Topic: Information on the robot death bug (2012-07-02)

We've noticed yesterday that some players seemingly randomly had their robots automatically reimbursed upon death. Our investigation showed that the bug got in with the 06-29 Friday patch.

Contrary to how everyone calls this "duping", there wasn't a moment when anyone could gain more than they had before they got destroyed. The anomaly consisted of them simply getting back their robots with everything they had on them. More importantly, when this happened, they didn't drop a loot container.

We're currently conducting an investigation to find out what course of action to take, besides reimbursing the losses of those who got destroyed by these "free" robots.

Re: Information on the robot death bug (2012-07-02)

Thanks DEV Zoom.

Re: Information on the robot death bug (2012-07-02)

Oh yes, I almost forgot: the bug was fixed in today's hotfix.

4 (edited by Syndic 2012-07-02 15:12:20)

Re: Information on the robot death bug (2012-07-02)

Can you please clarify for me Zoom if this applies:

<PART OF EULA>
What is strictly forbidden:

In order to make sure that the player community isn’t disturbed by the actions of a few, AC forbids the following activities to the players:

* It is forbidden to use any kind of third party application or tool that interfaces with, mimics or interferes with any part of the game system in any way, including the use of macros, control scripts, bots, system time manipulation tools, memory access tools or reverse engineering tools;
* It is forbidden to use any trick, hack or exploit that allows the player to gain ingame currency, or anything that an ingame monetary value can be assigned to, or any kind of unfair advantage over the other players.

Undocking several times, in some cases 8-9 times, in high-value and high powered robots that were affected by this bug during a SAP of a Beta outpost is a clear, intentional exploit of a bug and an unfair advantage over other players.

It cannot be said that this is accidental, because then it happens 1-2 times not 8-9 times.

Thanks for your response in advance.

[18:20:30] <GLiMPSE> Chairman Of My Heart o/
CIR Complaint Form

The Imperial Grand Wizard of Justice

Re: Information on the robot death bug (2012-07-02)

Awesome... SO when do we finish closed beta testing again? i mean i love surprises like what was in the last patch. but really.... this game never feels like it ever came out of closed Beta with the way new stuff just comes in at random. That also bring with them new game braking bugs.

True Pros make a Podcast to influence the Devs minds, 
The rest of you guys are Hacks tongue

PS. I got my Highways & stopped playing b4 they came in & have never used them! ...... Irony much ? tongue

Re: Information on the robot death bug (2012-07-02)

Syndic wrote:

Can you please clarify for me Zoom if this applies:

<PART OF EULA>
What is strictly forbidden:

In order to make sure that the player community isn’t disturbed by the actions of a few, AC forbids the following activities to the players:

* It is forbidden to use any kind of third party application or tool that interfaces with, mimics or interferes with any part of the game system in any way, including the use of macros, control scripts, bots, system time manipulation tools, memory access tools or reverse engineering tools;
* It is forbidden to use any trick, hack or exploit that allows the player to gain ingame currency, or anything that an ingame monetary value can be assigned to, or any kind of unfair advantage over the other players.

Undocking several times, in some cases 8-9 times, in high-value and high powered robots that were affected by this bug during a SAP of a Beta outpost is a clear, intentional exploit of a bug and an unfair advantage over other players.

It cannot be said that this is accidental, because then it happens 1-2 times not 8-9 times.

Thanks for your response in advance.


Where was the unfair advantage to other players?  It appears that players on all sides repeatedly undocked after destroyed.   It also appears that a grand old time was had by all.     Because you didn't get to play does not constitute "Damages"

Re: Information on the robot death bug (2012-07-02)

Deathmonkey wrote:
Syndic wrote:

Can you please clarify for me Zoom if this applies:

<PART OF EULA>
What is strictly forbidden:

In order to make sure that the player community isn’t disturbed by the actions of a few, AC forbids the following activities to the players:

* It is forbidden to use any kind of third party application or tool that interfaces with, mimics or interferes with any part of the game system in any way, including the use of macros, control scripts, bots, system time manipulation tools, memory access tools or reverse engineering tools;
* It is forbidden to use any trick, hack or exploit that allows the player to gain ingame currency, or anything that an ingame monetary value can be assigned to, or any kind of unfair advantage over the other players.

Undocking several times, in some cases 8-9 times, in high-value and high powered robots that were affected by this bug during a SAP of a Beta outpost is a clear, intentional exploit of a bug and an unfair advantage over other players.

It cannot be said that this is accidental, because then it happens 1-2 times not 8-9 times.

Thanks for your response in advance.


Where was the unfair advantage to other players?  It appears that players on all sides repeatedly undocked after destroyed.   It also appears that a grand old time was had by all.     Because you didn't get to play does not constitute "Damages"

Whoa buddy keep the trolling in the other forums...  This is News and information when only the FACTs are presented.

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8 (edited by Syndic 2012-07-02 15:37:10)

Re: Information on the robot death bug (2012-07-02)

Deathmonkey wrote:

Where was the unfair advantage to other players?  It appears that players on all sides repeatedly undocked after destroyed.   It also appears that a grand old time was had by all.     Because you didn't get to play does not constitute "Damages"

When I lost my bot last time, I had to go out and mine resources, refine them and produce my bot. I was under the impression that's how Perpetuum is supposed to be played. I'm asking because latest events have given me a different impression.

[18:20:30] <GLiMPSE> Chairman Of My Heart o/
CIR Complaint Form

The Imperial Grand Wizard of Justice

Re: Information on the robot death bug (2012-07-02)

Syndic wrote:

When I lost my bot last time, I had to go out and mine resources, refine them and produce my bot. I was under the impression that's how Perpetuum is supposed to be played. I'm asking because latest events have given me a different impression.

I hear you, and now that the hotfix is in place, all is right with the world.   For a few crazy days -  people got to shoot people... a lot.   It was fun.   I didn't die, and didn't get to respawn - but I got to shoot at people who did.   I'm nothing but better for the experience, or at least was entertained for a few hours.

Again - "no unfair advantage was gained over another player"

Lighten up and enjoy the ride man.  No one gets out alive.

Re: Information on the robot death bug (2012-07-02)

I think we need to make a distinction between intentional and unintentional changes here.  It is my understanding that these days AC uses a test server to let players test new game changing mechanics.  It seems they have learned from past errors at least to some degree there.  When it comes to unexpected bugs, these just happen sometimes no matter how undesirable.  Off course there are quality control procedures but I have no experience in that area so will refrain from commenting.  Seems to me that reimbursing losses inflicted by bots which should have been dead may be about as close to fair as we can get at this point.

+1
-Confucius

Re: Information on the robot death bug (2012-07-02)

guys stop that stupid talk...

if you want to compare this incident with the last one then do it right and not just for your own stupid propaganda... that includes both sides...

case now:
given the info from zoom as facts then this could occur to a player that they just got their stuff back after a loss. so basicly just like on the test server... (hint how it got in). so the player could not change that or willingly get that. it was a fact that he just has woken up back in his bot. no willing action could be taken taken to recreate that. it just happend. considering the eula and considering logical sense the logical reaction would have been to report this insted of useing it. so you might be able to blame them for that.

old case:
well the old case was not a passive thing that just occured. this was a willingly used violation of the eula. and you got away with a temporary ban.

so if you compare these two and take international law standarts as basics (lol) then who is more to blame. someone that willingly abused something and has willingly broken the rules or someone who just was given a benefit by error and used that. both are not inocent, but who would have to face the greater punishment? ill leave that up to you.
besides its not mine to decide. you can point it out to the devs, but its theirs to decide what to do. but keep on with your blaming and going verbaly at each others throats. ill just think this is getting stupid and more like childs play. keep your hostilities on the battlefield.

my 2 cents

Re: Information on the robot death bug (2012-07-02)

Zortarg Calltar wrote:

guys stop that stupid talk...

if you want to compare this incident with the last one then do it right and not just for your own stupid propaganda... that includes both sides...

case now:
given the info from zoom as facts then this could occur to a player that they just got their stuff back after a loss. so basicly just like on the test server... (hint how it got in). so the player could not change that or willingly get that. it was a fact that he just has woken up back in his bot. no willing action could be taken taken to recreate that. it just happend. considering the eula and considering logical sense the logical reaction would have been to report this insted of useing it. so you might be able to blame them for that.

old case:
well the old case was not a passive thing that just occured. this was a willingly used violation of the eula. and you got away with a temporary ban.

so if you compare these two and take international law standarts as basics (lol) then who is more to blame. someone that willingly abused something and has willingly broken the rules or someone who just was given a benefit by error and used that. both are not inocent, but who would have to face the greater punishment? ill leave that up to you.
besides its not mine to decide. you can point it out to the devs, but its theirs to decide what to do. but keep on with your blaming and going verbaly at each others throats. ill just think this is getting stupid and more like childs play. keep your hostilities on the battlefield.

my 2 cents

I do not believe that.

Someone had to willingly click the DEPLOY button 8-9 times, knowing full well the heavy mech they were using should have died a long time ago. Someone had to actively target and attack other players.

It's ofcourse up to the Developers to make the ultimate decision, I am asking for clarification so that I know what to tell my guys next time when some other bug is discovered. Is it OK to have fun with bugs like this? Why does EULA say 1 thing and actions say different thing?

I suggest EULA is edited to reflect real rules of Perpetuum that apply to everyone, because atm I'm sure you can understand it's very hard to determine what is regarded "right" or "wrong", whats allowed and what isn't. As player I would like to know real rules I can rely on.

my 2 cents.

[18:20:30] <GLiMPSE> Chairman Of My Heart o/
CIR Complaint Form

The Imperial Grand Wizard of Justice

Re: Information on the robot death bug (2012-07-02)

I just want to point that accordingly to perp-kill.net both sides were affected and used that bug so punishment, if any, should be performed on both sides.

Have a productive day, runner!
R.I.P. Chenoa, you'll never be forgotten.
DEV Zoom: Line, sorry, I was away for christmas.
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Re: Information on the robot death bug (2012-07-02)

Also, let me clear the things. I've experienced that bug yesterday trying to arkheport. When I've died first time, I've found myself in a terminal N/A unable to do anything and have no access to facilities and stuff. I've thought it's a some kind of client crash, relogged, suicided and got the same result. I've restarted the whole client, and surprisingly - SAME BUG. Then I've just took another arkhe - and voila everything ok.

As a result of this - you never can be sure if your bot will be respawned. And even if you got your bot respawned, you can't be sure if another one will too. So there is no possible way to exploit it in a way you're pestering about, it just happens. And since you got this bug on a enemy territory, you can't manage to leave it - cuz, you know, enemies are shooting wink

Personally I'm gonna thank all the CIR spinning this situation today - you've showed your "concern" of EULA to all of us.

Best Regards, and
Have a productive day!

Have a productive day, runner!
R.I.P. Chenoa, you'll never be forgotten.
DEV Zoom: Line, sorry, I was away for christmas.
http://perp-kill.net/?m=view&id=252086

Re: Information on the robot death bug (2012-07-02)

Wrong is wrong and right is right. 

Let me ask you this STC what do you think would have happened if you actually were successful and took the SAP and killed their bots from a steady stream of unending bots out of the outpost?  Think they would have had fun?

Now that we are on this topic does that mean all pvp loses are going to get stripped?  And do get our buildings back from the exploited bots that destroyed our structures?  Since I proved in my post that we had to fight the same bot more then once???

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16 (edited by mqx 2012-07-02 18:03:49)

Re: Information on the robot death bug (2012-07-02)

no bugged bots destroyed any of your structures. also, we did not intend to destroy that sap after we had lost the first round. also, afaik, you did not lose a single bot that day (after destroying us), nor did shadow re-engage.

Re: Information on the robot death bug (2012-07-02)

I got two kill mails on him 7 mins apart.  Bug confirmed on 29th the attack was on the 30th.  We wondered how the hell he got back so quick.

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Re: Information on the robot death bug (2012-07-02)

Ville raises a very good question here, Im curious about the answer too.

[18:20:30] <GLiMPSE> Chairman Of My Heart o/
CIR Complaint Form

The Imperial Grand Wizard of Justice

Re: Information on the robot death bug (2012-07-02)

No duplicated records on perp-kill on 30th. Can you please post a screenshot of your trophys?

Have a productive day, runner!
R.I.P. Chenoa, you'll never be forgotten.
DEV Zoom: Line, sorry, I was away for christmas.
http://perp-kill.net/?m=view&id=252086

Re: Information on the robot death bug (2012-07-02)

Line its shadowphile on the 30th in a Seth.  Or view my Q and A post.

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Dev Zoom: I think its time to confess, Ville is my alt
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21 (edited by Line 2012-07-02 18:47:13)

Re: Information on the robot death bug (2012-07-02)

Indeed. Well, with or without him you'd gonna lost those buildings anyway, so it's really hard to decide in that situation. Hope DEVs will find the proper solution.

Have a productive day, runner!
R.I.P. Chenoa, you'll never be forgotten.
DEV Zoom: Line, sorry, I was away for christmas.
http://perp-kill.net/?m=view&id=252086

22 (edited by Deathmonkey 2012-07-02 19:19:48)

Re: Information on the robot death bug (2012-07-02)

Ahh - selective "Research" on your part Ville. 

1st kill -  Shadowphile killed on Novaya Traya during battle.
2nd Kill - Shadowphile is stuck on Greensward island instead of logging in at home base terminal  and attempts to Evac -  He's caught and dies again.
3rd Shadowphile -  Not sent to terminal so can't do anything but respawn again.  Safe-logs until he can leave island with a tad less harrassment. 

That doesn't sound fun - nor criminal.   no?

Edit: Second point -   Bug confirmed on 29th?   The Dev's post is today.   STC reported bug on 1st after it happened.

Re: Information on the robot death bug (2012-07-02)

Regardless, since the bug was present, active, and used in the attack, the refunding of the destroyed building is no different then refunding lost bots from an engagement.

The entire RvR balance was offset.

Since simply 'asking' the motivation or possiblity that the attacker was actually aware of the bug is in no way reliable, the devs have no recourse but to error on the side of the defender; basically assume the attack knew.

Unless the devs actually proceed with meaningful reprecussions against those that used the bug, and there is no way to know for sure if they were ignorant of the bug (its obvious when they repeatedly abused it, but even a single death could have been done with knowledge), then there is no 'downside' to erroring on the side of assuming any involved deaths were done intentionally.

I'm not for banning anyone for this, since again its a matter of motive that is for many cases unprovable, but to selectively refund lost resources when the bug was involved in anyway, is extremely unbalanced.

Re: Information on the robot death bug (2012-07-02)

Thank you for confirming that DeathMonkey, so now we know that STC was aware of the bug and used it against AIG at karapyth in order to gain an unfair advantage over AIG.  Thank-you deathmonkey for your honesty.

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Dev Zoom: I think its time to confess, Ville is my alt
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25 (edited by mqx 2012-07-02 19:46:41)

Re: Information on the robot death bug (2012-07-02)

stop spinning guys. i wont comment any further here, but if anyone wants to have a serious talk or know exactly what happened, contact me in game.

P.S.: In an unrelated note, was it not stated previously that the total damage we did only amounted to 37m? Any reimursement beyond that would thus amount to dev endorsed duping, no?