Topic: Bridging the new player gap (brainstorming session)

Hey guys.

With the recent influx of players from Steam Greenlight, we've been faced with a familiar question again: how to give newer players the option to somewhat catch up to older players without 1. making this option mandatory 2. making the game pay to win.

Here are the two ideas we came up with, but before acting on these we'd like to hear your opinions on them.

1. ICE (Integration Cycle Extender)

This idea is one that has been requested many times by many people, we just never got around to implementing it. The ICE would be an ingame, tradable item sold in the Perpetuum webshop that - when consumed - grants one month of gameplay. Basically this is a way for people to legally and securely trade game time with other players for NIC without inflating the value of NIC. This should help new players acquire some starting funds if they feel the need.

2. The EP catch-up game

The other issue new players tend to have besides the lack of funds is the feeling that they can never catch up to older players.  In the past we argued that older players can only be more diverse in their skills, but anyone can easily catch up in a certain area. While this is still true to a certain extent, we realize this may not work forever as the game continuously expands and becomes more complex. This is a tricky question, and most ideas we discussed were shut down by the "this makes the game pay to win" or "this is just like increasing the monthly subscription fee as it introduces a semi-mandatory item to buy each month" arguments.

What we want is a system that enables three things: 1. It keeps the level playingfield intact, 2. It enables new players to somewhat catch up to veterans 3. It still gives veterans an edge
What we came up with is an optional EP booster package players could buy that would grant X amounts of EP (this could possibly tie into the ICE system as well by having an option on what to get when an ICE is consumed) - however the catch is that a player could only get extra EP in such a way until he caught up to Y% of the current maximum EP a player could have (so this would be a rolling limit). For example if the maximum amount of EP any player can currently have is ~1.000.000, these packages couldn't be used if a player is over... say 250.000 EP (25% of the max).

This way new players could catch up to a point, old players would still always be ahead without having to do anything, and a new player would eventually reach the point he's allowed to catch up to without using this option.

We'd like to hear your opinion on these ideas!

Re: Bridging the new player gap (brainstorming session)

DEV BoyC wrote:

2. The EP catch-up game

The other issue new players tend to have besides the lack of funds is the feeling that they can never catch up to older players.


OK i just have to reply to this.... YES THEY CAN CATCH UP. it took me 1 year is to get near god mode Mesmer mk2 skills. i cant go any further! If a new guy wants to catch me he can.
Also those last few lvl9 - 10 skills only give an older player a small boost compared to the amount of ep needed to be saved.


This is a long term game. if we all are l33t with in a few months then you will have a whole massive set of problems on your hands.

New players can be very good at this game. Ep while unlocking new bots will only take you so far. if your a *** a million ep will not be enough smile

True Pros make a Podcast to influence the Devs minds, 
The rest of you guys are Hacks tongue

PS. I got my Highways & stopped playing b4 they came in & have never used them! ...... Irony much ? tongue

Re: Bridging the new player gap (brainstorming session)

1- yah to ICE

2- No to buying EP. EP is only a problem if each upgrade makes the previous one obsolete. Find ways to balance light bots vs heavy by giving more specialized or customizable robot bonus would be a better approach, imo

Re: Bridging the new player gap (brainstorming session)

I too have noticed influx of players too GJ on that DEV's

1.ICE

I feel this is a good edition to the game it something that should of been added like a year ago so +1 to this idea


2. The EP catch-up game

The only thing i can compare this to is eve.....and if a new player started eve with the chance to have 40m~ SP it would give them an "unfair advantage". I dont like the fact a new player could come into game and get himself straight into a mech and not know anything about game mechanics....what to use and what not to use....i feel the way things are with EP atm is fair they start off in a small bot and slowly get higher and higher. The only way i think u could implement this is by doing the "EP booster thing" and make the EP generate at a quicker pace like 1 EP every 10 seconds (capped at 250k) or something along them lines. Then u are still giving them the " learning curve" plus u are giving them the chance to semi "catch up"

Re: Bridging the new player gap (brainstorming session)

Yes we know they can catch up - however the distinct feeling of new players is that they can't, and this is an issue we'd like to address.

Re: Bridging the new player gap (brainstorming session)

1. Ok nice not a bad idea considering I was against a PLEX like system in the past. I am sure there would be a demand for it.

2. No, no and no, there is already a catch up system implemented in the the extension points complexiety mechanics. I don't see the need for the 'pay for EP' no matter what the limitations are.

RIP PERPETUUM

7 (edited by Celebro 2012-09-06 15:44:28)

Re: Bridging the new player gap (brainstorming session)

DEV BoyC wrote:

Yes we know they can catch up - however the distinct feeling of new players is that they can't, and this is an issue we'd like to address.

That's a new player issue, nothing wrong with the game design itself.

RIP PERPETUUM

8 (edited by Gunner 2012-09-06 15:49:17)

Re: Bridging the new player gap (brainstorming session)

Ok so I support ICE.  A similar feature in another game I liked and supported and it moved assets around in the game and did not introduce them from thin air.


2.  Obi is dead on.  You can specialize and do fine.
2b. Another game allowed trading existing accounts for game currency which didnt take away and didn't p2w because the accounts were legit and in game already and well I think you get the point.



Bring in ICE!




2c. The Amazon Kickstarter is just enough EP boost to get a new player doing some stuff. imo

Re: Bridging the new player gap (brainstorming session)

yes i forgot to say ICE is a massive +1

True Pros make a Podcast to influence the Devs minds, 
The rest of you guys are Hacks tongue

PS. I got my Highways & stopped playing b4 they came in & have never used them! ...... Irony much ? tongue

Re: Bridging the new player gap (brainstorming session)

I like the general idea of having some mechanism that helps "Newcomer" to get a bit nearer to older guys, but I dislike an instand EP boost.

I would consider two points mandatory:
1. It should not be possible to bridge the initial learn month concerning EP in a way that gives you instant EP boost. I think it should still be valid, that a new created agent can't control HM in the first 4 weeks in game.

2. It has to be ensured, that there is no point in which an "older" player is worse than a newer player concerning EP.
Eg boost EP by 50k for all below 250k with player with 249k ending with 299k and a player with 251k still having 251k would be a nogo for me.

From these two premises I would rather thinking about a temporary "device" that doubles your EP gain for up to 2 weeks that is useless on agents with more than 200k EP (values of duration, gain factor and max EP could be discussed).

Re: Bridging the new player gap (brainstorming session)

Goffer wrote:

I like the general idea of having some mechanism that helps "Newcomer" to get a bit nearer to older guys, but I dislike an instand EP boost.

I would consider two points mandatory:
1. It should not be possible to bridge the initial learn month concerning EP in a way that gives you instant EP boost. I think it should still be valid, that a new created agent can't control HM in the first 4 weeks in game.

2. It has to be ensured, that there is no point in which an "older" player is worse than a newer player concerning EP.
Eg boost EP by 50k for all below 250k with player with 249k ending with 299k and a player with 251k still having 251k would be a nogo for me.

From these two premises I would rather thinking about a temporary "device" that doubles your EP gain for up to 2 weeks that is useless on agents with more than 200k EP (values of duration, gain factor and max EP could be discussed).

+1

RIP PERPETUUM

12 (edited by Kokomut 2012-09-06 15:51:28)

Re: Bridging the new player gap (brainstorming session)

DEV BoyC wrote:

Yes we know they can catch up - however the distinct feeling of new players is that they can't, and this is an issue we'd like to address.

The system works, that "other game" is the perfect example. 8 years+ yet still attracting and RETAINING new players.

Don't dedicate every expansion towards the end game. Make improvements and addition to mid game contents that offer diversity and more players actually gets to enjoy it. Look at gamma for example, a majority of people can't even enjoy it.

Re: Bridging the new player gap (brainstorming session)

1. I agree with.

2. I think with the kickstarter addition where you already get 20K EP extra, that provides a good basis. You see a lot of diminishing returns as you get more EP, where some people have already maxed out certain areas. I can understand a feeling of being behind as a new player, but I'm unsure if this can't be fixed in ways other then actually giving them EP.
I feel like the problem is more a psychological thing than actual balance issue. However I could be wrong.

14 (edited by Dan 2012-09-06 16:05:02)

Re: Bridging the new player gap (brainstorming session)

Finally!
1st, ICE looks awesome, but please don't whine and wipe stuff when someone will mess with ingame economy (looks at Styx's "fraud") by spending 1k $.
2nd, EP-gain-over-time boost would be better instead of instant-EP pack, because newbies would still have time to learn game's basics. In the end it'd be must buy item for every new player, but who cares you have bills to pay smile
Also I'm not sure if fixed % of oldest vets EP is good move but for now I can't come up with better idea


Edit:
Ad. 2
You could also rebalance skill costs so newbies could get more vital skills up to lvl 5 faster to be sort of in line (since your extension bonuses are messed up (the more you spend the less you get) anyway).

"you're not in an MMO to make friends, you're there to make enemies smile"

Re: Bridging the new player gap (brainstorming session)

Kokomut wrote:
DEV BoyC wrote:

Yes we know they can catch up - however the distinct feeling of new players is that they can't, and this is an issue we'd like to address.

The system works, that "other game" is the perfect example. 8 years+ yet still attracting and RETAINING new players.

Don't dedicate every expansion towards the end game. Make improvements and addition to mid game contents that offer diversity and more players actually gets to enjoy it. Look at gamma for example, a majority of people can't even enjoy it.


this is the real problem in perpetuum, it needs more fluff to fill it out. We have PBS & TFing atm for end game & that will do for a while the main thing is for new players & old players to be able to have fun out side of doing endgame play.
That includes pvp & PVE.  lets be honest the missions are dull & boring even after the changes that have been made.

New missions types are needed are add a degree of randomness for solo & group play. New bots are needed for both pvpers & pve. why? coz we have had the same combat mechs now for over a year & more diversity would be nice.

True Pros make a Podcast to influence the Devs minds, 
The rest of you guys are Hacks tongue

PS. I got my Highways & stopped playing b4 they came in & have never used them! ...... Irony much ? tongue

Re: Bridging the new player gap (brainstorming session)

I would say idea #1 makes sense. You could at least give it a go. Idea #2 however, well, you can't really escape the notion that it's pay to win.

You say both ideas stem solely from the fact that new players have a tough time getting started. I agree. Assignments tend to drain wallets, equipment is hard to find or expensive, and mobs are waiting around every corner to destroy your dreams of completing even a tutorial assignment.

So I'd like to propose that you instead take some time to really create a decent new player experience. Make sure new players can get a properly (tunings, sensor booster) fitted bot just by following the tutorials, include basic ammo on assignments, clear the vicinity of alpha 1 stations of red mobs (not the whole island, and certainly not the roaming spawns), perhaps even rebalance light bots. Make sure players understand to not burn through their EP in the first minute, encourage them heavily to find a corporation, etc.

Keep it mostly to tweaks, for now. Turning back something like idea #2 is not easily done.

17 (edited by Alexadar 2012-09-06 16:11:31)

Re: Bridging the new player gap (brainstorming session)

1. ICE +1
2. No EP boost please. EP system, in my opinion, perfectly reflects the capabilities of robot from player skill. Giving EP boost to newbies, you can meet situation where players have lvl8 extensions, but still sucks coz vets outskilling them.
In other words: veterans know better what to do with EP. Using EP boost, newbies will train +2 level of skills but still suck on battleground.

You have problem with newbies? Fix early game.

My proposal: boost lightbots, so they can be very effective in early game. Dont care about vets.

Re: Bridging the new player gap (brainstorming session)

1.   ICE - Thank you listening.+1

2.  EP is not the root cause f this problem.  The starting problem is the inefficiency of light bots.  When a new player joins the first thing told to them is get into an assault.  Players feel ineffective against veterans because their light bot gets two shotted in pvp.  If supplementing EP is the answer then might as well rename light robot class to cannon fodder don't pilot class.

Steam achievement Unlocked:  Being a Badass
http://www.perp-kill.net/kill/239407
Dev Zoom: I think its time to confess, Ville is my alt
Dev Zoom: Ville can be sometimes so sane it's scary.

19 (edited by Celebro 2012-09-06 16:16:31)

Re: Bridging the new player gap (brainstorming session)

New players, should be aware that there are already ways to catch up using EP wisely and specializing. You should really brainstorm what are the best extensions to make a new player effective quickly, and lower the EP needed for those. (E.g shields)

RIP PERPETUUM

20 (edited by AnniXa 2012-09-06 16:59:48)

Re: Bridging the new player gap (brainstorming session)

Im new to this Game and maybe so i cannot tell so much about it.
I readed that, and infact with that code redeeming the ICE thing is still up and running, since ppl can just change codes to NIC...


When i check a new Game that i found or heard from, one of the first things i do is checking the Store of that Game:
if there is any kind if ingame value that can be paid with Real money then i instantly close the Browser tab and then i am never interested to that game anymore.

Maybe not alot people think so, but i would have not tryed this game when i had seen something else then the montly fee in the store.

My idea how you could maybe get a little bit around that:

Maybe you should include some kind of EP item.
This item can be used to get an amount of EP instantly, lets say for example there would be an item that give you 100EP instantly, and it can be found by killing NPC bots, mining and harvesting and with artifact scanning, so everyone can find them.
The % rate of wich it can be found should be determined by the Actual EP the user ever got in relation to the maximum EP amount a user can get.
so a allmost maxed out user can drop it with a rate of 0.00001 per hour and a fresh user with like under 1k EP maybe with 1 per hour or whatever.

So Players thate are active and often Playing will get a benefit for this and get theyr expansions faster then others, like it is in the most RPG like games.

Also this item could be make Tradeable, high lvl players will pay alot for it, so it opens a way to transfer alot NIC from the Veterans to the new Players also, and new players can decide if they want to use them or sell them.
in this case it should only be tradeable if a player is not on trial anymore, to prevent veterans from making alot of trial accounts for farming of this item.

Thats what i would try to do.

21 (edited by Pirate Immortality 2012-09-06 17:03:49)

Re: Bridging the new player gap (brainstorming session)

Edit: Bah Wrong account.

22 (edited by Blackomen 2012-09-06 17:10:08)

Re: Bridging the new player gap (brainstorming session)

1. Love it, would make buying codes even easier. (And I can manipulate the market yarr )

2. Really bad idea. I see where your coming from with this. You figure this won't make vets lose an edge. Well your wrong. What happens when say I reach 2-4m ep. I have all skills in all combat bots at say level 10. Now random new player comes along and instantly gets 500k-1m ep. He now has "Exactly the same skills I do in any one combat bot." Hence he is just as good as me now, and on day 1. (Or however long it would take.) Obviously I'm a little biased here as the highest ep account in the game. But I genuinely think this is a bad idea, both for us vets, and you as the developers, as whats to keep most new players going when they start the game maxed out in their field of choice? Certainly not the bot grind. (You can get a fully fit heavy mk2 in a week.)

As much as I hate to admit it, it's the goal setting, the... distant finish line in a mmo that keeps people going. Sometimes you have to create your own. I've already pretty much reached every goal there is, so I created my own of 1 trillion NIC. Removing these goals is never a good idea. Especially in a sandbox. Imagine any standard fair themepark mmo, where you "start" the game at max level. Do you really think people would stay interested, let alone paying a sub for long?

Oldest player still in the game. Perpetuum for life.
Original Founder of M2S, may it rest in peace. sad
"Hungarian Math" is defined by the dictionary as "Just like normal math, but where each equation ends by dividing the sum by Potato."
-Shoutout to "Stranger Danger" for the "potato" comment.

Re: Bridging the new player gap (brainstorming session)

1. ICE + 1

2. Instant EP -1

I would rather see you guys give a small EP boost to new accounts for N amount of time rather then buy EP.

John 3:16 - Timothy 2:23

Re: Bridging the new player gap (brainstorming session)

AnniXa wrote:

Im new to this Game and maybe so i cannot tell so much about it.
I readed that, and infact with that code redeeming the ICE thing is still up and running, since ppl can just change codes to NIC...


When i check a new Game that i found or heard from, one of the first things i do is checking the Store of that Game:
if there is any kind if ingame value that can be paid with Real money then i instantly close the Browser tab and then i am never interested to that game anymore.

Maybe not alot people think so, but i would have not tryed this game when i had seen something else then the montly fee in the store.

My idea how you could maybe get a little bit around that:

Maybe you should include some kind of EP item.
This item can be used to get an amount of EP instantly, lets say for example there would be an item that give you 100EP instantly, and it can be found by killing NPC bots, mining and harvesting and with artifact scanning, so everyone can find them.
The % rate of wich it can be found should be determined by the Actual EP the user ever got in relation to the maximum EP amount a user can get.
so a allmost maxed out user can drop it with a rate of 0.00001 per hour and a fresh user with like under 1k EP maybe with 1 per hour or whatever.

So Players thate are active and often Playing will get a benefit for this and get theyr expansions faster then others, like it is in the most RPG like games.

Also this item could be make Tradeable, high lvl players will pay alot for it, so it opens a way to transfer alot NIC from the Veterans to the new Players also, and new players can decide if they want to use them or sell them.
in this case it should only be tradeable if a player is not on trial anymore, to prevent veterans from making alot of trial accounts for farming of this item.

Thats what i would try to do.

What your suggesting is not feasible under one premise the developers can't make money for their game this way.  People have been trading currency/items/teamspeak cybering sessions since I started playing.  This just bumps the economy and promotes end game players reason to pay for his or her subs securely and helps new or old players supplement income for possible things  like gamma and more pvp.

Steam achievement Unlocked:  Being a Badass
http://www.perp-kill.net/kill/239407
Dev Zoom: I think its time to confess, Ville is my alt
Dev Zoom: Ville can be sometimes so sane it's scary.

Re: Bridging the new player gap (brainstorming session)

  1. plex system with different name... why not... im reaching a point where i cannot afford me two accounts forever... (the minimum necessary to play the game IMHO)

    though, you have a huge imbalance ingame on how to make NIC with the gind mechanics. so the more clients you can run at the same time, the easier you can make NIC and pay gametime with multiboxing grind.

  2. the EP boost thingy is a nogo as mentioned several times above.
    Look at the extension and equip progress that new players are going through - as ville pointed out - you start in a light bot, beeing told to get in assault asap, and one week after steam influx started, i saw discussions from those new player about how to afford a tyrannos. Extension-wise that means, after a week they have skipped the first half of the robots of their faction choice, and also the first half of module tiers.
    - basic robotics 5-9 = 34.5k EP (anything above 4 is unnecessary for mech)
    - adv. robotics 0-8 (heavy mech) = 33.6k EP

    so either you make the whole small equip and bot extensions complexity [1] or you start to talk to Alf about why 50% of the game is eye-candy ?

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