Topic: Economy driven for players = industrial vs crafting system

Hi,

I don't understand why this game ( with incredible potential ) does not have an serious "industrial" aspect in front of the crafting system that has.

What the difference?

Crafting system - Like other games is based on kill and kill npcs, so you need a char able to kill npc

Industrial economy - All you need to fabricate items can be obtained gathering or doing some tasks with specific skills, you don't have to kill npcs ( is not a "Diablo" game )

I have testing fabrication system and ...

- If you like to build for example a light robot, has two options

1) Increase your "killing" skills, do missions, and get reward, with some patience you obtain enough money, and buy

2) Gathering resources:
   - pick a lot of mineral B, in ratio of 30 - 40 ores -> 1 refined ore, you have to gather a lot.
   - pick a lot of mineral C, ....
   - pick a little of mineral D
   - Take your killing robot a kill everything you see, to obtain frangments and decoders
   - invest XX amount of money to build a CT, pay a big fee
   - use and LOST your CT to build, paying your fee
   - obtain the result

With system 2) you have to do more task a invest more money than simple killins npc, this option involves that you have to kill npcs, so why you are useing this option?, ... at the end you have to pay more.

So, the choice is evident, option 1), this is the reason because i think there is no real "Industrial system". Option 2) let you explore other game mechanics but is not useful.


Thanks and sorry for my bad english.

Regards !
Khendras

Re: Economy driven for players = industrial vs crafting system

you know, that stuff you buy for NIC on the market are mostly built by other player.

only light bots are seeded.

but the t1 market (where noobs should be) consists mostly of "loot sold by combat agents and bought by vet industrials to upgrade it to higher tier tech"

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Economy driven for players = industrial vs crafting system

How crafting actually works in Perp:

0) Run training missions to get all the equipment you'll need to start gathering and building.
1) Run transport missions to earn NIC
2) Artifact Scan to find Decoders, or use your mission NIC to buy them from the market
3) Run Industrial missions for NIC and reputation (Needed for Refining).4)
4) Mine and harvest materials
5) Buy ammo and/or charges from the market in lots of 1000
6) Reverse engineer ammo/charges with Decoders from artifact scanning
7) Sell items on market

New players can do industrial without ever undocking in a combat bot.

As you get more NIC and better skills, Indy's can start making bots and modules for the market. But low market activity makes it a tough business, made harder that everyone is competing together in the same market; 600k EP indy players can make things much faster and cheaper then 60k indy players.

The game simply needs more new players, which will revitialize the market, it doesn't need a change to the crafting system.

In my opinion, I would suggest new players go for combat/NPC farming at this time, the plasma reward is a fixed sell price, and doesn't depend on player market demand.

Alternately, as an industrial player you can social network with other new players and find a combat player that is willing to farm npc's, and you can provide ammo and hauling, in exchange for fragments and decoders.

Re: Economy driven for players = industrial vs crafting system

arga wrote:

1) Run transport missions to earn NIC

Good advice, but why transport missions?.

RIP PERPETUUM

Re: Economy driven for players = industrial vs crafting system

They don't need decoders like the industrial missions do.

Re: Economy driven for players = industrial vs crafting system

If its just for the NIC, I would do mining or scanning missions, but was wondering if transports was still a viable route for new players, NIC wise.

RIP PERPETUUM

Re: Economy driven for players = industrial vs crafting system

they only need you to have a castel with shields and the repective extensions (enMngm, shield, navigation, relation) to make money wink

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Economy driven for players = industrial vs crafting system

hi guys !!

Thanks a lot for your answers but:

1.- Scan artifacts is good, but introduce a random reward to people who like to craft, after scans, you can not predict what kind of decoder will you obtain, for example.

2.- Killing npc's to obtain decoders and other non-haverstable industrial components, simply makes the industrial "sphere" a function of kill npcs

Please, i don't asking to "revolutionize" the system, simply provide a way to obtain all crafting materias "ALL" without dependencies of "random percentage of scaning" or "random percentage of killing".

thank yout for your effort in this incredible game !!!

Regards !

P.D.: Sorry again for my probably bad-english !!


Khendras

Re: Economy driven for players = industrial vs crafting system

1. Mine something
2. Sell it
3. Buy whatever you can't mine for crafting
4. ?????
5. TONS OF ICE!!!!

Have a productive day, runner!
R.I.P. Chenoa, you'll never be forgotten.
DEV Zoom: Line, sorry, I was away for christmas.
http://perp-kill.net/?m=view&id=252086

Re: Economy driven for players = industrial vs crafting system

I do agree though that Decoders shouldn't be mainly gained from Scanning, Buying or gained through random drops of NPC kills. I would much prefer them to have to be Manufactured, as it would fit more in the line of Manufacturing. Alot of people i know from Eve who mine, HATE doing any form of Missions, all they do is Mine, and Manufacture ***.

I just think if someone like that were to come into Perpetuum, with the interest to get into the Industrial side of the game, will be kinda off putting for them once they find out they need to start Pew Pewing some NPC's. I don't really call mining "Farming" because you know what you are getting when you Mine, but i would put having to grind Mobs for Decoders into that category, which is kinda where Perp shouldn't be in my opinion.

Re: Economy driven for players = industrial vs crafting system

Look, in a common situation you don't need to shoot stuff if you're a crafter/miner - everything you can't mine/produce you just buy on market (decoders, kernels, etc.) Thing is - that market is a little...dead these days. Still, noone can't stop you to put buy orders.

You may ask now: "ok but where I'll get my money then". The answer is - mine/harvest resources and sell 'em on market to get some cash.

Have a productive day, runner!
R.I.P. Chenoa, you'll never be forgotten.
DEV Zoom: Line, sorry, I was away for christmas.
http://perp-kill.net/?m=view&id=252086

Re: Economy driven for players = industrial vs crafting system

Line wrote:

Look, in a common situation you don't need to shoot stuff if you're a crafter/miner - everything you can't mine/produce you just buy on market (decoders, kernels, etc.) Thing is - that market is a little...dead these days. Still, noone can't stop you to put buy orders.

You may ask now: "ok but where I'll get my money then". The answer is - mine/harvest resources and sell 'em on market to get some cash.

But with a low population, and as you say the Market is kinda hard at the moment, mainly due to that, if people don't Grind for Kernels or Decoders, then as the game picks up, if more people that i described came into the game, then there would be more demand for these Purchases with not enough on the Market to supply them with. Which in the end will lead them to either leave, or be forced to Grind so they can enjoy the Aspect that they prefer.

13 (edited by Celebro 2012-10-04 15:00:15)

Re: Economy driven for players = industrial vs crafting system

N0 Clue wrote:
Line wrote:

Look, in a common situation you don't need to shoot stuff if you're a crafter/miner - everything you can't mine/produce you just buy on market (decoders, kernels, etc.) Thing is - that market is a little...dead these days. Still, noone can't stop you to put buy orders.

You may ask now: "ok but where I'll get my money then". The answer is - mine/harvest resources and sell 'em on market to get some cash.

But with a low population, and as you say the Market is kinda hard at the moment, mainly due to that, if people don't Grind for Kernels or Decoders, then as the game picks up, if more people that i described came into the game, then there would be more demand for these Purchases with not enough on the Market to supply them with. Which in the end will lead them to either leave, or be forced to Grind so they can enjoy the Aspect that they prefer.

Wel,l if there is more demand let's say decoders ( which u can get artifacting, no shoot stuff) more players will do it to earn easy NIC. Meanwhile if you only want to do 1 aspect of the game, which is in fact boring doing the same stuff all the time, my best bet atm is join a corp that requires indy characters which actually is high in demand.

RIP PERPETUUM

Re: Economy driven for players = industrial vs crafting system

N0 Clue wrote:

But with a low population, and as you say the Market is kinda hard at the moment, mainly due to that, if people don't Grind for Kernels or Decoders, then as the game picks up, if more people that i described came into the game, then there would be more demand for these Purchases with not enough on the Market to supply them with. Which in the end will lead them to either leave, or be forced to Grind so they can enjoy the Aspect that they prefer.

Yes, sure, but you know what? You can't really balance the game to fit low population issues, you should be oriented on common situations instead.

However, I do agreed with you in one thing - current kernels research system sucks.

Have a productive day, runner!
R.I.P. Chenoa, you'll never be forgotten.
DEV Zoom: Line, sorry, I was away for christmas.
http://perp-kill.net/?m=view&id=252086

15 (edited by Kaldenines 2012-10-05 00:03:21)

Re: Economy driven for players = industrial vs crafting system

Wait, the game is balanced for a high population?

Edit: there's somebody balancing this game?

+1
-Confucius

Re: Economy driven for players = industrial vs crafting system

It's not balanced for high population, the devs thought since they are making a sandbox MMO they should make it easy for solo player instead:P

RIP PERPETUUM

17 (edited by Line 2012-10-05 05:26:24)

Re: Economy driven for players = industrial vs crafting system

Excuse me, which part exactly is easy for solo player?

Have a productive day, runner!
R.I.P. Chenoa, you'll never be forgotten.
DEV Zoom: Line, sorry, I was away for christmas.
http://perp-kill.net/?m=view&id=252086

Re: Economy driven for players = industrial vs crafting system

Celebro wrote:

Wel,l if there is more demand let's say decoders ( which u can get artifacting, no shoot stuff) more players will do it to earn easy NIC. Meanwhile if you only want to do 1 aspect of the game, which is in fact boring doing the same stuff all the time, my best bet atm is join a corp that requires indy characters which actually is high in demand.

Well first off, Industry isnt just "1 thing" it is several things that might all aim in 1 direction, but it requires several things to be done to achieve. It's all well and good if you find it boring to just aim for 1 Goal, but for others it is very interesting. Playing the Market, or Manufacturing your, or your Corporations Modules, Bots ect, is 1 of the most complicated aspects of any Industry reliant games.

As for people will farm for Decoders if they are in high demand to earn easy NIC, well first off, they are in demand at the moment [as we speak there are only 7 Decoders on the Market], and no 1 is farming. Secondly  people won't go out and farm for them, there are many other ways to earn much more NIC alot quicker. Decoders don't really sell for a great deal in the long run, so it's going to be time wasted, or the industry would just get greedy and start charging ridiculous prices for them, which would also result in the Industrialists being forced to farm for them themselves.

I also understand that they can also be acquired through Artifact Scanning, which in my original post in this topic i stated that i don't believe it should be done through either way.

Re: Economy driven for players = industrial vs crafting system

I don't think someone ever farm decoders, ppl just farm plasma or kernels or tiered stuff and are taking decoders just as an additional bonus. That doesn't mean they have no value, no, sir - with decoders blacksmith giving an ability to combine them, decoders of all levels are pretty useful and valuable. Corporations, regardless of their size, just store them to supply their own crafting, hardly to sell some. So only way for decoders to get on markets - is a lonely wolfs that are trying to get some cash - and we have low of them these days.

So again, small world and low population causes market and industrialists to suffer.

Have a productive day, runner!
R.I.P. Chenoa, you'll never be forgotten.
DEV Zoom: Line, sorry, I was away for christmas.
http://perp-kill.net/?m=view&id=252086

Re: Economy driven for players = industrial vs crafting system

Which is why I believe they should be gained in other forms, like Manufactured. It would atleast eliminate the need to Grind them due to a Market that just can't supply them.

Kernels on the other hand.... is a completely different topic in its own lol.

Re: Economy driven for players = industrial vs crafting system

industry in perpetuum is one of the most complex systems that you can find in games.
with that complexity you have to let go of the idea that you will be able to do everything on your own. even more on one account. this crafting system is ment that you need multible professions.

the production itself are 3 professions that interact with each other. and there is no research or resource gathering included.

if you want to build items for the market then mass production is the thing you should aim for. mabe have a litte in reverse engineering to be able to craft some basic CTs.

you can produce every bots, t1, ammo and a few other things without prototyping because you can reverse engineer these items directly to CTs without prototyping them.
when it comes to T2, T3 and T4 items then you need prototypes.

so you have 2 options for this: first is look yourself for a prototyper where you can buy them. that would be the logical thing.
the harder way would be to go for research and prototyping yourself. but prototyping is a very EP expensive profession as mass production is. so starting with both might be very inefficient. also as it was pointed out already research requires combat, and a lot of time. getting the kernels for your research is the one long term goal in this game. if you want to do that you have to bring a lot time and endurance. if that is not your thing then you might want to skip on that.

the thing that will only be the bottleneck in production are the resources. so you can either go for mining/harvesting yourself, or buy the stuff from the market. last wone will be a bit harder atm. same for decoders. they are plenty of decoders ingame but nobody bothers to sell them atm because you dont realy get much out of it. if you need some you can contact me and i sell you a few (or a few more). but thats also a thing that you should not bother to get on yourself. if you have a corp or a friend who does pve then you should have enough supply.

also my guide will help you a lot here. i just reworked the industry overview part a bit to show a bit more complexity. i might upload that later or in the next days.
http://forums.perpetuum-online.com/topi … perpetuum/

Re: Economy driven for players = industrial vs crafting system

IMO, resources are LOT easier to get than a kernels for high-level equipment so they are prolly NOT a bottleneck. Prototypes market, on other hand, was never even close to alive, mostly alliance deals etc.

As a solo crafter, you'll produce some t1-t2, maybe t3 later most of time. Unfortunately, there is not that much demand on them as t4 stuff. Robots production may be a goal for a beginner crafter, however, prices aren't that much competitive.

Have a productive day, runner!
R.I.P. Chenoa, you'll never be forgotten.
DEV Zoom: Line, sorry, I was away for christmas.
http://perp-kill.net/?m=view&id=252086

Re: Economy driven for players = industrial vs crafting system

Line wrote:

IMO, resources are LOT easier to get than a kernels for high-level equipment so they are prolly NOT a bottleneck. Prototypes market, on other hand, was never even close to alive, mostly alliance deals etc.

As a solo crafter, you'll produce some t1-t2, maybe t3 later most of time. Unfortunately, there is not that much demand on them as t4 stuff. Robots production may be a goal for a beginner crafter, however, prices aren't that much competitive.

So if I put protos up for under mineral value your still not going to buy??
WHAAAA!

Its coming, soon.

The Gifter
Top  Killer 2013  - 01: 334 -- 17 -- 317  : Merkle
Top  Killer 2012  - 01: 027 -- 472 -- 445 : Merkle

Scarab Kill Count - 13

Re: Economy driven for players = industrial vs crafting system

It's not "ppl don't want to buy", it's "ppl don't want to sell' mostly big_smile

Have a productive day, runner!
R.I.P. Chenoa, you'll never be forgotten.
DEV Zoom: Line, sorry, I was away for christmas.
http://perp-kill.net/?m=view&id=252086

Re: Economy driven for players = industrial vs crafting system

for me, the market window got even less usable then before.

now when i select "show only available", it makes no difference, since everything is npcs seeded.
For me, one of the reasons why there is no market -> the Interface is crap.

yes, it has one advantage - its so complicated that its hardly bot-able big_smile

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear