26 (edited by Sundial 2012-05-21 17:57:09)

Re: Why Perp needs a plex-type system

Eh, knowing you blew up someones 500M T4+ mk2 heavy mech they bought with Plex makes it all the more satisfying.

Im currently playing EVE and the Plex system allowed me as a new player to get alot of ISK without grinding which I then turned around and invested / did market stuff with. It completely supports my spending / PvP habits. Eventually I will be able to earn enough ISK to pay for my sub and play EVE for free. Once you have it all in Perp what is there to do (Especially if you are in a communist corp). Look at CIR, they had huge stockpiles of everything and had no real goal left where as with a Plex system they could work towards paying their corps subs.

Maybe perps market is not yet ready for Plex, but I hardly see how the system is a negative for that other game on a larger scale. It helps both new players and veterans.

It also encourages you to make more money with less accounts where as in Perpetuum you just spam accounts to make NIC. We are saying Plex is P2W but not this? Really?

Looking forward to new players and new conflicts.

Re: Why Perp needs a plex-type system

It doesn't sound like Zoom is against a plex type system, simply that at this time the player base isn't large enough to justify having it.

*Small base = fragile market and economy

Exchanging money for time is exactly what money is for. As my friend said about buying WoW-gold "I don't have 10hrs a week to grind gold, I'd rather spend my time having fun."

When (crosses fingers) Perp gets bigger, there WILL be NIC farmers that will create an out-of-game NIC RTS site.

When that happens, is when AC doesn't have the luxury of not implementing a plex system.

From a producer's view point, the inflation scenrio is as follows:

Combat guys farm NIC and sell plex. Players selling Plex use it to buy bots and modules so they can PVP, have fun, without any grind.

Indy players, also wanting to play for free, need to make NIC so they can buy plexes too, in competition with the combat guys.

Since players now have lots of NIC from selling plex, indy raise prices.

With rising bot prices, casual PVP bot buyers raise the sell price of PLEX, so they can continue to buy bots and modules. Lots of NIC is being pumped into the market from combat farming, and that is flowing to Indy, so both are able to afford the new higher Plex prices. However, the indy player can't just 'farm more NIC", the only way for them to make more NIC is to sell more bots or sell them at a higher prices. Since the PVP players are already buying large voumes of bots, because the effort to get them is solely dependant on their wallet and not on time, there's no more volume increase, so prices again have to increase.

Eventually, the combat farmers max their per/hr gain, but the indy guys keep raising prices.

*Note that Indy is BOTH factory and Marketeer's.

And then, as Zoom has now predicted, the only way to afford a bot now, is to sell plex. You can't even build your own, since miners have raised prices accordingly too (so they too can play for free).

tl;dr - In a player run market, simply focusing on how much NIC/hr combat players can earn to buy plex to play free is ignoring the industrial side, which only generates NIC from the player base itself, which will lead to inflation.

28 (edited by Sundial 2012-05-21 19:27:09)

Re: Why Perp needs a plex-type system

I wasn't criticizing what Zoom said, just the general attitude against Plex and that it will ruin Perpetuum requiring you to buy it to be viable. This is completely wrong. Its a convenience just like multiple accounts is. Its funny people turn a blind eye to multiple accounts but then suddenly criticize Plex as soon as it is mentioned.

But all good points as usual Arga. yarr

Looking forward to new players and new conflicts.

Re: Why Perp needs a plex-type system

Regarding EVE, since the PLEX are on a market that can be influenced by player trading, it is interesting to note that as of the latest Fanfest, the thin edge of the wedge crept in regarding the "player directed environment".  CCP admitted in the Economics report that they might have to watchdog and potentially implement controls on PLEX trading, since they had characters with trillions of isk in the game.  The inference is that characters with truly titanic amounts of game currency could play price-fixing games with isk, which translates to having control over the conversion factor between Real Life money and game currency.

That amount of control, they rightly do not wish to leave to players.

While there may be some minor advantages to isk, the worry that the value of isk may not exactly match the overall inflation rate in the game is apparently causing them concern.

If the disparity became large, it would massively influence the  movement of other in-game goods that could be purchased by isk as well.

I would imagine that there might be some players in Perpetuum that could amass (or have already amassed) a vast amount of NIC compared to any that an influx of new players would have.  If the relative amount of PerpLEX (Perpetuum Licensed EXploitation, of course) was not a lot, then such a player or consortium could start the fixing process before the population had a chance to grow.

Not that anyone would do that, of course.  wink

Certainly, for the reasons quoted in the Dev posts, I'd entirely agree that introducing a PerpLEX system to a small player base (possibly one with a very unequal distribution of wealth) could cause many problems.

Should the Devs feel that the game can stand it, when the population is much larger and the market is robust, they could always revisit the idea.

30 (edited by Blackomen 2012-05-22 08:01:43)

Re: Why Perp needs a plex-type system

I've always been torn on this topic. On one hand a PLEX system allows the developers to make more money while hindering RMT'ers somewhat.

On the other hand, Zoom is correct in that "PLEX IS PAY2WIN" not nearly as bad as say a cash shop is, were items come out of tin air with no player actions involved. But you still can use real money to gain an advantage over someone with less material wealth. That is by the very definition, Pay2win.

Now I've used PLEX's in eve since the first introduction of the old 30 and 90 day timecodes could be traded. But I still hated their addition to the game, even if I did play for free for years because of it. In perpetuum I'm also filthy stinking rich and could play for free with a dozen or so accounts eventually if they added this. But I also feel it would ruin the game somewhat, as someone out there could simply put in say a thousand dollars, and would have a army of best fitted heavies that could constantly attack another corp without fear of losses and the defenders would be unable to replace the losses due to the monopoly guy(s) in another corp.

It's got both major pros and major cons to the system. If I honestly had to choose, I would go with Zoom on this and say to avoid this system altogether, forever. Yes RMT'ers will "eventually" cause similar issues, but those will exist even with a PLEX system in place, and two major problems is worse than one.

My two cents on the issue.

Oldest player still in the game. Perpetuum for life.
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Re: Why Perp needs a plex-type system

Just to be clear, I didn't say never, just that the time is definitely not right for it. But neither me nor the other devs are expert enough in virtual economics to tell whether it would be a definitely good or bad thing in the future. When the time comes we need to hire someone who is good at that smile

Re: Why Perp needs a plex-type system

Never really liked the idea of a plex, it was the precursor to the whole MT stuff in stEVE. Its a slippery slope and one in which devs start to tread leads to all sorts of nonesence. And however you think about it, it leads to players only engaging in one aspect of the sandbox be it PVP or something else they simply pay to aviod all other aspects of the sandbox. Lastly, i don't believe that stEVE has ever got that genie under control and still dont think they have.

33 (edited by Sundial 2012-05-22 16:39:20)

Re: Why Perp needs a plex-type system

If we draw the line that Plex is Pay2Win, we should also outlaw having multiple accounts. A corp of 100 active guys with no alts vs a corp of 100 active guys with 2 alts each will get smoked.

The only thing is multiple accounts are unenforceable, but so is RMT if the game grows alot.

So on one hand the supper rich guy buys $2000 of plex, on the other he buys $2000 NIC from nic farmers. The choice here is pretty clear to me. Plex is the lesser of two evils and also has benefits to new players and veterans alike.

If there was a Plex system people would also be encouraged to have less alts because paying for all of them would take more time grinding. Instead of having a bunch of alts initially, they might buy some Plex to get started financially in the game. Lets face it having 6 alts is the exact same as buying 6 plexes a month besides the fact someone else does the grinding.

Looking forward to new players and new conflicts.

34 (edited by Lemon 2012-05-22 16:50:42)

Re: Why Perp needs a plex-type system

Here is food for thought.

I currently have 12 total accounts only 6 are active. My 6 that are active is all i can afford to keep active currently.

Considering that a billion nic is a weeks worth of work for me i think depending on prices of plex i would be able to easily resub the rest of my accounts.

With the full fleet the amount of nic/hr i could generate would go through to roof as currently my mining fleet is inactive and i simply keep my combat accounts subbed.

Should i be able to even kick start them for a month after bankrolling it with my combats i could easily leverage them perma mining in my downtime to pay for all of my accounts subscriptions.

*Now yes i know this is much more extreme than most players would do*

However currently the relation of casuals to die hards is greatly in favor of die hards and i think its safe to assume the bulk of us would do something similar to this. I have no stEVE experiance so i dont know how it is over there but if i take note back to the Isboxer discussions. Now 5-15% of the player population using it isnt game breaking or a large deal but when you know 30-40% will and they will easily overwhelm the 60% not doing it, this is when you run in to issues.

Undefeated 2013
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Re: Why Perp needs a plex-type system

Sundial wrote:

If we draw the line that Plex is Pay2Win, we should also outlaw having multiple accounts. A corp of 100 active guys with no alts vs a corp of 100 active guys with 2 alts each will get smoked.

The only thing is multiple accounts are unenforceable, but so is RMT if the game grows alot.

So on one hand the supper rich guy buys $2000 of plex, on the other he buys $2000 NIC from nic farmers. The choice here is pretty clear to me. Plex is the lesser of two evils and also has benefits to new players and veterans alike.

If there was a Plex system people would also be encouraged to have less alts because paying for all of them would take more time grinding. Instead of having a bunch of alts initially, they might buy some Plex to get started financially in the game. Lets face it having 6 alts is the exact same as buying 6 plexes a month besides the fact someone else does the grinding.

You are basically saying plex is much easier and quicker vs multiple accounts, therefore plex is much more powerful P2W. You can define multiple account as P2W but we need to draw the line somewhere. What's next? 3 monitors and better hardware is P2W?

RIP PERPETUUM

Re: Why Perp needs a plex-type system

NIC alone does not fight/win wars.

IMO It is pay to win as soon as what you are buying comes out of thin air.

Looking forward to new players and new conflicts.

Re: Why Perp needs a plex-type system

Player A and B both have 10 hours a week play time.

Player A farms and buys his/her own bots and modules, and can only afford T1 in their 10 hours, and still have time to actually PVP.

Player B sells Plex, and buys all T4. They also PVP all 10 hours, losing many times the bots of player A.

Player B has a significant advantage, in that they get alot more practice, they are more able to test different fits, and take many more chances than player A.

Is that p2w? If you define RMT as buying and advantage, then it is very much p2w.

Also, given that the difference between T1 and T4 gear is much higher then the difference between level 8 and level 9, if Player A and B are within 40 days EP, then player B will fully have the paid advantage of T4.

Is plex as big of a p2w as buying EP or some other type of RMT like bonus's for cash, no - I guess the worst you could call it is soft-p2w. And I would agree, this is no "worse" then owning multiple accounts, which is also soft-p2w. But it is different then multiple accounts, since in theory you could do BOTH plex and multiple accounts; do 2 softs make a hard?

38 (edited by Celebro 2012-05-22 22:34:09)

Re: Why Perp needs a plex-type system

There is still discussions about plex pros and cons:

http://blessingofkings.blogspot.com/201 … rt-ii.html

http://tagn.wordpress.com/2012/05/03/op … -cheating/


Edit: Plex was introduced in eve in 2008, before that, buying isk from RMTer's was frowned upon by CCP and considered cheating. Now it's ok because CCP supports buying isk, but only if they get the cash.

RIP PERPETUUM

Re: Why Perp needs a plex-type system

RMT was sanctioned before that for GTC trading, and there were official methods of doing that.

I think you can lay part of the blame for the profileration of supercaps and titans in EVE on official RMT.

40 (edited by GLiMPSE 2012-05-24 19:35:07)

Re: Why Perp needs a plex-type system

DEV Zoom wrote:
Tamas Vitez wrote:

BUT he is not getting an item that could not be obtainable otherwise, he is only getting a lot of NIC. And what can he do with that NIC ? Buy the same items anybody else can, so where is the real advantage ? Because I do not see it.

When someone finds an exploit in the game to get billions of NIC, he isn't getting anything that the others can't either. The advantage is something people tend to forget about, time. You buy the time that you or your corporation would have spent farming otherwise.

Tamas Vitez wrote:

Also, with the PLEX system in place NIC is not generated out of thin air, it is just changing hands.

That's true, NIC is not generated from nowhere, it's flowing into the hands of those who can spend the most real money. With our fragile economy we have already seen monopolies without such a system too, imagine what would happen if we would have it.

There is little difference between paying for 10 accounts to strip mine and sell as there is to allowing people that want to "pay2win" as you call it to have massive amounts of nic. If people with lots of money want lots of NIC they will get it... probably with the same set of skills that made them so much RL Money.

What this would do is curb communism and push more people to a more capitalistic mentality. It would also create contention over things that make lots of money... as it is right now.. once you have so much NIC... NIC means nothing. If NIC meant not having to spend 10 bucks a month it'd still have value to the extremely wealthy in-game and may drive old players back to playing giving them a reason to play...as sad as this sounds...being able to use your ability to be good at the game to not have to pay for the game is enticing.

Re: Why Perp needs a plex-type system

Yes, there are actually 2 main differences. One is that it's not enough to just pay for 10 accounts, you still have to do something with them. And two, we can simply choose not to implement a plex system to avoid a potential problem, whereas it would be very hard to limit multiaccounting.

Re: Why Perp needs a plex-type system

Blackomen wrote:

I've always been torn on this topic. On one hand a PLEX system allows the developers to make more money while hindering RMT'ers somewhat.

On the other hand, Zoom is correct in that "PLEX IS PAY2WIN" not nearly as bad as say a cash shop is, were items come out of tin air with no player actions involved. But you still can use real money to gain an advantage over someone with less material wealth. That is by the very definition, Pay2win.

Now I've used PLEX's in eve since the first introduction of the old 30 and 90 day timecodes could be traded. But I still hated their addition to the game, even if I did play for free for years because of it. In perpetuum I'm also filthy stinking rich and could play for free with a dozen or so accounts eventually if they added this. But I also feel it would ruin the game somewhat, as someone out there could simply put in say a thousand dollars, and would have a army of best fitted heavies that could constantly attack another corp without fear of losses and the defenders would be unable to replace the losses due to the monopoly guy(s) in another corp.

It's got both major pros and major cons to the system. If I honestly had to choose, I would go with Zoom on this and say to avoid this system altogether, forever. Yes RMT'ers will "eventually" cause similar issues, but those will exist even with a PLEX system in place, and two major problems is worse than one.

My two cents on the issue.

If i sent you 1000 RL dollars to give me your money in game so I could buy this army of best fitted heavies...i could have them...

The point is moot if someone wants to spend 1000 dollars to win at a game they're going to do it whether it's legit or not. Allowing the dev's to eat steak instead of potato's because it's controlled and done through them isn't a bad thing.

What PLEX system will cause though is a harder to predict monthly income model as you'll see large influxes of plex's  being purchased and not necessarily redeemed...or redeemed and not purchased depending on the eb and flow of when people choose to 'cash in'.

43 (edited by GLiMPSE 2012-05-24 19:42:58)

Re: Why Perp needs a plex-type system

DEV Zoom wrote:

Yes, there are actually 2 main differences. One is that it's not enough to just pay for 10 accounts, you still have to do something with them. And two, we can simply choose not to implement a plex system to avoid a potential problem, whereas it would be very hard to limit multiaccounting.

So people that have lots of time and lots of money get an advantage?

That sounds worse then pay2win...and very elitist..

Re: Why Perp needs a plex-type system

So you're arguing to have two pay2win systems because we already have one, so what the hell?

Re: Why Perp needs a plex-type system

DEV Zoom wrote:

So you're arguing to have two pay2win systems because we already have one, so what the hell?

Sounds good -- what the hell -- get it done.

Will this feature be released with PBS?

46 (edited by GLiMPSE 2012-05-24 19:51:56)

Re: Why Perp needs a plex-type system

I mean c'mon, if we've established there's already a precedent -- what's the issue?

Do we not want more people to be actively playing to try and actively make money to keep accounts active without actively working in real life?

That's what games are here for to get people playing -- and what better way then to give a way for the unemployed hobbiest to slip further and further down the rabbit hole?


See what I did there w/ the active thing? ;-)

Smooches.

Re: Why Perp needs a plex-type system

I know I will get rotten tomatoes thrown at me for this.

In the end, I dont want to see Perp become F2P because pay to win is next arround the corner.

I do not consider having multiple accounts to be pay to win since you still need skill to make each account successful in their profession, if all players are on a level playing field, multiple accounts or not.  I would rather be a losing noob and learn the skills needed to win than to be able to buy gear you cant find in game naturally so i can beat some one like Lemon or Arga. Also on the flip side, once veterans get the RL money items, the only way to defeat them is to have RL money items your self, or attempt to outnumber the person / squad to the point they are completely over whelmed.  And the second takes away from the game and many people would leave.

Hey

Re: Why Perp needs a plex-type system

Heyterlo wrote:

I know I will get rotten tomatoes thrown at me for this.

In the end, I dont want to see Perp become F2P because pay to win is next arround the corner.

I do not consider having multiple accounts to be pay to win since you still need skill to make each account successful in their profession, if all players are on a level playing field, multiple accounts or not.  I would rather be a losing noob and learn the skills needed to win than to be able to buy gear you cant find in game naturally so i can beat some one like Lemon or Arga. Also on the flip side, once veterans get the RL money items, the only way to defeat them is to have RL money items your self, or attempt to outnumber the person / squad to the point they are completely over whelmed.  And the second takes away from the game and many people would leave.

Hey

No one was talking about real life money items to my knowledge.. The only thing being discussed or should be at least.. because it's relevant.. is the possibility to buy/sell time codes in the in-game market.

Re: Why Perp needs a plex-type system

using nic to buy / sell time codes makes even less sence to me than a cash shop.  hmm   maybe im just too tight with my RL money and nic.

50 (edited by Ville 2012-05-25 03:36:20)

Re: Why Perp needs a plex-type system

*edit: Offensive. - DEV Zoom

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