Re: Mining on alpha - no future?

btw, who complains here? the professional fulltime miner, or the casual one?

the casual miner can even fill his sequer with a fragmented field, the professional should be fasten then before change with collection of materials - like Lemon wrote:

  • directional scanner tells you where something is, while old system meant that you have to check all the fields that everyone knew for one that has enough tiles left for your online time. You had to go out with a geoscanner anyway every time.

  • mining yield per cycle was increased, ore volume reduced. => casual friendlier

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Mining on alpha - no future?

Lemon wrote:
Yakapao Doherato wrote:

who knows? this tread is not about guessing, but fixing a mechanic may lead to new troubles.
What do you think, will the ore prices on alphas do, when mining will be 3/4 moving around?
Oh wait...I forgot, "99% pvp beta megacorps" usually care a @%$§ about alpha markets and casual player troubles. They´re all self-sufficient.

Your right its not about guessing, so let my "mega-corp" ways enlighten you to the bulk vast majority opinion from within instead of a 2 man corp's opinion.

My top Alpha miner has now mined over 120m slig in just under 3 days casually. Why/How? Instead of undocking as he normally would and spend 30-40 mins scanning all his normal fields to find a good field he undocks finds his fresh field (on occasion a fragmented one) and then undocks his fleet and goes to take it out.

Now yes twice he has said he has hit a fragmented field on alpha and simply cleans it up to prevent it giving him issues in the future.

My mining fleet consist of well over 20+ dedicated Riv mk 2 pilots, all of whome with the exception of 1 agree the new system is better. Instead of tracking old fields down with resources you find a new one that has resource and go mop it up.

And no Line you know i don't have a single miner i have 9 combat accounts. i prefer explosions but in order for these explosions my miners have to mine to make bots for me to use to make them explode so there opinion i will argue for.

Yakapao Doherato wrote:

Dear community, dear DEV team,

As mentioned in some other topics and on the test server forum, the problem with depletable ore fields slowly starts to rise over the alphas. Not even a week after the gamma patch, the issue already taking its place, and will get much worse in the future:

Ore field fragmentation. Today I randomly tracked two different ore fields with a directional scanner charge on Shinjalar. My accuracy is above 100%. In both cases the scanner led me to a field with only ONE BLACK tile. I returned back with some mining lasers, mined it out (1.5k stermonit in first case) and the scanner traced for the next field.

That will get even worse, when you look in the future. Mining on alpha will become only viable for big corps where someone is scanning and once found a reasonable field, a mining op will melt it down in no time. Casual miner which would like to mine for an hour or two in the evening, will have no chance.

And then there for sure will be people/corps that leave the field with only one tile, just to let others bump into empty fields.

A self defragmentation mechanic needs to be setup, when we dont want to loose mining as a complete profession on alphas.

Extra highlighted for you...

28 (edited by Yakapao Doherato 2012-06-08 01:57:53)

Re: Mining on alpha - no future?

Zortarg Calltar wrote:

al it takes is some clean up from time to time. if you guys are too laszy then that is your problem. you want a clean island? then keep it clean. if there are a lot of lazy guys... well thats your problem. noone asks on gamma what you have to do when the field is largely under impassagble terrain. oh #*$§ i have to terraform...

what you basicly complain about is that you just want to undock and find your fresh fileds and get the nic running form the first minute. well i guess that time is over now and you have to do some other things besides it. ill call this making mining more intresting and less monotone. but i see no real problem, and iven if it only arises if you are lazy enough and dont want to do a thing. if you are on a boat and are aproaching a waterall you can scream "oh my god we are all going to die" or you can start to paddle. guess what happens if you keep screaming...


Well, if you just would spend a minute and look at my char history, you could save your time, writing that bullsh...
Do you really think, Im complaining about my income from mining? I dont loose every day Mk2 t4-fitted bots in pvp.

Words will not help here anymore, we will have to wait a couple of weeks/months....
And (I hope) when the population is a bit more then up to 200 people on WE, we will see.

@ Annihilator: I guess, you mean by "professional miner" some well skilled miner? Who said, they got to have 8-12hrs a day to fill their cargoes with ore?

29 (edited by Line 2012-06-08 11:22:37)

Re: Mining on alpha - no future?

Even a professional miner can have problems. Even a big corp mining fleet!

Have a productive day, runner!
R.I.P. Chenoa, you'll never be forgotten.
DEV Zoom: Line, sorry, I was away for christmas.
http://perp-kill.net/?m=view&id=252086

Re: Mining on alpha - no future?

So you're whining because you're too lazy to zip out around in an Argano and do a Directional & Tile scan to verify field quality? I mean there's more then one so whats the problem? Find one and eat it. Find another and eat it. Move to Beta or Gamma and eat it. Generally eat fields.

[18:20:30] <GLiMPSE> Chairman Of My Heart o/
CIR Complaint Form

The Imperial Grand Wizard of Justice

Re: Mining on alpha - no future?

So every lil newbie corpy should join the game only if they are already have a couple of arganos fitted with t4 geoscanner and leveled geochemistry? Thaaats how they should play, hmmm!

Or maybe they should not have RL to be able to spend hours for geoscanning and mining if they want to achieve sthing here? Thaaaats how they should play, hmmm!

We are about 200 now. With player base increase this lil annoying thing will turn in a BIG problem.

Learn to think about the future of the game.

Have a productive day, runner!
R.I.P. Chenoa, you'll never be forgotten.
DEV Zoom: Line, sorry, I was away for christmas.
http://perp-kill.net/?m=view&id=252086

Re: Mining on alpha - no future?

This is a serious problem for me and many players.

If possible, the respawn rate of the fields need to be changed.  It is too difficult as it stands now to completely deplete the field to get it to respawn, I have tried!  Example:  Mine a few pieces from a couple of green tiles, rescan, mine a few pieces from a smaller green tile, rescan.  Maybe if I knew how much I needed to extract from the empty green field before it respawned would help.

I like what the devs have done to the mining experience but...  I would think the mining experience should be "fun" for players but there is nothing to gain to make players hop around a mining field mining out little green tiles that bare no fruit for a player just to get the next field to spawn.  I hope this is not the type of "miners code" they wish to relay. 

Happy mining!

Lonwolf
NSE
"What we do in life, echoes into eternity!" --Gladiator

Re: Mining on alpha - no future?

Lonwolf: you are mistaken, a mineral field will never respawn at the same location, even if you mine it completely. (Well, at least the chances for that are extremely low.)

"Fields" do not exist from the viewpoint of the server, only tiles. The server periodically checks the overall amount of minerals contained in tiles on an island, and when it finds that the current amount is lower than a certain threshold, it will generate a new field at a random location.

Re: Mining on alpha - no future?

One thing I missed in my Alpha-Fragmentation calculation was the daily mineral exploitation missions.

The experience I have had is as follows:

Fit up Termis MK II with Geo-scanner and miner modules, Spice to Taste, get daily assignment, undock and directional scan for nearest daily mineral.

Find mineral, tile scan, and mine.

The daily, at least the Tellesis one, requires a low amount of rare material, and with the reduction in fluffyness, I can get complete the mission without needing a can.

A couple caveats then, the Termis has a good Geo-accuracy bonus and I'm using a T4 scanner (I have max geo skill from artifact hunting, but it's not a requirement); but even with a T1 scanner with skills you can get a fairly good scan.

While I'll probably only be doing those missions for another couple days, to get rep up, there should be a whole new batch of miners on A1 and A2 islands that will want to use the closest tiles for the missions, and can still get value from a couple of green tiles.

I haven't looked at the lvl 1,2,3 mineral exploit missions, but if they require 4,8, and 12 rare ions (respectively) to complete, then this can also be done in arkhe's, argano's and termis's very easily without needing to can mine.

Fragmentation is still going to occur on the fields that end up far away from the terminals, especially true for A2 islands. If fragmenation is allowed to continue unchecked for months and months, there will be hundreds of small patches of tiles around the perimiter of the islands; which won't interfere with directional scanning, but would 'lockup' a significant amount of the 'minimum' resource calculation.

I don't think the purpose of this mineral mechanic should be to force a subset of 'do-good' players to run around cleaning up tiles. The mechanic does an excellent job of getting players to be more pro-active in searching for ore, which is good.

I would say, Monitor the fragmentation, and if it becomes an issue where the 'ore-bunnies' pile up in the corners (even if it takes months to happen), implement something to counter that.

Re: Mining on alpha - no future?

Arga wrote:

One thing I missed in my Alpha-Fragmentation calculation was the daily mineral exploitation missions.

The experience I have had is as follows:

Fit up Termis MK II with Geo-scanner and miner modules, Spice to Taste, get daily assignment, undock and directional scan for nearest daily mineral.

Find mineral, tile scan, and mine.

The daily, at least the Tellesis one, requires a low amount of rare material, and with the reduction in fluffyness, I can get complete the mission without needing a can.

A couple caveats then, the Termis has a good Geo-accuracy bonus and I'm using a T4 scanner (I have max geo skill from artifact hunting, but it's not a requirement); but even with a T1 scanner with skills you can get a fairly good scan.

While I'll probably only be doing those missions for another couple days, to get rep up, there should be a whole new batch of miners on A1 and A2 islands that will want to use the closest tiles for the missions, and can still get value from a couple of green tiles.

I haven't looked at the lvl 1,2,3 mineral exploit missions, but if they require 4,8, and 12 rare ions (respectively) to complete, then this can also be done in arkhe's, argano's and termis's very easily without needing to can mine.

Fragmentation is still going to occur on the fields that end up far away from the terminals, especially true for A2 islands. If fragmenation is allowed to continue unchecked for months and months, there will be hundreds of small patches of tiles around the perimiter of the islands; which won't interfere with directional scanning, but would 'lockup' a significant amount of the 'minimum' resource calculation.

I don't think the purpose of this mineral mechanic should be to force a subset of 'do-good' players to run around cleaning up tiles. The mechanic does an excellent job of getting players to be more pro-active in searching for ore, which is good.

I would say, Monitor the fragmentation, and if it becomes an issue where the 'ore-bunnies' pile up in the corners (even if it takes months to happen), implement something to counter that.

That is exactly what Im trying to tell, if anyone would read my posts like they are written and not reading just something, they like to. Its always more simple to call one a whiner than to debate with arguments.

As to your giga mining machinery, you are not on all 6 alpha islands to clean anything out 24h a day, are you?
Ill just wait, till the problem gets worse over time (and it will, imho). And noone can really think of getting ALL miners to ALWAYS mine the way you´d like. As it was mentioned above, a noob miner can always get his sequer full, he doesnt care of how he does it....untill there is nothing to mine in a radius of 10km from the terminal...

Re: Mining on alpha - no future?

Yakapao Doherato wrote:

That is exactly what Im trying to tell, if anyone would read my posts like they are written and not reading just something, they like to. Its always more simple to call one a whiner than to debate with arguments.

You're whining about people not reading your posts as written.

It falls to the author to make their points, not the reader. If your point is being missed continually, then its probably the voice your using to reach your audience.

Re: Mining on alpha - no future?

His post is well-written and noone whine here. Already a lot of ppl are agreed that there is an issue. Why do you keep arguing?

Have a productive day, runner!
R.I.P. Chenoa, you'll never be forgotten.
DEV Zoom: Line, sorry, I was away for christmas.
http://perp-kill.net/?m=view&id=252086

Re: Mining on alpha - no future?

See, if I were to tell Line to read my post, in which I actually support the concept of ore removal, that would be whinning about how Line didn't spend 5 mins working through my wall of text.

Re: Mining on alpha - no future?

Arga wrote:
Yakapao Doherato wrote:

That is exactly what Im trying to tell, if anyone would read my posts like they are written and not reading just something, they like to. Its always more simple to call one a whiner than to debate with arguments.

You're whining about people not reading your posts as written.

It falls to the author to make their points, not the reader. If your point is being missed continually, then its probably the voice your using to reach your audience.

Please, read my original post (once again). You even may read it twice, or so many times, you like to. Where do you find any attempts for "whining" on the autors side? Further, Im not "whining" about some people, reading not what is written, but only state the fact. Believe me, there are different things in my life, that I "whine about", not a game.

40

Re: Mining on alpha - no future?

I ask what is the big difference between now an pre patch people still left small amounts of ore in static fields.
I recall many times when I went to go scan fields and there was a few green tiles left of a huge field

So I would need to find another field or wait for it to regen

Now if fields are stripped they will respawn a lot faster than before

If you find a one tile field kill it so you can find the next

L2P

Tux ~ Kill the messenger, he was part of it all along.
Euripides ~ Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head.
Bertrand Russell ~ War does not determine who is right - only who is left.

Re: Mining on alpha - no future?

Yakapao Doherato wrote:
Arga wrote:
Yakapao Doherato wrote:

That is exactly what Im trying to tell, if anyone would read my posts like they are written and not reading just something, they like to. Its always more simple to call one a whiner than to debate with arguments.

You're whining about people not reading your posts as written.

It falls to the author to make their points, not the reader. If your point is being missed continually, then its probably the voice your using to reach your audience.

Please, read my original post (once again). You even may read it twice, or so many times, you like to. Where do you find any attempts for "whining" on the autors side? Further, Im not "whining" about some people, reading not what is written, but only state the fact. Believe me, there are different things in my life, that I "whine about", not a game.

Wow, really, this is a recursive whine: If you did that on purpose, Kudos smile

I quoted where you were whinning about people not reading your post, not that your whining IN your OP. See, this is YOU not reading my post, but again complaining/whining that OTHER people are not reading your posts. See the Irony here?

Re: Mining on alpha - no future?

Arga wrote:

See, if I were to tell Line to read my post, in which I actually support the concept of ore removal, that would be whinning about how Line didn't spend 5 mins working through my wall of text.

Highlight plox where exactly do I write sthing directly to YOU.

Now think please how does it fits with a ppl doesn't read posts.

Have a productive day, runner!
R.I.P. Chenoa, you'll never be forgotten.
DEV Zoom: Line, sorry, I was away for christmas.
http://perp-kill.net/?m=view&id=252086

Re: Mining on alpha - no future?

My post was about the quality of the OP's writing.

Your post said "His post is well written".

That is your post referencing my post, hence referencing me.

Then you say "Why do you keep arguing", which because of the above, makes "you" mean Me.

Therefore, since my post, which actually had something to do with this thread and not a continual reference to people's inablilty to read which the OP seems to be fixated on, and was Pro-defragmentation, is by implication and direct evidence, what you were referring to.

44

Re: Mining on alpha - no future?

Sundial wrote:
DEV Alf wrote:

I would say, its a miner code, to clean up after yourself.
If you don't like to find tiny spots, you don't leave tiny spots behind.
If everyone would follow this guideline there shouldn't be any problem.

As for griefing... there are numerous and way more exciting ways of griefing than mining for hours to leave a spot behind... smile (but you always surprise me cool )

The problem is you will leave spots behind if you dont have 100% geoscanner efficiency.


Sundial wrote:

Please leave the PvP features to PvPers and we wont mess with your PvE.


/cough /cough  .... leave mining as is

Tux ~ Kill the messenger, he was part of it all along.
Euripides ~ Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head.
Bertrand Russell ~ War does not determine who is right - only who is left.

Re: Mining on alpha - no future?

Arga wrote:

My post was about the quality of the OP's writing.

Your post said "His post is well written".

That is your post referencing my post, hence referencing me.

Then you say "Why do you keep arguing", which because of the above, makes "you" mean Me.

Therefore, since my post, which actually had something to do with this thread and not a continual reference to people's inablilty to read which the OP seems to be fixated on, and was Pro-defragmentation, is by implication and direct evidence, what you were referring to.

I lost you there, what was this thread about again?... tongue Oh what Arga said in his wall-o-text is just about right.

RIP PERPETUUM

Re: Mining on alpha - no future?

Arga wrote:

My post was about the quality of the OP's writing.

Your post said "His post is well written".

That is your post referencing my post, hence referencing me.

Then you say "Why do you keep arguing", which because of the above, makes "you" mean Me.

Therefore, since my post, which actually had something to do with this thread and not a continual reference to people's inablilty to read which the OP seems to be fixated on, and was Pro-defragmentation, is by implication and direct evidence, what you were referring to.

Oh god lol. Awesome fail logic big_smile

"His post is well-written" - nothing refers on you or your post. Yes, OP post is really well-written, that's it. Since some peolpe thinks that this whole thread is about "how hard to mine return us our afk-mining" etc, words "His post is well-written" are telling ppl to re-read them if they didn't understood the topic. Same with "Why do you keep arguing". To simplify that all - nothing refers to you until you're quoted or mentioned clearly.

Now, if you're finished with your logic exersize, can we get back to a topic?

Have a productive day, runner!
R.I.P. Chenoa, you'll never be forgotten.
DEV Zoom: Line, sorry, I was away for christmas.
http://perp-kill.net/?m=view&id=252086

Re: Mining on alpha - no future?

Mining is awesome as it is now!

Re: Mining on alpha - no future?

Line wrote:
Arga wrote:

My post was about the quality of the OP's writing.

Your post said "His post is well written".

That is your post referencing my post, hence referencing me.

Then you say "Why do you keep arguing", which because of the above, makes "you" mean Me.

Therefore, since my post, which actually had something to do with this thread and not a continual reference to people's inablilty to read which the OP seems to be fixated on, and was Pro-defragmentation, is by implication and direct evidence, what you were referring to.

Oh god lol. Awesome fail logic big_smile

"His post is well-written" - nothing refers on you or your post. Yes, OP post is really well-written, that's it. Since some peolpe thinks that this whole thread is about "how hard to mine return us our afk-mining" etc, words "His post is well-written" are telling ppl to re-read them if they didn't understood the topic. Same with "Why do you keep arguing". To simplify that all - nothing refers to you until you're quoted or mentioned clearly.

Now, if you're finished with your logic exersize, can we get back to a topic?

This is much more interesting then a topic on alpha mining that isn't going to result in any changes anyway, and all the salinet points have been made anyway, so we either just let the topic die or keep bumping it with irrelevant posts. smile

That said, my logic is perfectly sound, you've just added another potential interpretation; there really are no absolutes in logic, just deductions that have high potentials of being accurate based on incomplete information.

49 (edited by Goffer 2012-06-08 22:06:27)

Re: Mining on alpha - no future?

I support the initial point to discuss the future of alpha mining, as all improvements with gamma patch will be lost forever, if mineral prices will rise to insane levels just because the  support of alpha minerals dries out.

I think it is a bit early, to gave final conclusions, but my experience is, that the amount of mineral I will mine per week will on long view drop significant. From the experience after path I expect my future mining amount to be ~1/5th than before patch and I bet I'm not the only miner for whom this will stay true. Together with the increased amount of resources needed for T3&T4 Equipment this will have significant effects on long time economy.
For me this is not the big deal, my storages are in good shape but for the game itself it will be quite drastical if equipment prices will rise again drastically due to increased ore prices.

To Dev Alf: I stop mining, when I don't have any more time (either need to log out directly, or have not enough time left to bring further ammo charges/haul additional ore back to terminal/need my miner back in terminal/...)
The amount of minerals left in spot I'm actually on is only weak reason and will only influence the time when I stop mining, when I decide that I don't have the time to change to next mineral spot if the actuall field is empty. No "Code of mining" will keep me online, if I need to go offline.

Re: Mining on alpha - no future?

It will be very hard to delinate the delta in mined amounts from before to post patch and apply that to the random spawing ore change.

Particulary, the increase in the volume of players mining, or online for that matter, makes alpha resources more scarce then pre-patch.

Basically, the number of accounts mining on the alpha islands has gone up. With greater competition for resources, individual yeilds will naturally decrease, but the overall availablity of ore on the market will increase.