76 (edited by Syndic 2012-07-06 15:14:24)

Re: DEV - Player conference

From what I understood, the Developer reasoning behind this change is: Because the range of Hitech turrets is big, if hitech turrets are 1KM away from the teleport they will insta-shot people?

... And it didn't cross anyones brain to try tweaking the range of hitech turrets instead of this fiasco? lol

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Re: DEV - Player conference

1500m is defenetly needed in a usefull base defense.

-1 to nerf turrets

78 (edited by Syndic 2012-07-06 15:24:57)

Re: DEV - Player conference

Why would it be needed? The highest range-fitted heavy mech shoots right about 1000, and needs a target-painter for most of the sub-heavy stuff, with horrible masking ratings so they're easy to hit for the turrets anyway.

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Re: DEV - Player conference

WHAT is the range of high-tech laser anyway?
since there is no buff to increase the COMBAT range of turrets, 1km is enough.

and why would they be able to instapop anything at 1km range? Their detection is 100 rF -> they cannot see ewar mechs or bots for more then 1km. The moment you activate a masking module, with masking spark or high spec ops the turret cannot see you anymore.

this works for most bots (acticve masking) and due to syndicate protection no turret can lock you faster then you can hide behind the buildings around the teleporter.

Standard Ewar Turrets got a range around 625m - dunno about the higher tier ones, but on PTS i didn't notice a great range increase. Ewar Player Mechs can buff their range above 1km.

turrets themself got a masking of 50... even a heavy mech can see them at 1.6km, no painting neccessary unless your in a very big blob.

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Re: DEV - Player conference

Syndic wrote:

... And it didn't cross anyones brain to try tweaking the range of hitech turrets instead of this fiasco? lol

That seems like it would make the most sense, except perhaps the devs are worried that reducing the range of the high tech turrets invalidates the extra cost/research to make them instead of advanced turrets?

To me the idea of being able to insta-pop anyone who jumps onto your island is a little worrying, and expanding the no build zone around the TPs seems like the best solution. Just a shame that it wasn't figured out before the patch really hmm


Besides that, i did have one idea whilst listening to the conference. And it's not fully fleshed out so i expect it to be shot down immediately smile ;

What if you could choose to put your buildings into a sort of 'protected mode' similar to the reinforced mode. Whilst in protected mode buildings cannot be harmed, but they also cannot be used by the owner corp. So if a corp has a timezone with very low playerbase they can put the buildings into protection during that time, and sleep soundly. Obviously there would have to be several limits on the use of protection mode:

1) You can have a building in protected mode for a maximum amount of time (say 24h) and there is a cooldown before it can be used again, either a fixed time (12h?) or proportional to the amount of time it was protected last (50%?)

2) It takes an amount of time to activate/deactivate (30mins or something)

3) Whilst protected ALL functions of a building stop working. So you would be locked out of a protected main terminal and unable to mine with a protected mining tower. I'm not too well versed in how each gamma structure works so this may be impossible. I'm just spitballing here tongue

Basically it would mean that corporations could avoid being alarmclocked and could have a chance to defend on their own terms. They could sleep easy knowing their base will still be there when they wake up.

Anyway there are probably a million problems with what i just said, so fire away smile

Re: DEV - Player conference

Anni, the current range for structures is 500m from teleports. At this range, yes you would be insta-popped upon entrance. The 1000m range is currently suggested instead of a 2000m range. And the 1000m range does not throw away the current CIR defense layout. It still leaves figuring out what to do with 1500m range turrets  ... If those turrets were restricted to not within 2000m of tele, you could still use standard around tele and high tech around a base.

That should make bases harder to kill (good) and teles somewhat defendable but not impregnable (good).

Re: DEV - Player conference

your not instapopped - turrets are NPCs, NPCs ingnore you, as long as your under syndicate protection, which means there is 1 minute + 5seconds for you to think about what to do, or to activate any module that makes you survive (shields ?)

at 500m you cannot terraform much around the teleporter - so a turret there is "out in the open"

i'm ok with the 1km no-build-radius - except for Villes argument in other topic: there should be no colixium spawning in that area either...

Im still trying to get confirmation that ANY turret can even shoot more then 1km...

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Re: DEV - Player conference

as promised in the meeting http://forums.perpetuum-online.com/post/70394/#p70394

Re: DEV - Player conference

Hi tech missle turret is at 750.  Boost nodes give you no bonus to range right?

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Re: DEV - Player conference

scanning the turret will show you that all tiers of laser turrets have the same standard turret laser (625m + 200m falloff) equipped (like npcs all got standard gear on scans). as ammo you can only guess standard medium thermal energy cells (would explain the high damage mod on the turret).
Like NPCs, theres probably an invisible "extension bonus" applied to the turret itsels that makes the higher tier one better then the lower tier one.

stats like interferenence parameters, locking range etc can only be accessed by someone with network access to an already built turret. BUT unless someone tries it out the hard way (as target), there is no way to find out the real range of those turrets with the given information.

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86 (edited by Dazamin 2012-07-06 23:33:55)

Re: DEV - Player conference

Yeah I just listened to the meeting again, I'm still not sure of the exact issue with High Tech turrets and build range, could one of the devs perhaps explain it again?

Is it basically about things becoming very congested around TPs? I'm personally in favour of defences being moved off TPs for reasons of gameplay, but I would like to be clear about the reasons the devs think this specific change is the one that should be made.

Re: DEV - Player conference

*sigh*

You're mixing apples and oranges fellas.

The underlying sentiment from the meeting is that Gamma needs to be more secure and the defenders have to have all the advantages, everything should go into reinforcement because it's a big blow for corporations to lose so much assets... Hello? Why should Gamma suddenly be made safer then Alpha or Beta without any player/asset investment?

Cassius I think underlined the main issue in Perpetuum; we've all had loads of fun playing chess with each other. One side thinks of one thing, other side comes up with something else and the circle goes around. Then the developers stepped in with a rushed idea to make it easier and everything went down the toilet.

Gamma CAN be made as safe as Alpha. But at the moment it requires a lot of NIC investment, a lot of time, a lot of player activity and most importantly a lot of manpower. It requires the defender to put a lot of assets on the line. And that is perfectly fine.

The attacker has the advantages of picking the time and place, the defender has the advantage of home ground, terraforming and over-saturating area with turrets if he wants. TP beacons come into play because the defender has to walk all around the island, the attacker can swap sides relatively easily.

NOTHING should be made cheaper or easier. Even the construction blocks should have been left as they are. Content shouldn't be nerfed so everyone can do it and get welfare epics. Gamma was a long-term goal that is hard to achieve, requiring a lot of political, economical and military planning & execution.

Now a lot of people are lobbying for Gamma to be made safer without them having to risk anything too much. Instead of going towards a healthy direction we're moving to the other extreme. And it's worth noting that the people lobbying have no clue or experience how Gamma works on the live server.

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Re: DEV - Player conference

Dazamin wrote:

Yeah I just listened to the meeting again, I'm still not sure of the exact issue with High Tech turrets and build range, could one of the devs perhaps explain it again?

Is it basically about things becoming very congested around TPs? I'm personally in favour of defences being moved off TPs for reasons of gameplay, but I would like to be clear about the reasons the devs think this specific change is the one that should be made.

Sometimes, when you use the skypephone to complain about some perceived issue, the complain comes and bites you back.

Re: DEV - Player conference

Syndic wrote:

*sigh*

You're mixing apples and oranges fellas.

The underlying sentiment from the meeting is that Gamma needs to be more secure and the defenders have to have all the advantages, everything should go into reinforcement because it's a big blow for corporations to lose so much assets... Hello? Why should Gamma suddenly be made safer then Alpha or Beta without any player/asset investment?

Cassius I think underlined the main issue in Perpetuum; we've all had loads of fun playing chess with each other. One side thinks of one thing, other side comes up with something else and the circle goes around. Then the developers stepped in with a rushed idea to make it easier and everything went down the toilet.

Gamma CAN be made as safe as Alpha. But at the moment it requires a lot of NIC investment, a lot of time, a lot of player activity and most importantly a lot of manpower. It requires the defender to put a lot of assets on the line. And that is perfectly fine.

The attacker has the advantages of picking the time and place, the defender has the advantage of home ground, terraforming and over-saturating area with turrets if he wants. TP beacons come into play because the defender has to walk all around the island, the attacker can swap sides relatively easily.

NOTHING should be made cheaper or easier. Even the construction blocks should have been left as they are. Content shouldn't be nerfed so everyone can do it and get welfare epics. Gamma was a long-term goal that is hard to achieve, requiring a lot of political, economical and military planning & execution.

Now a lot of people are lobbying for Gamma to be made safer without them having to risk anything too much. Instead of going towards a healthy direction we're moving to the other extreme. And it's worth noting that the people lobbying have no clue or experience how Gamma works on the live server.

It's all about play, not work. If some ppl have no RL that might be ok for them, kinda thats their problems and stuff. Most players, however, have not that much free time. ATM this game is already close to not worth spending time on it, and if it will be more and more complicated, then ppl will simply leave it to that little group of 24/7 players, that's it.

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90

Re: DEV - Player conference

Line wrote:

It's all about play, not work. If some ppl have no RL that might be ok for them, kinda thats their problems and stuff. Most players, however, have not that much free time. ATM this game is already close to not worth spending time on it, and if it will be more and more complicated, then ppl will simply leave it to that little group of 24/7 players, that's it.

As I said ATG long time ago. If you don't have enough players to do *** properly, maybe you shouldn't be there.

And don't tell me that bs "Who we gonna recruit when the population is low?". Well invest some of your time in helping newbies which the join the game, show them fun aspects of perp etc. OR STAY ON GOD DAMN ALPHA!

"you're not in an MMO to make friends, you're there to make enemies smile"

91 (edited by Line 2012-07-07 09:44:47)

Re: DEV - Player conference

Newbies have same problems - they want play, not work.

And yes, "stay alpha". With current PvE content there is nothing to do on alpha so "stay on alpha" = "leave the game". We will be unable to get any worth population with that.

Have a productive day, runner!
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Re: DEV - Player conference

So what of rewards. So far we have some good suggestions including Wild Noralgis from Line (here) although I think it should be quite a rare plant - nothing like the forests of Helio and Triand you find on alpha/beta.

We also have good ideas for NPC farming buffs.

A further reward to throw into the mix would be a very large increase in facility points but not by just increasing the points on the facility. To use factory as an example, currently on alpha 250-300 points is not difficult to achieve - a module/bot can be produced for between 112-114% of base materials.

On gamma a factory facility should be able to push 1500 points at the top end whilst maintaining the balance between the significance of extensions, the CT and the facility. This would mean a module/bot could be produced for about 103-104% of base materials.

To avoid diminishing the value of the extensions players have sunk their EP into, all tech levels of facility have a base of 400 points upgradeable to 500 points but the Standard will double points from extensions, the advanced triple them and the hi-tech quadruple them. A small buff to the calibration lab and/or decoder forge and about 1500 points would be achieved with roughly a third of the points contributed by each of CT, facility and extensions.

Combine this with a similar system for refinery, RE and proto and suddenly we have a good reward for gamma

Re: DEV - Player conference

Syndic wrote:

*sigh*

You're mixing apples and oranges fellas.

The underlying sentiment from the meeting is that Gamma needs to be more secure and the defenders have to have all the advantages, everything should go into reinforcement because it's a big blow for corporations to lose so much assets... Hello? Why should Gamma suddenly be made safer then Alpha or Beta without any player/asset investment?

Cassius I think underlined the main issue in Perpetuum; we've all had loads of fun playing chess with each other. One side thinks of one thing, other side comes up with something else and the circle goes around. Then the developers stepped in with a rushed idea to make it easier and everything went down the toilet.

Gamma CAN be made as safe as Alpha. But at the moment it requires a lot of NIC investment, a lot of time, a lot of player activity and most importantly a lot of manpower. It requires the defender to put a lot of assets on the line. And that is perfectly fine.

The attacker has the advantages of picking the time and place, the defender has the advantage of home ground, terraforming and over-saturating area with turrets if he wants. TP beacons come into play because the defender has to walk all around the island, the attacker can swap sides relatively easily.

NOTHING should be made cheaper or easier. Even the construction blocks should have been left as they are. Content shouldn't be nerfed so everyone can do it and get welfare epics. Gamma was a long-term goal that is hard to achieve, requiring a lot of political, economical and military planning & execution.

Now a lot of people are lobbying for Gamma to be made safer without them having to risk anything too much. Instead of going towards a healthy direction we're moving to the other extreme. And it's worth noting that the people lobbying have no clue or experience how Gamma works on the live server.

[Oranges]
I agree that at this stage players lack experience of how all the defences work.  With such a small active player-base, people are not queuing up to throw their assets into defending or attacking gamma.  It will take a long time to work out exactly how to defend or attack properly.

[Apples]
In the meanwhile the main power-blocks fortify their gamma islands to the point of being completely safe for hauling, mining/harvesting and producing.  This will not help generate regular pvp or (public) market activity.  At the moment, if living on gamma full time becomes practical (like it should be), beta becomes irrelevant since a mobile tp is easily used to skip over an entire beta island.  I would argue that it should be possible to access the main bulk of a gamma island without having to terraform your way through a wall while being shot buy turrets.

[The problem for the long term]
Imho with the population being the way it is, the primary concern for balancing should be to make the game fun for new and relatively casual (compared to many of us here) players.  Making gamma islands into personal playgrounds for two-three alliances is not helping that goal.

+1
-Confucius

Re: DEV - Player conference

Syndic wrote:

*sigh*

You're mixing apples and oranges fellas.

The underlying sentiment from the meeting is that Gamma needs to be more secure and the defenders have to have all the advantages, everything should go into reinforcement because it's a big blow for corporations to lose so much assets... Hello? Why should Gamma suddenly be made safer then Alpha or Beta without any player/asset investment?

Cassius I think underlined the main issue in Perpetuum; we've all had loads of fun playing chess with each other. One side thinks of one thing, other side comes up with something else and the circle goes around. Then the developers stepped in with a rushed idea to make it easier and everything went down the toilet.

Gamma CAN be made as safe as Alpha. But at the moment it requires a lot of NIC investment, a lot of time, a lot of player activity and most importantly a lot of manpower. It requires the defender to put a lot of assets on the line. And that is perfectly fine.

The attacker has the advantages of picking the time and place, the defender has the advantage of home ground, terraforming and over-saturating area with turrets if he wants. TP beacons come into play because the defender has to walk all around the island, the attacker can swap sides relatively easily.

NOTHING should be made cheaper or easier. Even the construction blocks should have been left as they are. Content shouldn't be nerfed so everyone can do it and get welfare epics. Gamma was a long-term goal that is hard to achieve, requiring a lot of political, economical and military planning & execution.

Now a lot of people are lobbying for Gamma to be made safer without them having to risk anything too much. Instead of going towards a healthy direction we're moving to the other extreme. And it's worth noting that the people lobbying have no clue or experience how Gamma works on the live server.

Wrong

Re: DEV - Player conference

Lets see ... wall off & turret off all your TPs *check* = win game smile

Im not against people "walling" them selves in & you should be able to do it... But only having to do it around a few TPs is bad.It makes for bad game play. Ive said this for the last 6 months nearly & after the test server & seeing what has been done so far on the live server i will stand by this line of thinking till some one proves otherwise or shows it with hard cold facts.

True Pros make a Podcast to influence the Devs minds, 
The rest of you guys are Hacks tongue

PS. I got my Highways & stopped playing b4 they came in & have never used them! ...... Irony much ? tongue

96 (edited by Syndic 2012-07-07 14:36:14)

Re: DEV - Player conference

In my mind, island defense - most logically - begins at the beach where enemies are landing. That doesn't mean the defense ENDS at the beach, just that it begins there.

People will build chokepoints, and there's nothing wrong with that because it cannot be stopped. It doesn't matter if it's on the teleport, on a mountain, or somewhere else. You yourself Obi said you designed a teleport defense that insta-shots whatever jumps in to that gate with ~80 turrets.

... So if you invested the assets to place down ~80 turrets (which all require reactors/batteries, transmitters, command nodes, boosters, the entire infrastructure behind it), shouldn't I as the attacker invest just as much and bring 200-300 people to dislodge your defense? Or should I be able to just bring a few assault bots, maybe a mech or two, and demolish your whole defense array whenever I feel like. roll

What happens in EVE when a small corporation of casual players goes on a roam to goonspac...*SPLAT*. How about when a small corporation of casual players tries to roam a russian wormhol... *SPLAT*. lol

If you make content easily accessible for new and casual players, all the hardcore veteran players will still beat seven kinds of living sh*t out of them if/when they feel like it.

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Re: DEV - Player conference

Syndic wrote:

What happens in EVE when a small corporation of casual players goes on a roam to goonspac...*SPLAT*. How about when a small corporation of casual players tries to roam a russian wormhol... *SPLAT*. lol

Roam is not the same as build a POS smile  any way smart roamers dont die when they go to goon & russian space... only the *** smile

what you say might be true but that doesn't mean it make for good game play

True Pros make a Podcast to influence the Devs minds, 
The rest of you guys are Hacks tongue

PS. I got my Highways & stopped playing b4 they came in & have never used them! ...... Irony much ? tongue

Re: DEV - Player conference

Nothing will work right or as intended in a game built for 2000-10000 active online subs when the population averages maybe 200.

The basics for everything is there, and barring some tweaks, reasonably sound.

Market
Production
Industry
PVP
Beta Sap
Gamma Settlements

None of these will work in our current population. And they dont.
Shame, its a great game. Please Devs, advertise more if you can.

Re: DEV - Player conference

Cassius wrote:

Nothing will work right or as intended in a game built for 2000-10000 active online subs when the population averages maybe 200.

Re: DEV - Player conference

Alexadar wrote:
Cassius wrote:

Nothing will work right or as intended in a game built for 2000-10000 active online subs when the population averages maybe 200.

So we just hope for more subs to a game that won't work until the population increases tenfold? Genius............