1 (edited by Lucius Marcellus 2012-05-14 09:01:03)

Topic: Recalibration of mineral, bot and module costs

It was stated in the devblog that bots would increase 'slightly' in price and that modules would decrease slightly in price. However, from my testing on the server (I have checked almost all bots but have only sampled some modules), both are significantly up.

1) Is the increase in module costs intentional? (the selected sample of modules that I've checked is up 50-200%)
2) Some bots have increased by significant amounts, is this intentional? (the bots I've checked are up 0-400%)

I can certainly see some people thinking that these increases sound insane. Perhaps the calibrations at the moment are not meant to be final? Or is this the direction intended?

(this post assumed that ore prices will remain constant and that the price of new ores will be the same as the factional equivalents)

Re: Recalibration of mineral, bot and module costs

It is all intended, however the components'  raw material requirement changed as well, and we calculated the material requirement based on the list of the commodities in the modules/robots not with all maxed extensions, and facilities, purely on raw data. Based on raw material count at 100% (what you see in the components list) most of the modules require less material, but robots require more.
The new commodity system is more like real component system. The non faction commodities have build blocks, defenseive materials, offensive materials, and energy/electricity commodities. The faction commodities have def/off/ene   and lack of basic build blocks.
These will be represented by a small icon on the picture of commodities, also faction commodities' picture will have faction colored border, and high end materials will have purple border. If not borders, then some other markings to recognize them.

"Rock is OP. Paper is okay." - Scissors

Re: Recalibration of mineral, bot and module costs

I hope you change it.  That will kill PvP even deader.  People already run from fights most of the time terrified of losing their very hard earned t3/t4 fittings and bots.  The big zerg corps like STC will only fight if they outnumber people 2 or 3 to 1 for fear of losing a bot.  I think cost has a LOT to do with that.  Increasing costs 4x sounds ridiculous.

Population graphs

<GM Synapse> please don't abuse our fresh players before blowing them up. And for god sakes, don't do that after it!

Re: Recalibration of mineral, bot and module costs

Based on raw material count at 100% (what you see in the components list) most of the modules require less material, but robots require more.

The 100% commodity is the 'unobtainable' perfect factory, so all production can hope for is to approach the 100%.

I haven't looked at the numbers yet, but its unlikely that manufactoring will get near 100% anytime soon, meaning that this change will certainly INCREASE slightly module materials, and significantly increase bot materials, until the higher factory and crunched CT's become available.

At what Factory % does the new materials equal the old? 80%, 90%, 95%?

Also, refining now approaches 100% too, meaning there is a hard number for the raw material to Commoditiy to Factory production effciency; That is, there is a number X, that represents the least amount of raw materials per commodity.

Taken in tandem, initial production after the patch will require considerable more material for both modules and bots, until advanced facilities are online; even then the alpha producer will end up spending more NIC on creating higher CT's to reduce commodities, but still can't overcome the refining rampup.

Re: Recalibration of mineral, bot and module costs

In my opinion there is a reason why you don't get T4 equipped HM for free to blast, but I agree that a price change in that order is not good for the game.

If we assume that ore price won't change (what I doubt due to fact that I predict you have more effort to mine than now) a lot of things will eb come much more expensive especially for those living on alpha without access to beta/gamma ore beside market.
I assume that it will cost me after patch ~3 times the amount of ore to produce a HM on alpha+ outpost compared to now. Titanium eg is much less needed but will cost roughly 5 times the amount it will cost now.

Bot the worst thing is that even  assault bot will be most likely raise above 1.5M NIC to produce on alpha. Don't think that helps the game.

Re: Recalibration of mineral, bot and module costs

If there was any doubt about my procedure I've assumed quite generous facility/extension/relation levels, and this is based on serious number crunching, not guess-working. I'm not keen on sharing the number publicly on the forums, but if Alf wants I can send a pm. All I can say if you think the current rebalancing will result in 'roughly' the same prices you will have a shock when you see what happens.

Anyhow, this was indeed not meant as a complaint, more as a 'are you really aware what this means?'. If you do know the real number and that's the way it's intended, fine.

Re: Recalibration of mineral, bot and module costs

Lucius Marcellus wrote:

If there was any doubt about my procedure I've assumed quite generous facility/extension/relation levels, and this is based on serious number crunching, not guess-working. I'm not keen on sharing the number publicly on the forums, but if Alf wants I can send a pm. All I can say if you think the current rebalancing will result in 'roughly' the same prices you will have a shock when you see what happens.

Anyhow, this was indeed not meant as a complaint, more as a 'are you really aware what this means?'. If you do know the real number and that's the way it's intended, fine.

My guess is you and Arga are probably the 2 top producers left in game.  I would very much like to know your magic number, PM me too if you don't want to post it wink

Population graphs

<GM Synapse> please don't abuse our fresh players before blowing them up. And for god sakes, don't do that after it!

Re: Recalibration of mineral, bot and module costs

The component ammounts are not final yet  , however lowering those numbers will make points less and less noticable because of rounding. I would say we increase the yield further in all materials, and lowering their volume. Also keep in mind, with higher bot prices the insurance will return more as well.
Insurance will be reworked for this.

"Rock is OP. Paper is okay." - Scissors

Re: Recalibration of mineral, bot and module costs

DEV Alf wrote:

The component ammounts are not final yet  , however lowering those numbers will make points less and less noticable because of rounding. I would say we increase the yield further in all materials, and lowering their volume. Also keep in mind, with higher bot prices the insurance will return more as well.
Insurance will be reworked for this.


That will be interesting.  Since with the prices lower now and production less time intensive than it will be (lol) I guess stock piling things now for insurance fraud later could be a massive boon to any corp/individual. 

example:
1. stockpile scarabs now, maybe even just buying them on the market at 22 million
2. insurance payout triples to 54 million
3. blow them up insured when it goes live
4. profit limited only by your current in game resources (vast for the big corps) that you are willing to sacrifice later.

Population graphs

<GM Synapse> please don't abuse our fresh players before blowing them up. And for god sakes, don't do that after it!

10 (edited by Goffer 2012-05-14 18:48:44)

Re: Recalibration of mineral, bot and module costs

I would strongly suggest you to rethink prices and if you came to the conclusion that bots need to cost that much, please think about raising prices 2-3 smaller steps. For now, you will see drastic changes on bot market.

Edit: if you wish, I can prepare open office spreadsheet for Devs to show my numbers on changes for commodities.

Re: Recalibration of mineral, bot and module costs

Crepitus  I was totally typing that, stopped and went screw this throwing 30 kain lines in.

Steam achievement Unlocked:  Being a Badass
http://www.perp-kill.net/kill/239407
Dev Zoom: I think its time to confess, Ville is my alt
Dev Zoom: Ville can be sometimes so sane it's scary.

Re: Recalibration of mineral, bot and module costs

If you plan on doing that, let me know, so I can leave the corp before they wipe everyone's wallets.

Re: Recalibration of mineral, bot and module costs

Be... very... careful... with... insurance...

Re: Recalibration of mineral, bot and module costs

Reballancing material requirements is fine. TBH the current costs barely make any sense anyway (mechs are too cheap, assaults are too cheap, etc)

Looking forward to new players and new conflicts.

Re: Recalibration of mineral, bot and module costs

atm the bot is the least expensive. fiiting is way more expensive as the bot itself.
with this at hand i think its totaly fine that the prices for bots to increase if and ONLY IF the equipment prices will drop to a point that this will make it up to it.

then as said it wil be better with insurance this will be better for the owner. better for the owner/prey not so good for the pvp-looter. cause their reward will be lesser.

but overall if the ballance is kept then i see not a problem if a kain will cost 2 or 3 times as much when fitted the overall cost will still be around the same.

as long as this is roughly true before and after
bot+sum(fitting)=same

Re: Recalibration of mineral, bot and module costs

Zortarg Calltar wrote:

atm the bot is the least expensive. fiiting is way more expensive as the bot itself.
with this at hand i think its totaly fine that the prices for bots to increase if and ONLY IF the equipment prices will drop to a point that this will make it up to it.

then as said it wil be better with insurance this will be better for the owner. better for the owner/prey not so good for the pvp-looter. cause their reward will be lesser.

but overall if the ballance is kept then i see not a problem if a kain will cost 2 or 3 times as much when fitted the overall cost will still be around the same.

as long as this is roughly true before and after
bot+sum(fitting)=same


This may hold true with T1 fits, but the 'cost' of Tiered modules will not go down to balance out.

That is, if your kain costs you 40M NIC to T4 fit now, 2M in bot, 38M in modules, it will not be 4m in bot and 36M in modules to balance to 40M NIC again.

This may hold true for communist producers, but if you're actually buying items on the market, don't expect module prices to drop. Cost of Epi and Norgalis is what drives those explicitly, and the rarity of t4 weapons kernel research.