1 (edited by mqx 2012-09-14 15:37:46)

Topic: Breachin a base -- Chaos style

Edit: This has been ruled legitimate. For more details on why and how this works, have a look at the various posts below

So .... how do you get from here http://i.imgur.com/AVfASh.jpg

to here http://i.imgur.com/xyxVPh.jpg ?

If you think it's going to take some work and clever terraforming, you're wrong. Do it like CHAOS does, and just undock from the terminal, check whether you've been automatically teleported into the hostile base. If not, dock up, and rinse and repeat until successful! http://i.imgur.com/Mjg1fh.jpg

The approximate distance that was teleported is roughly 220-250m.
So, is this a feature, a bug .... an exploit?

Re: Breachin a base -- Chaos style

You're going to hate me for this (again), but deep within Perpetuum is (sadly or not) still a 2D game. If you build vertical walls, it doesn't matter if it's 100m or 100km high, the bottom and the top will still be just 1 tile apart from each other.

Re: Breachin a base -- Chaos style

DEV Zoom wrote:

You're going to hate me for this (again), but deep within Perpetuum is (sadly or not) still a 2D game. If you build vertical walls, it doesn't matter if it's 100m or 100km high, the bottom and the top will still be just 1 tile apart from each other.

I see that you have a lot of work ahead. neutral

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4 (edited by Obi Wan Kenobi 2012-09-12 03:19:50)

Re: Breachin a base -- Chaos style

Hunter wrote:
DEV Zoom wrote:

You're going to hate me for this (again), but deep within Perpetuum is (sadly or not) still a 2D game. If you build vertical walls, it doesn't matter if it's 100m or 100km high, the bottom and the top will still be just 1 tile apart from each other.

I see that you have a lot of work ahead. neutral


oh the things would could do if this wasnt the case sad

also i hate the look of these "sheer cliff" TF walls. come on people have a bit of style!

True Pros make a Podcast to influence the Devs minds, 
The rest of you guys are Hacks tongue

PS. I got my Highways & stopped playing b4 they came in & have never used them! ...... Irony much ? tongue

5 (edited by Dreadnaught 2012-09-12 05:29:21)

Re: Breachin a base -- Chaos style

DEV Zoom wrote:

You're going to hate me for this (again), but deep within Perpetuum is (sadly or not) still a 2D game. If you build vertical walls, it doesn't matter if it's 100m or 100km high, the bottom and the top will still be just 1 tile apart from each other.

I think the issue here isn't the height, it's the fact that undocking still sends you past obstacles. Why are you make excuses for the use of exploits? You normally oppose their use, now you support them?

6 (edited by Burial 2012-09-12 06:36:37)

Re: Breachin a base -- Chaos style

sploit! sploiters!

Need image hotlinking..

7 (edited by Industrial Sector 2012-09-12 08:14:02)

Re: Breachin a base -- Chaos style

Dreadnaught wrote:
DEV Zoom wrote:

You're going to hate me for this (again), but deep within Perpetuum is (sadly or not) still a 2D game. If you build vertical walls, it doesn't matter if it's 100m or 100km high, the bottom and the top will still be just 1 tile apart from each other.

I think the issue here isn't the height, it's the fact that undocking still sends you past obstacles. Why are you make excuses for the use of exploits? You normally oppose their use, now you support them?

Issue is that in some special cases exploits are mystically turning in a weak mechanic wink

Re: Breachin a base -- Chaos style

mqx wrote:

So .... how do you get from here http://i.imgur.com/AVfASh.jpg

to here http://i.imgur.com/xyxVPh.jpg ?

If you think it's going to take some work and clever terraforming, you're wrong. Do it like CHAOS does, and just undock from the terminal, check whether you've been automatically teleported into the hostile base. If not, dock up, and rinse and repeat until successful! http://i.imgur.com/Mjg1fh.jpg

The approximate distance that was teleported is roughly 220-250m.
So, is this a feature, a bug .... an exploit?

You know, you can try to do the same with our base. You r welcome.

Re: Breachin a base -- Chaos style

Alexadar wrote:
mqx wrote:

So .... how do you get from here http://i.imgur.com/AVfASh.jpg

to here http://i.imgur.com/xyxVPh.jpg ?

If you think it's going to take some work and clever terraforming, you're wrong. Do it like CHAOS does, and just undock from the terminal, check whether you've been automatically teleported into the hostile base. If not, dock up, and rinse and repeat until successful! http://i.imgur.com/Mjg1fh.jpg

The approximate distance that was teleported is roughly 220-250m.
So, is this a feature, a bug .... an exploit?

You know, you can try to do the same with our base. You r welcome.

I'm not too keen on using exploits.

Re: Breachin a base -- Chaos style

Dreadnaught wrote:
DEV Zoom wrote:

You're going to hate me for this (again), but deep within Perpetuum is (sadly or not) still a 2D game. If you build vertical walls, it doesn't matter if it's 100m or 100km high, the bottom and the top will still be just 1 tile apart from each other.

I think the issue here isn't the height, it's the fact that undocking still sends you past obstacles. Why are you make excuses for the use of exploits? You normally oppose their use, now you support them?

There is no obstacle, that's what I was trying to say. If you put a base right at the bottom of a vertical wall, and the top of the wall is passable, then in the eyes of the undocking mechanism it's perfectly fine.

This is again a feature that I've seen before used for defense as a sort of gate (since it has relation control), noone complained then. Now that someone is using it for attacking, it's suddenly an exploit...

11 (edited by QuantaCat 2012-09-12 11:43:41)

Re: Breachin a base -- Chaos style

Because noone was probably harmed when it was used as a gate by.. whom exactly? Also, it sounds like a very random gate.



aaaaanyhow, I understand that the engine works that way right now, but putting it out there, and saying that it is intended to teleport over walls, why, you might just program in a short range teleport mod, so you can teleport over/through walls.

Im not opposed to the idea, by the way, it would make things interesting big_smile

Re: Breachin a base -- Chaos style

And again, wise Alex coming in with solution: introduce "rally point".
"Rally point" works like similar in RTS games: you must define a point where your grunts..err...corpmates will deploy.
It will define itself automatically after terminal was deployed, or modified by CEO.
Rally point should be passable for each bot to any tile what around a terminal. Any terraforming, what intersect or disrupt this passage from terminal to rally point will be restricted. Any weed will not be able to grow there.

Re: Breachin a base -- Chaos style

QuantaCat: I wasn't saying that this is intended.

Alexadar: if the point is modifiable by the CEO, what stops him to put it on the top of a wall? smile If it should check passability between the rally point and the terminal, which point of the terminal should it take? It can't take the center because that would have the chance to teleport you into the terminal. (Currently the undock area is a thin donut shape.)

14 (edited by mqx 2012-09-12 12:04:20)

Re: Breachin a base -- Chaos style

DEV Zoom wrote:

This is again a feature that I've seen before used for defense as a sort of gate (since it has relation control), noone complained then. Now that someone is using it for attacking, it's suddenly an exploit...

Three questions:

#1 I'd like to discuss this as what it is: a group using a forward base to just teleport over walls. Is this a mechanic that is legitimate? Is this is a mechanic that is wanted? If either of those questions is answered with 'no', something should be done about it. If both answers are 'yes' ..... just give us a device we can shoot (independent from LOS) somewhere and use as a tp target (10, 20, 30m ... or however expensive you'd like it to be). The fact that it was used by 'someone' as a gate shouldnt affect this discussion at all here (i, for one, wasnt aware of it, for example).

#2 Why am I being placed roughly 50-80m, on average, from the terminal when i undock, yet the distance CHAOS could teleport was 220+?

#3 Is it intended that there is almost no (?) minimum distance between terminals of different factions?

Edit: I actually like Alexadar's suggestion. A customisable rally point that can be placed in a 100m circle from the terminal would be quite nice.

Re: Breachin a base -- Chaos style

DEV Zoom wrote:

Alexadar: if the point is modifiable by the CEO, what stops him to put it on the top of a wall? smile

Good question.
Lets restrict the length of the path to 10 or 20 tiles to prevent the thing what you described. In this case, even if you will put a rally point into enemy territory, you already have passage to there and this passage can be guarded by infantry or turrets, so its will be very good change.

DEV Zoom wrote:

If it should check passability between the rally point and the terminal, which point of the terminal should it take? It can't take the center because that would have the chance to teleport you into the terminal. (Currently the undock area is a thin donut shape.)

It should take from each tile around terminal, but not more than one tile. The rally point should lie in radius what is more than terminal radius+1 tile but less than terminal radius+10 (or 20 tiles).



But also, you should remember than the tool what we used is a last offencive tool on this server, because even one man corp can build 300 turret defense, what impenetrable.
I propose to introduce rally point feature with or after artillery toys.

Re: Breachin a base -- Chaos style

mqx:

#1 It's not intended but legitimate, as you can defend yourself against it. And since it's not intended, we have to think about how we solve it.

#2 I think you are still thinking in bee-line here, which is not how this works. The top of the wall can be however far from the terminal if it's only a few tiles apart. (Again, the disadvantage of vertical walls.)

#3 I'm sorry, I didn't get that. Which different factions do you mean?

17

Re: Breachin a base -- Chaos style

#1 Yes, a defense constitutes spamming turrets so they cover every possible angle inside a base. Good design? I dont think so (especially considering how it favours a very specific base design ... the design Chaos has implemented for their base.)

#2 I'm just talking vertical distance here. 2D Distance.

#3 Chaos' first terminal was 1500m from the Nebs terminal. The second was 1000m. Is it possible to go even closer?

Re: Breachin a base -- Chaos style

#1 No, it simply requires you to build a few steps into your vertical wall design so the bottom of it gets further away from the top.

#2 There is no vertical tile distance because there are no tiles inbetween. You have to imagine this looking top-down (or by simply looking at the map).

#3 No, I think it is 1000m.

Re: Breachin a base -- Chaos style

No wait, is it now vertical distance or 2D distance (which is horizontal)? smile

Re: Breachin a base -- Chaos style

DEV Zoom wrote:

#2 There is no vertical tile distance because there are no tiles inbetween. You have to imagine this looking top-down (or by simply looking at the map).

Very interesting. There is, however, a guns vertical angle limitation - how does it work and why a such or similar system can't be implemented to terraforming and stuff?

Re: Breachin a base -- Chaos style

#1 Stop crying to the developers.

#2  Accept the fact you waged war with a corp outside your peak timezone.

#3  Gamma is not designed to be a new alpha playzone with NIC investments risk versus reward for a reason.

#4  Thank you Dev Zoom for clarifying that this is a feature.  Just like standing inside a terraformersbeacon behind a LOS wall.  Making  it impossible to terraform in.

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22 (edited by mqx 2012-09-12 14:05:38)

Re: Breachin a base -- Chaos style

Here's how we deal with things we find questionable:

Just before our base was destroyed, we found a bug. We tested it, discussed it, and thought it'd be clearly exploitative. It would've allowed us to destroy every single base in the game. no matter how many turrets it had, or what kind of tech they were. So, did we go and test it out in the field cuz we could and no one knew about it? Nope, we reported it, and waited ... not using it for a whole month until it finally got patched.

Now, chaos uses mechanics that arent known to most of us. All i'm asking for are definite rulings on their legitimacy, and limitations. If these tactics are being allowed, i think every corp should know about them. hence the detailed discussion of the details here.

Edit, and i did mean vertical distance. the teleport after undocking placed them around 200m vertical (2d) distance. This isnt considering height and was checked using the radar marker.

Re: Breachin a base -- Chaos style

Industrial Sector wrote:

Very interesting. There is, however, a guns vertical angle limitation - how does it work and why a such or similar system can't be implemented to terraforming and stuff?

I'm not aware of a vertical limitation for guns, what makes you think there is one?

Re: Breachin a base -- Chaos style

mqx:
Here's how it works: a standard terminal has a configured radius of 6 tiles, plus a spawning distance of 1 tile. This means that someone leaving the terminal should appear roughly somewhere between 60m and 70m around the center of the terminal. (1 tile= 10m, but only when it's perfectly flat)

Now, this is only the "perfect situation".

If something is blocking the randomly picked tile in that thin donut around the terminal, then the server starts to search for suitable tiles around that tile in a spirallic way. This way it is possible to get past the above mentioned 70m, but this mechanic is necessary to avoid situations where you are unable to leave a terminal due to the environment.

25 (edited by Industrial Sector 2012-09-12 15:02:28)

Re: Breachin a base -- Chaos style

DEV Zoom wrote:
Industrial Sector wrote:

Very interesting. There is, however, a guns vertical angle limitation - how does it work and why a such or similar system can't be implemented to terraforming and stuff?

I'm not aware of a vertical limitation for guns, what makes you think there is one?

Well, I might be wrong (almost 2 years playing) but I'm pretty sure you was unable to shoot things that are higher than you, with even some pop-up message.

edit: higher I mean that angle is 45 or even above