Topic: PBS and Terraforming Feedback

as one of the ppl who has done a lot of testing with this stuff i want to give my feedback and concerns for what i have found out. btw this will be long:



Terraforming:
generally i enjoied this a lot. ok the whole process was way speeded up on the test server, but beiing able to form your landscape and build a fortress is pretty nice.
but there are some issues i want to adress and a lot things that i think can be made better:

first to say i think the terraforming still is not following the plan sometimes so even the plan says it should be flat or a clear edge. but the terraforming just says "done" even you still see something left in your terraforming plans.

second is that (as known) the movement on terraforemed (and unterraformed) land is not working correctly. the slope is shown that you can walk there but you cant walk over the tile. it was even often at sharp edges of a cliff that was totaly flat, but you could not walk to the edge and had an invisible wall that you could not pass.

these are 2 essential problems that need to be fixed.

For the process itself i have to say that i think that the radius af the terraforing beacons is a bit low. especially because the effect has a falloff. and with the round shape given the area where the beacon is effective is pretty small. of cource this was not su much of an issue on the test server with the speeded up process, but on the live server this will be a issue. ppl will simply place the beacons in very close proximity to be able to terraform efficiently and i think this is not the best game mechanic. i suggest removing the falloff on the beacons and increase the range of them by a bit (lets say 50% for gods sake).

The Terraforming Planer
we have some nice tools here, the ramp tool is important, but i think we need a lot more options here.

Undo Redo:
this is one of the most important features we need with the tool. just useing the "finish editing" button when you have reached a certain point is no fun. because some mistakes are hard to correct by hand. we defently need this so we can jump back as many steps as we need and continue where we see fit.

Geometrical shapes and instant placement
what i like to see as well is that we can edit the form of our brush. atm it is round and thats it. i would like to see a lot of options for designing your own brush. like regualar polygons (triangle, square, pentagon, hexagon, heptagon, octagon... aso.) maybe even a manual editor where you can set up your own brush by selecting the tiles that the brush should use.
one step ahead of this i would also see a bit more "mathematical" aproach on the terraforming.
ill give an example here.:
i want a square of 60x60 tiles flat at level 150m above zero (water level or from existing tile) with its center on a specific tile. the editos then should do this without useing any falloffs or slowly shaping the terrain. it simply set that area to that absolutly straight and perfect flattened. using such a tool that is also showing you highlighted how the change will be, you can use these tool very nicely to build the shapes you want. setting the base ground for your structiures, adding "walls" like " set square 20x5 tiles, hight 50m (from zero or from existing tile selectable) and so on and so on. so you have your form that you wnt selected and as you move over the terrain with your mouse you will see the form as it will be placed there with the hight that you want it. a single click will then perform the action.
the same yould be done with ramps. width=5tiles length=20tiles angle=40°. set here. free rotatable in 90° steps

this is only the scratch, but having the option to form things in your way without going through the prozess of doing all that stuff manual with raise, lower and leveling and take hours just to get the sharp edges that you want would realy be a great help and would make up new options for the players.



Concrete Layer
this is also a thing thats need some more love. and i think we need some more options here.

concrete is an important thing so that your base is not spammed with plants at places that you dont want them to be. and it should be a "permanent" thing for the base builder, so that the concrete will not disapear on your ramp once the first enemy bot pops there.
also the placement was a pain in the a(ss) with hundrets of "right click" and "deploy".

placing and also destroying concrete on the test server could cause a immense ammount of lag so this is not a thing that should happen in the middle of a fight multible times.

my solution:
2 kinds of concrete:
the standart that we have atm. will pop at dmg and can be placed everywhere.
and
Hard Concrete:
can only be used by the outpost owner in a 3km radius around any outpost or any reactor (not any other structure).
using a hard concrete layer module that uses hard concrete layer charges. (1,5 sec cycle time. 250 charges can be equiped in module). also there will be hard concrete removal charges that also can only be used by the outpost owner in the same radius. only other thing that will remove it will be terraforming.
the existing ones would be also used in the same modules but with no limitations as the existion one has.
hard concrete will overwrite "normal" concrete if layed over it.



PBS Network

most important bug we found:
if a turret is boosted with sensor strengh (that will increase its range) the initial locking range is not increased. means if (for example) the base range and locking rang of the turret is 600m and the booster bring it up to 900m then it still only starts locking you at 600m. if you then move back it will keep you locked and shoot at you till you get out of the max range and he loses lock (900m). this is a bug and makes range bootsing of turrets quite useless.

in generall i like the building of the network. but i have found some things that i think needs to be changed.

my greatest consern were the structure hps but that was changed multible times by now.

i have some other problems that likit the way of the network:

in genereral i thinl that a lot of connection ranges are too small, so you often cant simply place all the stuff together that you want, or need so that the sturcture will fullfill its purpuse. but more on this on the specific structures.

Repair Node
this is one of the most most useless buildings atm. its connection range is way to small. it should have at least the same range as a energy transfer node (maybe even a bit more). also i think that a few more outgoing and incomming connections would not hurt. even more important is that 2 repair nodes can not repair each other because you can only have one link between 2 buildings. this also meas you can not repair a energy node that provides the power for the repair node. and that also means that 2 repair nodes can not repair each other. together with the range limitation of the repair nodes and the space all the buildings need with their sizes and their connection radiuses it is nearly impossible to place repair nodes all around your most important infastructure.

also the ammount the repair nodes repairs is way too small. they can not be boosted for faster cycle time as far as i have seen and even if the number if incomming connections would not allow to do this efficiently. the same goes for useing multible repair nodes on one building. it would be fine with turrets, cause you would just have to cut down on boosters, but the small connection radius of the repair nodes make it impossible here again.

another big problem comes together with energy transer nodes and energy backbones:

Energy Transfer and Backbones
on the first impression i thought its ok the way it is. but there are a few things when you look more closely that are realy a problem. i dont complain about the ammount the nodes transfer (as long as the number given in the description is is ammount transferd per outgoing connection and that this is not split by the number) the range is ok (backbones could have a bit more) and the number of outgoing connections should work. the realy bad thing is the number of incomming connections. especially for the backbones. these are important structures that are essential for any attack on the network. once they fall your network falls, and with this your outpost shortly after. the 2 incomming connections are needed for energy transfer. so there is no change you can boost their resistances and/or repair them. so i greatly suggest to greatly increase the number of incoming connections on all energy structures. incomming cnnections will not help you that much for your ennergy distribution, but you will be able to add resists and repair, that  think is essential.

Facilities and Facility upgrades
i am a friend of geometrical shaped and of a well structured network. but its totaly not possible to form a usefull network with all facilities at one outpost without placing them close and circular around the outpost. the reason is the way to short connection radius of them. and you need to connect them to the outpost. or they will have no effect. my suggestion is to give the facilities a bigger connection radius. i suggest to give them the same radius that the outposts have. with this you can place them within the connection radius of the outpost.

the facility upgrades are one of my most hated things. you defenetly need them at a maximum number for your facilities. the problem that i have, is not that you need them, but that you need so damn many and that they use so damn much space in your base. the area the boster need is enourmous especialy because they also need energy for what you need more structures that need even more room.
i have 3 solutions for this:
less space requirement: make them 1 tile in size and not 3x3. you already need a spare tile between all the structures even if most of them have walkable tiles around them.
increase outgoing connections: just handle them similar to boofster. 10 or better 20 outgoing connections will greatly reduse the field of upgrades that you will need. make them more expensive if you want or make a new upgrade structure with more connections. preferable a multipication of 5. yes i like networks, but i think 40 upgrade modules for 8 facilities is a bit overpowering. especially when you see the room they need. even with 20 outgonging connections you will still need 10 bosters for your base... still a lot enough i think.
last solution that i dnot like that much: decrease incomming connections of the facilities and increase the bonus from the upgrades. i dont like this, you might know whey when you have read the thing about energy transmitter above...


the other structures are fine as far as i think for the moment. cant say that much for turrets and if their dmg is ok, but we will see that after some sieges on the trst server.

a general thing that i dont realy like is that you always need a free tile between the structures. i like  compact placements and any free room spreadys this further appart.

The Structure Network Screen
one big problem i had after a while is that there will be too many connections and tha they will overlap each other in a way that you have a hard way in seeing anything usefull at all. here we need options to just show a specific type of connections and just not to show the others. there should be a display dield to the right where you can check and uncheck the connections: energy, command, booster, facility, upgrades

The Structure Network Planer
that one is not bad but has one big issue:
when you place a building in the planer you should see if that can be build there. atm it does not check if there is enough room between the structures or if they are overlaping. it works if there already is a built structure. if you cant place it there then the planed structure shown red. but if both structures are not built yet then you do not see if they can be put there.
i also think there should be a option to show the terrain in the structure planer, and as well if a structure can be placed there (slopes).

so far so good. i might have forgotten some stuff, but that might come later then...
zort

2 (edited by Zortarg Calltar 2012-05-30 14:07:50)

Re: PBS and Terraforming Feedback

p.s.:

- structures that are placed on the ground should be able to be picked up again if accidently placed on the wrong tile. atm you have to construct and then deconstruct again.

- your network plan should be able to be shown as hologram (higher transparency and maybe other color) on the field if you choose to.

update 3:

very importat thing i forgot:
the structure network need a agression mechanic. if someone attacks the network that is friendly towards it then the network has to set him/her/it hostile for a specific (not too short) ammount of time.
this will be essential or spies in the alliance will be able to bring the network down with am minimum ammount of effort.

Re: PBS and Terraforming Feedback

An interesting read Zortag, from a corp that certainly built an impressive gamma base. Energy transfer structures is one of the bits of PBS I tested and your point about number of connections I completely agree with. Not really in a position to comment on your other points.

I was able to wander around and dock up in REMEDY HQ when the zones were frozen and your huge array of turrets didn't vapourise me and I was truly impressed, good work. I think there was one thing missing, however ...

... flower beds. If you'd left a strip of non-concrete on either side of your walkways you could have had created some lovely avenues of colour. smile

Re: PBS and Terraforming Feedback

I skipped some sections as it was very long, but well thought out and totally agree with the range of facilities being too short +1

RIP PERPETUUM

Re: PBS and Terraforming Feedback

nice post big_smile +1

6 (edited by Line 2012-05-30 15:24:21)

Re: PBS and Terraforming Feedback

Good post, just a little question to Facilities section - isn't Control Towers (or whatever they called) do increase your possible connection range? I mean, similar to Energy Nodes.

Have a productive day, runner!
R.I.P. Chenoa, you'll never be forgotten.
DEV Zoom: Line, sorry, I was away for christmas.
http://perp-kill.net/?m=view&id=252086

Re: PBS and Terraforming Feedback

Ludlow Bursar wrote:

... flower beds. If you'd left a strip of non-concrete on either side of your walkways you could have had created some lovely avenues of colour. smile


now that could be very cool smile

@ OP agree with what you said particularly in regard to repair nodes.

True Pros make a Podcast to influence the Devs minds, 
The rest of you guys are Hacks tongue

PS. I got my Highways & stopped playing b4 they came in & have never used them! ...... Irony much ? tongue

8 (edited by Zortarg Calltar 2012-05-30 15:50:36)

Re: PBS and Terraforming Feedback

Line wrote:

Good post, just a little question to Facilities section - isn't Control Towers (or whatever they called) do increase your possible connection range? I mean, similar to Energy Nodes.

its not about the control. control is provided by every link. may it be energy or may it be just a booster.

the problem is that the facilities have to be linked on the terminal or the terminal will not have that facility. and the conection radius from the facilities is very small. way smaller then the connection radius of a ternminal (a terminal only provides command). a control tower can only link this command to a place further away. so you may be able to place a a reactor with a miningtower or defenses there.

Re: PBS and Terraforming Feedback

Excellent summary.

Was curious if:

if a turret is boosted with sensor strengh (that will increase its range) the initial locking range is not increased. means if (for example) the base range and locking rang of the turret is 600m and the booster bring it up to 900m then it still only starts locking you at 600m. if you then move back it will keep you locked and shoot at you till you get out of the max range and he loses lock (900m). this is a bug and makes range bootsing of turrets quite useless.

This sounds more like a turret detection range issue and not lock range, since it can maintain a lock out to 900m as advertised.

Re: PBS and Terraforming Feedback

Then IMO that connection to a terminal should be transfered with those control towers exactly, that will solve.

Have a productive day, runner!
R.I.P. Chenoa, you'll never be forgotten.
DEV Zoom: Line, sorry, I was away for christmas.
http://perp-kill.net/?m=view&id=252086

Re: PBS and Terraforming Feedback

about the sensor boosting of turrets:

Its providing the effect of a Remote Sensor Amp + ECCM.
I agree with the fact that turret AI is as dumb as standard NPC AI and needs some work. This is the main flaw of the Defense Turrets.

about the incomming connection issue with many buildings - i agree, but my solution would be a different one:

connections = equipment slots -> seperate them like we have different slots on robots.

Example: ET Backbone
- 2 incomming power slots
- 2 incomming booster slots
- 1 incomming control slot

This would also solve the issue where you cannot tell a booster-node to boost its own energy transmitter.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: PBS and Terraforming Feedback

Annihilator wrote:

about the sensor boosting of turrets:

Its providing the effect of a Remote Sensor Amp + ECCM.
I agree with the fact that turret AI is as dumb as standard NPC AI and needs some work. This is the main flaw of the Defense Turrets.

about the incomming connection issue with many buildings - i agree, but my solution would be a different one:

connections = equipment slots -> seperate them like we have different slots on robots.

Example: ET Backbone
- 2 incomming power slots
- 2 incomming booster slots
- 1 incomming control slot

This would also solve the issue where you cannot tell a booster-node to boost its own energy transmitter.

this thought also crossed my mind, but i think its better to let the players choose how they want to use the slots. if you limit it then player will do exacly this. if you leave it open they might come up with other intresting useage that you have not thought of at the beginning.

Re: PBS and Terraforming Feedback

you could say the same about robots and their module slots.

i want a missile slots on my seth for 24 month already... do i get them? big_smile

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: PBS and Terraforming Feedback

i would like to konw if this was noted by the devs and if this or at least some things were taken into considertion.

Re: PBS and Terraforming Feedback

It would be nice if there were some adjustments to come out of all the time we spent testing smile