1 (edited by Flint Ironstag 2010-12-14 21:22:25)

Topic: Crucial market features needed. Please read.

As a potentially budding manufacturer and trader, ensuring that I acquire raw materials at a cheap price, and eventually sell finished products on the market at a profitable markup is of the utmost importance. As time goes on and Perpetuum becomes increasingly popular, more and more players will wish to engage in the trade and market pvp side of the game. Right now, I feel there are several additions the Devs could include that would make the market system more robust, user friendly, and practical.

I humbly request that the Devs consider adding such features. And I more than encourage other players to get involved to get a dialogue going. It would certainly help. smile

Proposal #1: The ability to update/modify existing orders

As Perpetuum gains popularity, more players will want to take advantage of the market, and that means an increased number of orders and market activity. These are all good things, but regrettably as an order gets undercut or outbid, a player is forced to cancel the order entirely and must re-upload it onto the market with the altered price. And that means more often as more players join.

Doing so is simply a hassle when a player has dozens of market orders to observe. There's simply no logical explanation as to why players cannot update or modify already existing orders.

Proposal #2: "Bookmarking" items on the market

With literally hundreds of different items becoming available on the market, keeping track of all of them could prove difficult. If players had the ability of "bookmarking" various items they'd like to keep track of, it could be a big help with boosting the usability of the interface. The bookmark or quickbar tab could simply be placed next to the other 4 tabs that already exist in the window as well. This ensures the interface doesn't get too clunky, and it allows easy access to the bookmarks themselves.

Proposal #3: A transaction window with more information

With potentially hundreds of different transactions occurring in a given day, it can get pretty difficult at times to keep track of all the information. It would be nice if players could filter through the information to get a better idea on specifics.

For instance, let's say you place a buy order for 2000 small armor-piercing bullets. As the order gets filled, your transaction window does not inform you of the purchase. You'll have no idea it's being filled if you log off. All the information you're given is how much you payed to place the original order. Even the notification in the bottom right corner provides no information. It simply informs you a purchase was made, but not the amount or price. That's it.

In another instance, if you tend to move about and sell items in many different terminals, you would have no idea where something is being sold. All you know is that something sold, but you have no clue where. Being able to know the location of an item that was purchased or sold would be a big help.

The ability to filter through all the different transactions made would also prove useful. It would be nice if I could cut the "useless" transactions such as assignment reward or transaction tax, and only see the information I choose to view.

Most importantly, the ability to "reload" the transactions window, so one does not have to open and close it to get an updated look at their transactions, would also be a boon.

Proposal #4 - Filtering via All Item Categories

A rather simple proposal. When filtering through the market looking for a particular item, it would be nice to be able to search through all categories instantaneously, rather than having to click on them individually.

Proposal #5 - An in-game calculator and notepad

Being able to jot down notes to save for later, as well as performing simple or complex math calculations for Mech stats, profits, and costs while staying in game would also be awesome.

These are only a few of the additions the Devs could make to the market interface. These changes wouldn't even make the windows clunkier, but they make them more user-friendly, and that is very important.

What do you think? Flame away!

Re: Crucial market features needed. Please read.

/Agreed

Proposal #1 is needed very urgently.

The rest are great features and also needed, but having to repost every market order just for a .01 NIC change is an extreme hassle.

Re: Crucial market features needed. Please read.

I agree. Good suggestions!

Re: Crucial market features needed. Please read.

+1 on proposal #1.

Even though it can get into a tedious outbid/refresh war, essentially choosing where to direct such energies with multiple buy/sell orders is what market pvp is all about!

Re: Crucial market features needed. Please read.

Agree. Great ideas.  Should be posted in Feature discussion and requests forum though.  wink

The Enclave - No drama!  No prisoners!

6 (edited by Neoxx 2010-12-14 07:53:52)

Re: Crucial market features needed. Please read.

1:  Updating should be added, but there needs to be a fee associated with doing it.
The Game
2:  Yes.  Should be easily enough added since we already have the "starring" function on extensions.

I am Perpetuum's Most Dangerous Agent and an equal opportunity troll.
-> You just lost The Game <-
"Perpetuum sounds like a something I would stick up my *** for enjoyement." -Kaito Kurusaki

Re: Crucial market features needed. Please read.

Ok, I am going to be a bit controversial.

#2, #3 + #4 I agree with.

However, I disagree on the first.  First of all just because 0.01 isk wars are the way things work on EvE, doesnt mean it has to be the case here - I know you didnt make this point but im just putting it out there anyway.  Do we really want the 0.01 isk wars of EvE?

Whilst it may be a hassle to have to re-do the entire order , remember that everyone else is burdened by the same risks.  If orders can be changed quickly and cheaply then the market is just ruled by whoever can stare at the market for longer than the other guy.

However, I have an alternative suggestion.

I think you should be able to modify existing orders quickly and easily as suggested.  But not without a cost.  Modifying an existing order should cost the transaction fee (or most of the transaction fee) each time. 
This will make it a viable market tactic to PROPERLY undercut.  Not by 0.01 NIC to see who has the most time to spend monitoring their orders, but by a larger margin to discourage competitors.

(Ok, just seen the last guy suggesting the same.. heh smile   )

Re: Crucial market features needed. Please read.

Tawn wrote:

Do we really want the 0.01 isk wars of EvE?

I don't really find these really interesting, as most of the time the winner is the one who stay watching the market for the longest time.

I think the one to won these wars should be the one able to reduce the price the most, even if he can't stay connected for all his selling time.

I'd suggest a system of reverse auctions, for the sell orders: when putting a sell order, you put an actual selling price and a minimum price. If someone put a sell order with a minimum price higher than yours but lower than your actual selling price, your selling price is automatically adjusted to 0.01 NIC less than the other minimum price, effectively undercutting him. Think of a reverse ebay. This would automate most of those 0.01 NIC wars.

(and that suggestion would still work with a consequent fee to adjust your prices)

Re: Crucial market features needed. Please read.

id suggest asking a gm to move this to the "suggestion" part of the forum if you would like them to be considered and added to the game.

Re: Crucial market features needed. Please read.

Tawn wrote:

Ok, I am going to be a bit controversial.

#2, #3 + #4 I agree with.

However, I disagree on the first.  First of all just because 0.01 isk wars are the way things work on EvE, doesnt mean it has to be the case here - I know you didnt make this point but im just putting it out there anyway.  Do we really want the 0.01 isk wars of EvE?

Whilst it may be a hassle to have to re-do the entire order , remember that everyone else is burdened by the same risks.  If orders can be changed quickly and cheaply then the market is just ruled by whoever can stare at the market for longer than the other guy.

However, I have an alternative suggestion.

I think you should be able to modify existing orders quickly and easily as suggested.  But not without a cost.  Modifying an existing order should cost the transaction fee (or most of the transaction fee) each time. 
This will make it a viable market tactic to PROPERLY undercut.  Not by 0.01 NIC to see who has the most time to spend monitoring their orders, but by a larger margin to discourage competitors.

(Ok, just seen the last guy suggesting the same.. heh smile   )


I'm gonna have to disagree with you there.  Making it more of a hassle to change the price of an order will not stop an industrialist from watching the market like a hawk and changing the price.

If you get rid of fractions of a NIC, then people will simply keep the price lower by one whole NIC.  It won't change anything at all.  Some people simply have more time to spend playing a persistent MMO and will choose to spend that time making sure that their stuff sells.

The best way to help the problem is to make it so that players can't change the price of any single market order for five or more minutes.  That way the price war can't simply be back and forth every second for an hour until people's fingers bleed.

Re: Crucial market features needed. Please read.

Hourglass wrote:

The best way to help the problem is to make it so that players can't change the price of any single market order for five or more minutes.  That way the price war can't simply be back and forth every second for an hour until people's fingers bleed.

That timer is already in place as well, as you cannot cancel an order until 10 minutes have passed. Thanks for the additional suggestions guys, they're really good.

I'll see if I can find a GM to move this into the proper forum.

Re: Crucial market features needed. Please read.

I agree with all the suggestions and they should be given due consideration.  Obviously the DEV's have bigger fish to fry like, letting customers use a freakin' Visa card.   Good suggestions all though. 

I would only add one.

* Allow a greater number of initial transactions with zero skills (five seems reasonable) and allow the number of transactions to increase by more than one per skill level.  In just a few months I believe the market will be in full swing compared to the limited use it currently sees and players will need to have the ability to be able to buy and sell a huge number of items.

Re: Crucial market features needed. Please read.

+1

/Signed

It would also be nice to know when you buy stuff off the market who it was bought from, or vice-versa, if someone buys stuff from you, would be nice to know who bought it.

Proposal #1 is needed very urgently. Need to have the ability to modify your market orders without having to take them off the market and put them back on.

Re: Crucial market features needed. Please read.

Also...

On the price histograph, it would be really nice to label the axis a bit better... I can see the low and the high price but a few sub-divisions would really be nice

And...

Volume... the price history is good but not really meaningful without having a general idea of the volume being bought and sold at those prices...

Re: Crucial market features needed. Please read.

Yea none of these features are crucial at all.

Re: Crucial market features needed. Please read.

I think what the markets really need are some kind of limit orders.  Instead of making an order of 1 million Titan ore for .61 each, we should be allowed to make a limit order of 1 million titan ore for up to .7 each.

That would make the markets much more efficient than they are now.  The way buy orders are like .6 and the sell orders are like 1.2 are ridiculous.

Re: Crucial market features needed. Please read.

+1 Agree

Re: Crucial market features needed. Please read.

I'd settle for an in-game calculator.  tongue

Re: Crucial market features needed. Please read.

Bastian Croft wrote:

I'd settle for an in-game calculator.  tongue

I totally forgot about that! Adding it to my OP. big_smile

Re: Crucial market features needed. Please read.

Flint Ironstag wrote:

...
I'll see if I can find a GM to move this into the proper forum.

sorry, im no GM wink
*moved*

Forum Rule #5
Pyramid quoting, quoting excessive amounts of text or quoting without any senseful reply is forbidden. Only quote that is necessary to show what your reply refers to.

Re: Crucial market features needed. Please read.

All but #5. I'd like #1 sooner than any of the others though.

Re: Crucial market features needed. Please read.

Bumpage for importance! *probably debatable smile*

Re: Crucial market features needed. Please read.

@Baldy - buy/sell limit orders are a great idea

It would be REALLY helpful to be able to see some kind of volume indicator on the graph (hourly, daily, rolling/moving average whatever you think is appropriate depending on how much transparency you want to provide but seriously any indication would help)

and what is going on with the Y-Axis? A seemingly random high point with 10 subdivisions? can we settle for powers of 10 (10, 100, 1000....) and keep the 10 subdivisions. 

I can understand arguments both for and against transparency but I'd like a little more historical info.

"You're living in a parallel universe." ~Syndic

Re: Crucial market features needed. Please read.

Baldy, you suggested limit orders would decrease the bid/ask spread? Why do you think so?

I was under the impression a limit order simply acted as a "execute at market price" buy or sell, moving through the order book until it has shifted the price to its limit, at which point it becomes an ordinary buy or sell order at the limit price.

We can do that now by a pair of a buy followed by a buy order, or a sell followed by a sell order; I don't see how adding a special-purpose mechanism would tighten the bid/ask spread.

25 (edited by Thierry 2010-12-31 00:24:09)

Re: Crucial market features needed. Please read.

Golden One wrote:

Yea none of these features are crucial at all.

The price graph badly needs a fix, because it is near useless right now. Ideally, mousing over the line would show time and price and their respective axis. Barring that, and much simpler, another screen listing time, prices and volume would do the trick.

We already have limit orders, and they work fine, except there is no reason to make it more difficult to cancel them or change limit prices.