1 Topic by Sundial (edited by Sundial 2012-05-09 20:10:00)

  • AIC
  • Agent
  • Offline

Topic: Light Combat Bots: What is their intended role?

Lets take a look at light combat bots, their slot layouts, and where they fit into perpetuum.

Advantages:

a. Slope Capacity
b. Speed

Disadvantages:

a. Locking range is almost as short as optimal range (not normally a problem, but read on)
b. Limited amount of slots 1/2 universal layout. Compare to 4/2 and 3/3 layout of assault bots, these guys are a huge step below assault bots (more than the step from heavy mech to mech)
c. Cost at market is only 50k or so under an assault. Why not just buy an assault?
d. To be able to apply any of their DPS, they must sacrifice all utility (Amp in the head slot) and cannot fit any tuners.

So where does that leave light bots role? Currently newbies are encouraged to get into an assault and simply leave these behind as if they are some kind of "newbie" bot like an arke. Sure they have higher speed and better slop capacity but these two things will only take them so far when they are inferior in almost every other way to a large degree. I am not saying lets make assaults inferior but saying we should bring light bots inline with what seems to be their intended role (fast & agile DPS).

I propose we add a little flavor to them and make them more than they are now:

a. Increase amount of slots from 1/2 to 2/3 (Yagel) and 3/2 (Castel). Not sure how to Prometheus would be setup but it would either be 3/2 or 2/3.
b. Increase CPU/Reactor accordingly
c. If there is a discrepancy in the building costs between the two classes it should be removed (lights should be cheaper by a significant amount)
d. We need more variety in weapons for light/assault bots. Long range / Short range weapons. Let them fit and specialize their roles instead of a "one size fits all" solution.

I simply wish to see light bots viable for some kind of respectable task and not simply use assaults fitted like light bots for everything. We already have far too few bots in the game, having a whole tier of useless bots is not helping fitting variety / choices especially for new players.

Keep feedback constructive please.

Looking forward to new players and new conflicts.
  • CIR
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: Light Combat Bots: What is their intended role?

Ok, trying to remain constructive here smile

Your current arguement is basically:

"The assaults are better and only incrementally more, so there's no reason to use a light bot."

Where I run into a problem, is that the only way to remedy that arguement, is to make the light bots as useful as the assaults.

But then the problem gets reversed, meaning "If lights are cheaper and just as effective as assaults, then there's no reason to use an assault."

Examples:

Assault does more damage then the light bot - So, how much MORE dps does the light have to do to make up for 50k? If you increase the damage to 80% of an assualt, but keep it faster and more slope, then, because speed is king, and you can get 'almost' as much dps from the light, the assault now gets sidelined.

Tl;dr - To make lights better, you also have to boost up assaults so they stay relevant, but then they're too close to mechs, so those need to be improved... and all that ends up happening, is the entire scale slides upwards.

3 Reply by Sundial (edited by Sundial 2012-05-09 21:29:33)

  • AIC
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: Light Combat Bots: What is their intended role?

Arga wrote:

Ok, trying to remain constructive here smile

Your current arguement is basically:

"The assaults are better and only incrementally more, so there's no reason to use a light bot."

Where I run into a problem, is that the only way to remedy that arguement, is to make the light bots as useful as the assaults.

But then the problem gets reversed, meaning "If lights are cheaper and just as effective as assaults, then there's no reason to use an assault."

Examples:

Assault does more damage then the light bot - So, how much MORE dps does the light have to do to make up for 50k? If you increase the damage to 80% of an assualt, but keep it faster and more slope, then, because speed is king, and you can get 'almost' as much dps from the light, the assault now gets sidelined.

Tl;dr - To make lights better, you also have to boost up assaults so they stay relevant, but then they're too close to mechs, so those need to be improved... and all that ends up happening, is the entire scale slides upwards.

Mechs are decently close to heavy mechs but people still use both (They both have roles in the game). Thats the same kind of balance I wan't for light bots but currently they barely have any niche at all. When they buffed mech locking range, they didn't also buff heavy mechs and every other bot. Why should they just because they adjust one bot? It was only mechs that were in need of adjustment in that area in that specific context. People did not suddenly stop using heavy mechs.

Assaults would still be relevant. They have more head slots (more utility, higher potential DPS compounded by having 5 gun slots which makes tuners more effective). Don't forget the different bonuses of the Baphomet and waspish compared to their light bot.

You also have the issue that light bots are very boring to fit (no room for utility / secret sauce). This makes them rather one dimensional. We need more choices...

My argument is not so much about cost:performance ratio as it is that light bots need some love to fufill a viable role in the game.

Looking forward to new players and new conflicts.
  • CIR
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: Light Combat Bots: What is their intended role?

Sundial wrote:

need some love to fufill a viable role in the game.

Mothers day is coming up, plenty of love to go around.

  • PHM
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: Light Combat Bots: What is their intended role?

Reads Subject, Response:  To get killed.

Steam achievement Unlocked:  Being a Badass
http://www.perp-kill.net/kill/239407
Dev Zoom: I think its time to confess, Ville is my alt
Dev Zoom: Ville can be sometimes so sane it's scary.

6 Reply by Sundial (edited by Sundial 2012-05-09 22:10:17)

  • AIC
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: Light Combat Bots: What is their intended role?

I hate to compare light bots here to frigates in EVE but damn are frigates a million times funner to fly.

People are going to hate on me as usual for the comparisons to EVE but the facts are facts: Frigates are fun, light bots are rusty tin cans filled with wet noodles (besides some nasty Prometheus fitss but those are besides the point).

Looking forward to new players and new conflicts.
  • PHM
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: Light Combat Bots: What is their intended role?

Did you see the tyrannos and waspish kill at  the same time?

Steam achievement Unlocked:  Being a Badass
http://www.perp-kill.net/kill/239407
Dev Zoom: I think its time to confess, Ville is my alt
Dev Zoom: Ville can be sometimes so sane it's scary.
  • BKK
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: Light Combat Bots: What is their intended role?

you say their better masking as mechs but same detection range, with their higher speed is worth nothing?

assaults are worse speed, less detection range, same masking.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear
  • AIC
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: Light Combat Bots: What is their intended role?

Annihilator wrote:

you say their better masking as mechs but same detection range, with their higher speed is worth nothing?

assaults are worse speed, less detection range, same masking.

Sure bring one light bot detector and no other light bots, as thats what tends to happen on most roams of variable sizes.

Looking forward to new players and new conflicts.
  • DREAM
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: Light Combat Bots: What is their intended role?

This is a cheap combat robot with high speed and slope capability... Wanna terminator-bot? Well... Use more advanced models.

In EvE nobody cares about role such items like "milk".

The theory of mutual interests
Why the crybabies wins?
Где Ханя - там победа (с)
DEV Zoom: No need to speculate...
  • AIC
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: Light Combat Bots: What is their intended role?

Hunter wrote:

This is a cheap combat robot with high speed and slope capability... Wanna terminator-bot? Well... Use more advanced models.

In EvE nobody cares about role such items like "milk".

Its just slightly less expensive than an assault bot in reality. Just because its fast and has good slope capability doesn't mean it should have 0 fitting options.

Looking forward to new players and new conflicts.
  • BKK
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: Light Combat Bots: What is their intended role?

well, you need more member to see the benefits of the zerg-class

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

13 Reply by Sundial (edited by Sundial 2012-05-10 20:03:37)

  • AIC
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: Light Combat Bots: What is their intended role?

Annihilator wrote:

well, you need more member to see the benefits of the zerg-class

Seems like designating the lightbot to the "zerg-class" means the whole class must be useless unless used in a zerg.

We have far too few robots in the game, can we really afford to designate it that with so few robots available?

I think the Arke should be the zerg class bot.

Looking forward to new players and new conflicts.
  • BKK
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: Light Combat Bots: What is their intended role?

if you go that way with your argumentation, then any bot ingame is to restricted and to expensive for it.

arkhe is a noob bot, not zerg bot....

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear
  • AIC
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: Light Combat Bots: What is their intended role?

So why would a zerg not use assault bots? They are about the same in cost and a day old player should be able to pilot it and do alot more than they could in a light bot.

Looking forward to new players and new conflicts.
  • CIR
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: Light Combat Bots: What is their intended role?

I'm having IRC flashbacks!

Scout bot, as posted above, seems to answer the opening question. It has a role, so it's not useless.

We've already determined from IRC that Sun simply wants the light to do more, there's no counter-arguement that will convince him otherwise, nor any valid arguement to acutally improve it.

But atleast I was able to fill a 15 min time gap before going of to lunch by responding,  o/   smile

  • BKK
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: Light Combat Bots: What is their intended role?

a little bit more?

assault contains:
3.20 x titanium
3.33 x isopropentol
3.75 x metachropin

~ 250% higher production costs then a light bot.

if you fill all slots - the aussault has ~twice as much modules to fit and replace after exploding.

IMHO... thats not "the same" costs....

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

18 Reply by Sundial (edited by Sundial 2012-05-10 21:06:47)

  • AIC
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: Light Combat Bots: What is their intended role?

Annihilator wrote:

a little bit more?

assault contains:
3.20 x titanium
3.33 x isopropentol
3.75 x metachropin

~ 250% higher production costs then a light bot.

if you fill all slots - the aussault has ~twice as much modules to fit and replace after exploding.

IMHO... thats not "the same" costs....

250% increase of almost nothing is still almost nothing.

@Arga: A scout bot with bonuses indicating it is a combat bot. Then again, we can't only look at bonus (The scarab for example). But reading the description it seems they are intended as combat bots.

Here I am sitting here around 1 year after I started playing, still using all the exact same bots besides the scarab as when I started playing. I made this topic in the hopes that we might have something new to mess around with while we wait for the devs to give me some new toys to fit / some more diversity in modules / bots and maybe more tiers.

That brings us to another topic: should only larger bots be the path of progression? Or should we eventually get more powerful bots in smaller sizes.

Looking forward to new players and new conflicts.
  • JOKE
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: Light Combat Bots: What is their intended role?

I agree somewhat with Sundial argument. 'light combats' have very little fitting options, an extra head slot would not hurt, as long as it remains slightly below the assault class. Having an extra slot will surely bring down the speed too.

RIP PERPETUUM
  • PHM
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: Light Combat Bots: What is their intended role?

http://perp-kill.net/?m=view&id=240107
http://perp-kill.net/?m=view&id=240106
http://perp-kill.net/?m=view&id=240108

This what a light bot can do.  I would have killed the trioar mk2 solo but, you know the Trioar mk2 is a highly balanced tackle bot.  So I had to call in back up.

I request that this topic be closed due to OPs ineffectiveness to login.  =P <3 Sundial.

Steam achievement Unlocked:  Being a Badass
http://www.perp-kill.net/kill/239407
Dev Zoom: I think its time to confess, Ville is my alt
Dev Zoom: Ville can be sometimes so sane it's scary.
  • -77-
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: Light Combat Bots: What is their intended role?

http://perp-kill.net/?m=view&id=731

<cough> lower the mat cost of MK2 lights <cough>

Participate, Congratulate cause everything else will be seen as HATE.
Max yellow max all skills lvl 10 min max for the win
  • AIC
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: Light Combat Bots: What is their intended role?

Yes the turtle Prometheus is good.

My argument at its core is light bots are not very versatile. Just because its possible to make a Prometheus nasty does not mean they are versatile.

Looking forward to new players and new conflicts.
  • -77-
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: Light Combat Bots: What is their intended role?

/ agree but if Mk2 lights were easily manu'd and not as pricey do to mats they would become more common sight imo. And If they do give the mk1 lights an extra head slot and leg slot ..... oh the Mk2s are now assaults with one less gun....

Participate, Congratulate cause everything else will be seen as HATE.
Max yellow max all skills lvl 10 min max for the win
  • AIC
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: Light Combat Bots: What is their intended role?

Khader Khan wrote:

/ agree but if Mk2 lights were easily manu'd and not as pricey do to mats they would become more common sight imo. And If they do give the mk1 lights an extra head slot and leg slot ..... oh the Mk2s are now assaults with one less gun....

I don't see how that is a problem, Mk2 mech is a heavy mech with 2 less guns. If other things have to be adjusted to keep assaults viable for a role thats fine. Ultimately I wish to have many options of the bot I take out.

Also the green and red light Mk2s have different bonus than assaults.

Looking forward to new players and new conflicts.