when it allows them to recover looted items after destruction.

If there is going to be a balancing change, it should be offset with a negative. True some balance issues do not require an offset, but this really isn't a game breaking issue. There is nothing stopping a PVP bot from deleting those 2000 missles just before they die either (granted this probably doesn't happen as often as a Seq driver, but honestly before this post it never even occured to me to delete the cargo if I was being attacked).

I wasn't trolling when asking what you would give up for the ability, it was a real question. Would giving up the ability to cycle loot using delete be worth ensuring the occasional Seq kill dropped its full cargo?

Re: 2 Exploits Need Patches For ASAP To Fix PvP (Easy Fixes)

Arga wrote:
Neoxx wrote:

You can delete items, but they are saved in a 'recycle bin' of sorts for a period of time.  If you fill that space with new items, your old items will be deleted permanently.  This helps with 1) you cant mass delete items before death, 2) you can delete items if you want to loot other things, and 3) you cant carry more than your cargo capacity by deleting items then refilling your bot then just dying at your destination.

But your not giving up anything in exchange.

What I was suggesting was that by removing the ability for transport pilots to delete cargo, the PVP community is gaining guarnteed looting, but is losing nothing.

There are basically 3 professions, Combat, Gathering, and Industry. The ability to delete item is available to everyone, and is useful in situations other then just denying loot to pirates; option 2 of looting other items.

Changing the delete to a recycle bin helps only the combat profession when it allows them to recover looted items after destruction.

If there is going to be a balancing change, it should be offset with a negative. True some balance issues do not require an offset, but this really isn't a game breaking issue. There is nothing stopping a PVP bot from deleting those 2000 missles just before they die either (granted this probably doesn't happen as often as a Seq driver, but honestly before this post it never even occured to me to delete the cargo if I was being attacked).

I wasn't trolling when asking what you would give up for the ability, it was a real question. Would giving up the ability to cycle loot using delete be worth ensuring the occasional Seq kill dropped its full cargo?


why the hell do you need to give something up?

this is silly exploit and im speachless that lead DEV doesnt see the issue here

Im getting more and more worried about the development of this game

Re: 2 Exploits Need Patches For ASAP To Fix PvP (Easy Fixes)

We're losing the opportunity to be doing something else.  Who said this was some sort of trade off?  This deleting thing is just bad, not some sort of seesaw balancing act.  If you kill something you should get what it had.  Some of it gets destroyed in the explosion, but theres something left still.  The 50% drop rate is already deleting some of the items, and if you tried to destroy items IRL you'd still leave some wreckage of it behind to sift through, and here you leave no trace.  Regardless, I dont like comparing this to RL because it doesnt matter.
The Game
I would deny my killers their loot if I was able to, and I probably will if I get the chance, but I dont think I should be able to do this.  they killed me so they should get what I have on me.  If I was hauling kernals to sell or whatever, I shouldnt be allowed to deny them just because I was dumb enough to get myself killed with them on me.
The Game
You're out there with cargo for a reason.  IF you didnt have that cargo you probably wouldnt be where you were.  Why let them delete that cargo and any reason for being there just because they're gonna die?
The Game
To anyone saying to ransom them for their goods:  we cant stop you from moving completely, so negotiating with a moving target is hardly an option.  They will get away eventually, so typing up nice chat messages doesnt work when they're constantly edging their way to the nearest safe zone.

I am Perpetuum's Most Dangerous Agent and an equal opportunity troll.
-> You just lost The Game <-
"Perpetuum sounds like a something I would stick up my *** for enjoyement." -Kaito Kurusaki

70 (edited by Seridur 2010-12-14 11:00:54)

Re: 2 Exploits Need Patches For ASAP To Fix PvP (Easy Fixes)

+1 for loot should not be destroyable immediately.

Someone said that let's imagine that he would have explosives in the cargo and would rather press the button than to leave the loot for the pirates: then maybe there could be a module for this. a module which would allow you to self destruct your cargo (and maybe yourself). But this module would cost money, would use up slot, make you a bit slower (just like any extra module) etc..

Re: 2 Exploits Need Patches For ASAP To Fix PvP (Easy Fixes)

Fit cargo scanner and when you see that he destroyed his stuff just let it go big_smile

Re: 2 Exploits Need Patches For ASAP To Fix PvP (Easy Fixes)

All I can say about this entire thread is, Wow.

PvP isn't broken. You can kill people. Your just pissed off because your intended victim can keep you from having 80U of equipment to pick through.

Your running around in a damn Arkhe specifically looking for Sequers.. Are you honestly going to sit here like you did something amazing to be able to kill one?

Re: 2 Exploits Need Patches For ASAP To Fix PvP (Easy Fixes)

Raev1n wrote:

PvP isn't broken. You can kill people.

yeah.. you can kill ppl in wow too.. the difference is that in this kind of games there are true risks and rewards in pvp...or at least there should be..
no point being a pirate when your prey can destroy all the cargo instantaneously

Re: 2 Exploits Need Patches For ASAP To Fix PvP (Easy Fixes)

This topic is interesting.

I see no reason why someone shouldn't be able to destroy their cargo or their mech for that matter. Denying the enemy the spoils of war is a legitimate tactic.

In eve online people are known to self destruct their ships. Mind you it does have a 30 second timer.

75 (edited by Vorgrim Scout 2010-12-14 16:47:00)

Re: 2 Exploits Need Patches For ASAP To Fix PvP (Easy Fixes)

Ok, here is how it is.

Beta islands are a pvp enabled area. When you go there you are giving up your RIGHT to whatever you are carrying. It is up to you to adequately protect your haul. There are already teleport beacons which allow immediate escape from pirates (terrible mechanic btw) with atleast 1010m warning.

If the Devs won't allow me the ability to make a living from piracy in an OPEN PVP GAME, then say so now, because I can just not resub and go play a game that will.

~ Another thing worth adding is that field containers will end up being the next problem.

Lone sequer, trundling along without a care in the world, spots hostiles. Drops can and deposits loot. Shouts in corp chat for a recovery team. They are going to need to be destructable and lootable as a player in pvp areas.