Re: Bridging the new player gap (brainstorming session)

Annihilator wrote:

Trial time + starting ep + amazon EP = enough EP to get adv. robotics lvl4 and industrial robot lvl8 -> Riveler unlocked.

Even worse I guess. Just buy a few ICE's and you're all set as a Riveler miner from day one. I don't see the reward or progression in this 2 features combined.

RIP PERPETUUM

Re: Bridging the new player gap (brainstorming session)

Celebro wrote:
Annihilator wrote:

Trial time + starting ep + amazon EP = enough EP to get adv. robotics lvl4 and industrial robot lvl8 -> Riveler unlocked.

Even worse I guess. Just buy a few ICE's and you're all set as a Riveler miner from day one. I don't see the reward or progression in this 2 features combined.


hmm no new player should be able to do that from day 1. riv should be at least a month into playing the game.

True Pros make a Podcast to influence the Devs minds, 
The rest of you guys are Hacks tongue

PS. I got my Highways & stopped playing b4 they came in & have never used them! ...... Irony much ? tongue

Re: Bridging the new player gap (brainstorming session)

DEV BoyC wrote:

Guys, we heard you.
EP selling in any form has been canned. The idea is bound to raise its head from time to time, but we got the picture.
However we'd still like to give a larger incentive for players to go from a trial account to the first subscription - what are your thoughts on giving a bunch of EP to players subscribing from a trial account? Of course however much this EP is, it'd be retroactively granted to all accounts that have ever subscribed.

As for ICE, it's in the works.


Depends how much- looking at it from the point of someone who gets the Kickstarter- that's 20,000 EP From scratch, another 20,000 from the Kickstarter and then however much (10,000? 20,000?) from your first subscription- that's over 40,000 for someone who could literally have been in-game less than an hour.

As a first-subscription boon, sure. It would, at the least, cheer up those of us who haven't got access to the Kickstarter still (not even going to start on that again)- but as said, it still depends on the amount. I'm taking a wild stab at it being 20,000- which would mean with the above taken into account we're looking at 60,000 EP for a "new" player. Everyone else has well spelled out their feelings on that kind of EP being thrown around by a new player- though I would say in fairness at least you can backtrack and re-do your mistakes over a period of time.

However- if we're looking at the introduction of ICE as well- technically a new player could jump almost immediately into a ridiculously-above-tier 'Bot and never even look at the first couple of tiers of 'Bot- thereby wasting the effort of having them in the first place.

Remedies for this kind of thing could be worked out- however restricting players from the get-go is a dangerous thing- most will be confused with a hint of enthusiasm for something new- but having to slog through a series of "training days" (so to speak) where there is a limit placed on them would drive them away. A balance has to be sought.

Personally, I don't give a monkeys' whatnots what gets decided upon- it's fair to say all the "experienced" players and Vets' will be up in arms against more potential EP-Gain from little to no effort, which is fair enough and I understand the viewpoint. I also understand newer players that get a quick handle on things being frustrated by having to wait for EP to accumulate in order to get what they're after- which you get in just about every game anyway.

To the point though- I don't see a problem with a "First Sub EP-Boost" or such- whether this is in the form of a lump sum or 15 days of accelerated EP gain (say, 2 points per minute instead or similar)- it all depends on how much EP we're talking. I wouldn't mind some more coming my way but then, unlike a great number of people iv'e seen- I don't run more than one account. Call it silly or not that expensive, but I personally don't enjoy playing Perpetuum on several clients. I did it with EVE for a while and it was alright for mining- but then I enjoy getting out and actively "DOING" something.

I say to hell with it- Go for it. ICE is already in the works which is great- let's see some form of EP with the first Sub- if nothing else it will encourage new players to join. Nevermind that many will at least get most of what they could possibly want in the way of extensions with all the EP floating about.

104 (edited by Rex Amelius 2012-09-12 03:08:07)

Re: Bridging the new player gap (brainstorming session)

Celebro wrote:

There goes arganos and combat lights, just throw away noob bots for a week use. Way to throw a 1/4 of the game content in the first week of playing.

You're worried about making the argano and other lights useless? The game is way ahead of you on that one. Even if the argano does have a roll in this game it's currently only in the first few weeks. So by "throw away noob bots" you mean throw away three weeks of practice in bots you'll never use again, I don't think that is a very good argument against EP acceleration/bonus. But it's a great argument for the fact that many lights have little/no use in the game and need to be re-evaluated.

EDIT: I don't mean to pick on you specifically, Celebro, but you happen to state concisely what many others have been arguing.

This is a long term game, and anyone who plays more than a month will be out of light bots regardless. What difference does is make if they skip that first useless month of learning the ins an outs of useless bots?

  • Fix lights for long term effectiveness.

  • Give the month extra EP on subscription, one way or another.

Also, @Anni I did one reset for Rex Amelius and I'd never reset again, for this account. But I would love to lose some useless EP here and there. Either way my point was for the community, not necessarily myself.

  • EP for noobs then EP for Vets.

  • Resets for noobs, then Resets for Vets.

The objective is more about new subs and a better FEELING for them to 'catch up'. Let them figure out later ...they can never catch up yarr

Sparking to other games

Re: Bridging the new player gap (brainstorming session)

Giving some EP to first time subscribers or giving them a 2-5x boost is a wonderful idea. Both thumbs up.

Re: Bridging the new player gap (brainstorming session)

question regarding "ICE" -> how is it handled ingame.

I really dont want to have something as "expensive" as that in my robot cargo, ever!

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

107 (edited by Celebro 2012-09-12 18:52:07)

Re: Bridging the new player gap (brainstorming session)

Annihilator wrote:

question regarding "ICE" -> how is it handled ingame.

I really dont want to have something as "expensive" as that in my robot cargo, ever!

When it was implemented in Eve you couldn't place it in your ship cargo so it was limited trade for whichever station, then it was changed to be traded between stations. Some got lost on the way but you know, it's big business for the Developers.

Not sure the exact figure, but someone got blown up with around $35k worth of PLEX on them. yikes

RIP PERPETUUM

Re: Bridging the new player gap (brainstorming session)

Not really hard in Perpetuum considering people are 100% safe on alpha islands. If someone wanders to PVP areas and looses it, its their own fault, no need to hold hands that much.

Re: Bridging the new player gap (brainstorming session)

Currently we don't plan any special treatment for ICE items, they will behave exactly like any other item in game.

110

Re: Bridging the new player gap (brainstorming session)

I think the problem is not that new players need to catch up in Ep, but that they need more options as new players. Lower EP options for bots and aspects of the game would go further and have a much greater lasting effect that giving them more EP from the start.

Why?

Because 90 % of new people to the game don’t understand how to use their EP competently until far after their downgrade ability expires.

Introducing new robots that new players can take advantage of with using minimal amounts of EP will slowly open their eyes to the long and delicate balancing game of spending EP … if there are no resets on the horizon then this will be very important to player retention.

Examples of robots that new players could take advantage of:
•    Assault Class Mining robot
•    Light class support robot (in armor repair or energy transfer)
•    Glider light and assault class combat robots (less guns but faster than walking cousins)
•    Light (Scout class) robots with bonus to target marking & Detection
•    Light class hauler ( req indy 1,  40 U capacity)

These are just a few,  but the inventory of useable robots must be increased dramatically soon for the game to thrive and support massive amounts of new players.

Tux ~ Kill the messenger, he was part of it all along.
Euripides ~ Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head.
Bertrand Russell ~ War does not determine who is right - only who is left.

Re: Bridging the new player gap (brainstorming session)

Tux's Post defines what would make this game 100 Percent more funner, yes funner.

Do that and this will be one step toward success.

The Gifter
Top  Killer 2013  - 01: 334 -- 17 -- 317  : Merkle
Top  Killer 2012  - 01: 027 -- 472 -- 445 : Merkle

Scarab Kill Count - 13

112 (edited by Annihilator 2012-09-12 21:27:52)

Re: Bridging the new player gap (brainstorming session)

tux's post misses one thing:

the prerequisites for MECHS should be adjusted accordingly. the best spectrum of choices below mech class doest help, if its just
1 lvl basic robotics (1200 EP)
+ 1 lvl advanced robotics (420 EP)
+ 4 lvl faction robot conrol (7560 EP)
= 9180 EP total to start your gaming experience in a mech, instead of a light bot.

that you cannot drive it efficiently doesnt matter, since its the same with the assault that you could drive with the same ep invested...

BUT Nerfing mechs isn't an option anyway... It comes down to give bots and mechs a distinct different role with SIMILAR options to specialize (as oppositte from bigger is always better if you can afford it)

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Bridging the new player gap (brainstorming session)

Annihilator wrote:

tux's post misses one thing:

the prerequisites for MECHS should be adjusted accordingly. the best spectrum of choices below mech class doest help, if its just
1 lvl basic robotics (1200 EP)
+ 1 lvl advanced robotics (420 EP)
+ 4 lvl faction robot conrol (7560 EP)
= 9180 EP total to start your gaming experience in a mech, instead of a light bot.

that you cannot drive it efficiently doesnt matter, since its the same with the assault that you could drive with the same ep invested...

BUT Nerfing mechs isn't an option anyway... It comes down to give bots and mechs a distinct different role with SIMILAR options to specialize (as oppositte from bigger is always better if you can afford it)

No Tux didn't miss anything, his points are precise and what this game needs.

The Gifter
Top  Killer 2013  - 01: 334 -- 17 -- 317  : Merkle
Top  Killer 2012  - 01: 027 -- 472 -- 445 : Merkle

Scarab Kill Count - 13

Re: Bridging the new player gap (brainstorming session)

Tux wrote:

I think the problem is not that new players need to catch up in Ep, but that they need more options as new players. Lower EP options for bots and aspects of the game would go further and have a much greater lasting effect that giving them more EP from the start.

Why?

Because 90 % of new people to the game don’t understand how to use their EP competently until far after their downgrade ability expires.

Introducing new robots that new players can take advantage of with using minimal amounts of EP will slowly open their eyes to the long and delicate balancing game of spending EP … if there are no resets on the horizon then this will be very important to player retention.

Examples of robots that new players could take advantage of:
•    Assault Class Mining robot
•    Light class support robot (in armor repair or energy transfer)
•    Glider light and assault class combat robots (less guns but faster than walking cousins)
•    Light (Scout class) robots with bonus to target marking & Detection
•    Light class hauler ( req indy 1,  40 U capacity)

These are just a few,  but the inventory of useable robots must be increased dramatically soon for the game to thrive and support massive amounts of new players.

This is one of the reasons I tirelessly fight for a real role for light bots...

Great post Tux.

Re: Bridging the new player gap (brainstorming session)

Not bad Tux. As we see there are lot of ways the game developing.

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Re: Bridging the new player gap (brainstorming session)

Light hauler will have max ~26,67U capacity smile

Agreed tho. Need more roles/bots/etc and Seraph please.

Re: Bridging the new player gap (brainstorming session)

Annihilator wrote:

tux's post misses one thing:

the prerequisites for MECHS should be adjusted accordingly. the best spectrum of choices below mech class doest help, if its just
1 lvl basic robotics (1200 EP)
+ 1 lvl advanced robotics (420 EP)
+ 4 lvl faction robot conrol (7560 EP)
= 9180 EP total to start your gaming experience in a mech, instead of a light bot.

that you cannot drive it efficiently doesnt matter, since its the same with the assault that you could drive with the same ep invested...

BUT Nerfing mechs isn't an option anyway... It comes down to give bots and mechs a distinct different role with SIMILAR options to specialize (as oppositte from bigger is always better if you can afford it)

Yea, I agree with you. People can skip the lights and assaults alltogether and get into mech very fast. They will then stay in the same mech for god knows how long and the next step will be h-mech. Some rebalancing is definitely needed.

Re: Bridging the new player gap (brainstorming session)

Tux wrote:

•    Light class support robot (in armor repair or energy transfer)

This is light ewar. I rember an old corpmate that used to support even large battles with repair Cam due to sveral reasons.
You are not forced to do ewar in these bots.

Re: Bridging the new player gap (brainstorming session)

Accelerated EP does not in any way replace experience.

If you make this game too easy it will fail, players like the feeling of accomplishing something and overcoming a challenge by skillfull gameplay and planning.

Provide one (1) account reset at 6 months (thereby giving a new player a goal to sub for, a chance to fix Extension mistakes, and valuable game experience)

All orange bots on Alpha 1 takes away all risk. No risk = boring. Boring = cya.  Currently you can do 90% of Alpha 1 activities without npc threat anyways ... the very few beginner missions that essentially require noobs to mine in arhkes next to lvl 2 spawns is simply *** ... those missions need to be changed, not all of Alpha.

Oh, and everything Tux said.

I'm not keen on ICE, simply because I don't think it will bring AC extra money.  As an alternate method to boost nic for players I guess it would work, but nic also is no substitue for experience.

You dont lose players because this game is too harsh, you lose them (partly) because their direction and options are not clear.  While on trial I repeatedly attacked a lvl 2 arbalest - lvl 4 cam spawn that was close to ICS ... why? because it dropped more plasma than the lvl1's and ...OMG it once dropped a t3 LWF that was worth 350 000 nic!!!! I ruled perp that day ... and I must have lost at least 15 bots trying to figure a way to kill that spawn. In the mean time I perfected the delicate balance between kiting and mods helping range, speed, and locktimes.  These are VALUABLE skills to learn, to practice repeatedly ... make sure players need to learn these tactics by giving them content that demands it.

120

Re: Bridging the new player gap (brainstorming session)

Cassius alpha 1s are harmless for a reason is a good thing.   The trade off is lvl 2 facilities not at the same place.  I like it.

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Re: Bridging the new player gap (brainstorming session)

making PVE no-risk-start on will surely improve the carebear <=> PVP player conversion rate.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

122

Re: Bridging the new player gap (brainstorming session)

One of the ideas that I was trying to portray in my post was that new players should not need to spends a lot of EP in order to pilot smaller class robots effectively … if the robot bonuses are done properly you will be able to jump in a light or assault and be effective quickly (not instantly) but quickly .

Of course there will be much room for improvement …..

By the time a trial account runs out the new player should be hooked on the game if not then the game has failed to produce enough incentive to keep playing ..

To many incentive is WOW!!!! look what I can do !!! I wonder what else I can do !?!? 

Its NOT ummmm… well if I wait 60 more days I will finally have the EP to get into that robot ….

Advanced robots should take time to get into I fully agree with that, but at the basic robotics side of the scale there is little to nothing that will excite new players

Tux ~ Kill the messenger, he was part of it all along.
Euripides ~ Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head.
Bertrand Russell ~ War does not determine who is right - only who is left.

123

Re: Bridging the new player gap (brainstorming session)

@ alpha 1 vs alpha 2

Alpha 1 = orange (good)
Alpha 2 = more red than orange (75% red | 25% orange)

good balance...

beta should not be the first place new players see aggressive NPC's

Tux ~ Kill the messenger, he was part of it all along.
Euripides ~ Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head.
Bertrand Russell ~ War does not determine who is right - only who is left.

Re: Bridging the new player gap (brainstorming session)

btw, for the PvE aspect:

since you have found the ultimate way to nerf the efficiency of arkhes for PvP (interference threshold),
can you now revert all other nerfs of it, that where aiming for the same goal but never really worked.

im talking about the CPU/Reactor nerf ages ago to make arkhes unable to fit t4 ewar + medium plates + firearms.

IMHO the interfernce trick is enough (if you add 1 interference to teleporter its perfect)

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

125 (edited by Blackomen 2012-09-14 03:06:37)

Re: Bridging the new player gap (brainstorming session)

Annihilator wrote:

making PVE no-risk-start on will surely improve the carebear <=> PVP player conversion rate.

You smell that? I can swear I smell the strong odor of sarcasm. tongue

The one upside to 1000% (Yes it's over 100%) safe alpha islands is cheaper kernels at least. Not fond of the idea myself, but the devs seem firm in making alpha 1's macroable in every aspect. Can expect small armies of macro miners and macro ratters soon there after the patch. For the love of god... at least lower the rewards there if your going to make it Peace, fluffy puppies and Lolipop land.

PS: I also want to mention a recent(ish) ragequit in General chat. Where someone was "admittedly" macro mining on a alpha 1, came back 6 hours later and ragequit publicly because a roaming spawn had come along and destroyed his 2 termises and 40m nic in materials. Proof that all orange npcs will make this macro heaven.

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