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stop spinning guys. i wont comment any further here, but if anyone wants to have a serious talk or know exactly what happened, contact me in game.
Your input will be missed, but do what you think you have to.
First off, We destroyed your base before the bug happened. You know, the full 45 mins we had to rampage through your island uncontested. The bug only occurred after you destroyed our small gang. After we were destroyed, we fled your island and did not reengage. So your base was destroyed fair and square. You did not take any losses after we were destroyed. FYI if you don't want your base destroyed, defend it next time.
Secondly as far as i know, AIG alliance had as much fun as we did. we didn't have a clouds chance in hell of taking the SAP and they knew it. And after the first time we "Ghosted", for lack of a better term, we PMed people on the AIG side and asked if the ghosting was occurring on there side, and it was. so both sides had the glitch occur. which means neither side gained an advantage. No harm no foul, but it was a hell of a lot of fun.
What Martha said ^^ I won't comment any further, because I think it's been covered.
No Martha, the question is in the motivation of the attack. If you knew that dying was not going to result in losses, then you risked nothing in coming to attack our base. The fact that the bug didn't 'help' you in destroying the base doesn't remove the concept that the attack may not even have taken place if you thought the loses from the attack would be permanent.
Like Deathmonkey was saying, paraphrased; No harm no foul, just some fun PVP. Loses are loses.
And, again, we have no way of knowing if your attacking forces were aware of the bug or not. If they were, then they knew they could attack with no repercussions, and if not, then they still were able to attack with no repercussions; either way the risk/reward balance of that and ANY fight during this bugged period is invalid.
Again you seem to miss the obvious. we didn't know about the glitch until you destroyed us and we Ghosted. we didn't know about it going in. that is why our guy filed the ticket to let the DEV's know. That's when we first found out about it. So again your point is completely invalid.
we do not know how to make this bug happen. we fully expected to die.
Again you seem to miss the obvious. we didn't know about the glitch until you destroyed us and we Ghosted. we didn't know about it going in. that is why our guy filed the ticket to let the DEV's know. That's when we first found out about it. So again your point is completely invalid.
No, the point is still absolutely valid. Regardless of if you had knowledge of the bug or not, and just because you reported it afterward does not 'prove' you didn't know about it before, your attack risked nothing. It is logically IMPOSSIBLE for you to prove that you had no concept of the bug before starting the operation, since the bug was present, it invalidates the attack.
This isn't even a 'discussion' of the building should be refunded, they absolutely should, just like any other lose that occured in ANY battle involving the bug; known or not.
Edit: Also, the 'net' result of the attack was our buildings got destroyed, and you lost nothing. There is no counter argument here, the system was broken at the time of the attack, through no fault of any players, but it was.
No Martha, the question is in the motivation of the attack. If you knew that dying was not going to result in losses, then you risked nothing in coming to attack our base. The fact that the bug didn't 'help' you in destroying the base doesn't remove the concept that the attack may not even have taken place if you thought the loses from the attack would be permanent.
Like Deathmonkey was saying, paraphrased; No harm no foul, just some fun PVP. Loses are loses.
And, again, we have no way of knowing if your attacking forces were aware of the bug or not. If they were, then they knew they could attack with no repercussions, and if not, then they still were able to attack with no repercussions; either way the risk/reward balance of that and ANY fight during this bugged period is invalid.
They didn't knew before that. No proves they did.
By your own logic, if we cant prove that we didn't know about it, you cant prove that we did. So again your point is not only flawed but invalid.
All that matters is we reported the bug, and none of your assets were destroyed because of the bug. and by your own statement, you only lost 37.5 mill. Thats less than a T4 Heavy mech. Again, if you dont want your base destroyed DEFEND IT.
or would you like to re calculate your losses, so everyone can know the full extent of your screw up?
By the presumtion of innocency, noone is guilty until his guilty proven.
By your own logic, if we cant prove that we didn't know about it, you cant prove that we did. So again your point is not only flawed but invalid.
All that matters is we reported the bug, and none of your assets were destroyed because of the bug. and by your own statement, you only lost 37.5 mill. Thats less than a T4 Heavy mech. Again, if you dont want your base destroyed DEFEND IT.
or would you like to re calculate your losses, so everyone can know the full extent of your screw up?
Your totally missing the point, the logic is not about proving/disproving your knowledge, nor did I try to weigh the win/loss values.
The system was bugged, your attack befited from that bug, so just like any other encounter even your 'Hey, this is fun to exploit and blow stuff up', is invalidated.
But nice work trying to confuse the issue about the base being defened, but if it wasn't defened, you wouldn't have ended up dead.. or I mean, not dead.
The attack was not affected by the bug, at all. We died. And that was it. Was a single shot fired on your base, or any of your corp mates after we died? Check the logs.
Whatever. The devs are going to do more to destroy our base then STC ever could.
So Devs, based on the information in this thread and the others when will we hear about q verdict for disciplinary actions to the obvious exploiters?
Also I want my buildings that were destroyed, seeing how STC didn't lose anything in the engagement even though they were killed and did not drop a can. I want our buildings reimbursed.
Today once again NATO attempted to take out our structures.
They came in a undguarded Gate and began to attmept to attack our gamma structures, they were able to get some but here is what happened.
You may want to nerf some other stuff. They didnt have to fight turrets that time.
NATO 0-3
Keep the nerf bat coming.
Again you seem to miss the obvious. we didn't know about the glitch until you destroyed us and we Ghosted.
Ghosted? The Cool Kids word for duped?
"Contrary to how everyone calls this "duping", there wasn't a moment when anyone could gain more than they had before they got destroyed. The anomaly consisted of them simply getting back their robots with everything they had on them. More importantly, when this happened, they didn't drop a loot container. (DEV Zoom)"
Wow, apparently the ability to read is not a prerequisite for entrance into CIR. Good to know.
As Cassius, I spoke on Gen Chat immediately after the battle with AIG ... I spoke quite freely and explained a few things ...
I'll repeat them ... and if you want to spin, go ahead.
The bug first occured to us when we died in the first insertion into your gamma. Exactly why the Seth died twice has been explained in this thread. When the bug occured we had no idea why or what caused it ... only later suspecting that it may have come from the patch the night before. We retreated as the attack was over. We as a corp discussed the bug and I sent the support ticket into the Devs. We got a fairly quick response. At the same time we had some bots, not involved in this attack, but safelogged on Novaya. When these players did what they do, they attempted to "arkhe port" back home by dying on CIR turrets, only to be respawned at their log off points. They then tried to die to npcs, and respawned again on the island. they in a sense were trapped on the island ... we passed this info along to AC. They told us it would be fixed the next day. We decided to have these bots die in a fire ... so we sent them to the AIG sap ...and discovered that it was not only a gamma island bug.
At this point we decided to have fun ... and respawned and shot and got shot. At one point we decided to try for the sap, and then stood down from the sap as it became apparent if we did take it (if we could, there was a strong defence) then we would have definitely gained something from this bug.
Some bots were affected and some weren't. And sometimes people make mistakes. While having this impromtu fun ... I did not take into consideration that the bots I killed, and didnt respawn, represented a real cost to the target. AIG, AIC, and BOS are welcome to convo me personally with a figure that I will happily reimburse to those corps.
Dying 8 or nine times in a heavy would not have occured had the bot not respawned ... and at that time we did not know how to prevent it ... so stating the market suffered is a moot point as if the bot stayed dead, the engagement would have ended.
Spin it any way you want ... Im telling you what occured, and why. Did we use bad judgement in the attack at Kara ... maybe.
Did we gain anything from this? No.
In the end, the Devs will decide, not these forums. And convo me directly on either Atticus, Brutux, or Cassius and I will tell you anything you wish to know.
And Lemon .... yes you rolled us tonight, gj to you and CIR and Friends ...
"Contrary to how everyone calls this "duping", there wasn't a moment when anyone could gain more than they had before they got destroyed. The anomaly consisted of them simply getting back their robots with everything they had on them. More importantly, when this happened, they didn't drop a loot container. (DEV Zoom)"
Wow, apparently the ability to read is not a prerequisite for entrance into CIR. Good to know.
As I said in a previous post, what is the difference between duping 9 kains and then undocking 9 times and getting them blown up, and duping a kain and getting it blown up 9 times? There is no difference. You are basically arguing that duping is fine as long as theres a point in time where you have the same physical assets as when you started.
No Martha, the question is in the motivation of the attack. If you knew that dying was not going to result in losses, then you risked nothing in coming to attack our base. The fact that the bug didn't 'help' you in destroying the base doesn't remove the concept that the attack may not even have taken place if you thought the loses from the attack would be permanent.
Like Deathmonkey was saying, paraphrased; No harm no foul, just some fun PVP. Loses are loses.
And, again, we have no way of knowing if your attacking forces were aware of the bug or not. If they were, then they knew they could attack with no repercussions, and if not, then they still were able to attack with no repercussions; either way the risk/reward balance of that and ANY fight during this bugged period is invalid.
Hello Arga, I can confirm that Hokk alliance had no idea of the bug before the attack time and also that the attack plans were done before the patch that came after 29th(and also the attack time was picked before that).
When have people ever gotten banned because of a bug in game that the players can not control?
I understand your view in this matter but I feel you are in a no-win situation right now with these arguments. As Zoom said, there wasn't really any duping(dont translate that to Croatian) going on. Syndic mentioned something about intentionally undocking but that is not really the real issue. Even if they were to stay docked, the extra bot that survived and got teleported back would still be there and would have been used in something else. The reasons why they undocked have been mentioned in several posts that appear before mine, please read them up.
they wont do that burial...CIR wants "revenge" after Syndic got a ban for braking the EULA.
Arga wrote:No Martha, the question is in the motivation of the attack. If you knew that dying was not going to result in losses, then you risked nothing in coming to attack our base. The fact that the bug didn't 'help' you in destroying the base doesn't remove the concept that the attack may not even have taken place if you thought the loses from the attack would be permanent.
Like Deathmonkey was saying, paraphrased; No harm no foul, just some fun PVP. Loses are loses.
And, again, we have no way of knowing if your attacking forces were aware of the bug or not. If they were, then they knew they could attack with no repercussions, and if not, then they still were able to attack with no repercussions; either way the risk/reward balance of that and ANY fight during this bugged period is invalid.
Hello Arga, I can confirm that Hokk alliance had no idea of the bug before the attack time and also that the attack plans were done before the patch that came after 29th(and also the attack time was picked before that).
When have people ever gotten banned because of a bug in game that the players can not control?
I understand your view in this matter but I feel you are in a no-win situation right now with these arguments you are making. As Zoom said, there wasn't really any "duping" going on(dont translate that to Croatian). Syndic mentioned something about intentionally undocking but that is not really the real issue. Even if they were to stay docked, the extra bot that survived and got teleported back would still be there. The reasons why they undocked have been mentioned in several posts that appear before mine, please read them up.
The thread is getting long, Burial, but I did specifically say I don't think anyone should get banned for this. As for the attack, its not relevant again, if anyone knew before or after.
A bot attacked our base, and destroyed assets with value. It was then attacked and blown up, but the bot owner suffered no loss. That is broken. The only clear way to rectify this developer bug, is to essentially undo all the combat since the patch was released. From our base to AIG's SAP, as if it never happened.
Allright, In all honesty, I did not read the whole thread, just scimmed over so pardon. 
I actually agree with the solution you are proposing Arga and thought about that too myself.
Martha Stuart wrote:"Contrary to how everyone calls this "duping", there wasn't a moment when anyone could gain more than they had before they got destroyed. The anomaly consisted of them simply getting back their robots with everything they had on them. More importantly, when this happened, they didn't drop a loot container. (DEV Zoom)"
Wow, apparently the ability to read is not a prerequisite for entrance into CIR. Good to know.
As I said in a previous post, what is the difference between duping 9 kains and then undocking 9 times and getting them blown up, and duping a kain and getting it blown up 9 times? There is no difference. You are basically arguing that duping is fine as long as theres a point in time where you have the same physical assets as when you started.
No, what i am saying is the DEV's have clearly stated that it WAS NOT DUPING. I didn't make this up. I didn't "Spin" this. I just quoted word for word what the devs have clearly stated. So if you disagree, by all means argue with them. My point is that it has been clearly stated by "the powers that be" that what happened was not duping.
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