Re: It's safe in alpha Islands!!

Agreed with Ville -  And because of that - I would be inclined to keep any mechanics to allow said griefing, regardless of the penalty for said griefer, out of the game for the time being.   

Let this game mature more and draw in more players, before we start putting an "edge" to alpha.

Re: It's safe in alpha Islands!!

Also, I get the impression that because of PBS devs havn't been able to fix the roaming spawns; and spawns in general. I was one of the first to admit that there needs to be a small amount of risk when undocking in alpha, and I thought the roams were just about balanced; even the Observer's were OK, they just needed to be a little slower.

However, and I think I said this already, Perp needs a entire revamp of the faction system before penalties would even be suitable for alpha ganks.

And, Eve is a terrible example. Jita may be a central trading hub, but its just a single location in a very big world. If Perp had 100 alpha Islands, then enabling PVP ganking would be different, since the small subset of players looking for that type of play would be very spread out....

And that's sort of the reciepe overall, diluted-griefing is workable, but if it's too concentrated it's going to eat through the beaker.

Re: It's safe in alpha Islands!!

i really think yall are reading in to this to much....

Greifers wanting to play?

Could be much simpler in the fact of if i am "LIVING" in A "Persistent sandbox universe"

Theme parks can set "SAFE ZONES" Trail account areas are "SAFE ZONES" a persistent world has lawful areas and unlawful like in any civilization or culture.

If i run around alpha and have the ability to fire on someone and a NPC police shows up and pwns me its much more sureal than having giant red letters say "NOT ALLOWED"

Now i am not saying you should be able to grief by any means i am simply stating from a perception and feeling i get form the game.

That kind of play is what entices me. Its Dry to just make people IMMUNE however new players shouldn't be able to just be wtf pwned at spawn either.

TL:DR The game should evolve/grow in to allowing for some form  of play on alpha other than perm immunity being it is a "Persistent sandbox universe" by no means do i mean unpenalized ganking simply a proper system in place rather than "LAWL IMMUNE"

Undefeated 2013
"Even alone you probably are one of the best" - Khader Khan
"Lemon the 1 man army .... also know as: THE TERMINATOR!" - Obi Wan
"There are people who are just better then you at doing many things at one time, some are far better then myself, far better." -Merkle

29 (edited by Nemo 2012-05-01 15:48:33)

Re: It's safe in alpha Islands!!

I understand your point of view entirely, but it all boils down to what the game can support.  It is just as "unrealistic" to allow the same "criminals" to commit acts of mayhem time and time again before a "realistic" society inflicts permanent outlawry or terminates the criminal.

I don't think any of the "hardcore" players would agree that permadeath for being a "three time loser", or the equivalent, would be a good idea.  That would be "hardcore", though.

If the penalties for such things would at least far outweigh the economic benefits, that would lessen the acts by those that can do maths.

It wouldn't limit the antisocial griefers, though.  The "I live on the tears of others" nonsense attitude, in other words, the "I want to ruin your enjoyment of the game" attitude, is an out-of-game, player-rather-than-character, affliction.  It requires out-of-game, mechanical solutions, not simply "find a bigger gang to hunt him down".

These games are games-- they are intended to be entertainment, in return for one's entertainment time and money.  If one's entertainment is founded upon ruining others' entertainment, then that is an inherent negative that the person brings to the game.

If one wishes to get into combat with other players, there are ample opportunities for one to do that.  Granted, they may know that the possibility exists and be better equipped to deal with it.  That seems fair to me.

If one just wants to take a couple of hours and play the game, there are opportunities to do that, too.  It would be nice to keep it that way.

Now: a common response from the other "sandbox" game usually devolves into name-calling, "WoW is that way", and a lot of other immature nonsense   The logical end of that would be a tiny, niche game with griefers having no one but each other to grief.  If that is what we wish this game to become, then it can be made so.

Alternatively, eliminate safety altogether; make the game full-bore PvP from the get-go, advertise it as such, and see how many players you get to sign up.  My guess: not many.  In an EP-accumulation game, the experienced players could annihilate anyone new so easily that new folk would have only two choices-- join a bigger gang, or leave.

I have been playing these things longer than some of the players here have been alive.  I have also been involved with game design.  The Devs and marketing simply have to decide what the demographics of their audience is to be.  Wide appeal means you cannot simply let people go hog-wild with whatever negative, self-serving play they desire.  Niche games, on the other hand, can be constructed towards anything at all.

If players are to be allowed to "do whatever they please", then they must also be willing to bear up with the consequences for doing so.  In anything simulating a "real world", the consequences would be draconian.

Re: It's safe in alpha Islands!!

Opinions will differ from player to player in regards to total safe areas. What the other famous space sandbox game has is not entirely a good or bad system, but obviously it has it's own drawbacks.

My point is that Perp could gain a great advantage in that safety aspect, giving sandbox gamers a choice they really never had before. Could this attract loads of 'carebears'? Yes, but this can only be a good thing as items will become cheaply available due to competition. Benefiting all type of players which could even bring more combat types.

RIP PERPETUUM

31 (edited by Sundial 2012-05-01 18:29:29)

Re: It's safe in alpha Islands!!

Celebro wrote:

Opinions will differ from player to player in regards to total safe areas. What the other famous space sandbox game has is not entirely a good or bad system, but obviously it has it's own drawbacks.

My point is that Perp could gain a great advantage in that safety aspect, giving sandbox gamers a choice they really never had before. Could this attract loads of 'carebears'? Yes, but this can only be a good thing as items will become cheaply available due to competition. Benefiting all type of players which could even bring more combat types.

Yes Celebro you are right, there are probably much bigger problems to worry about at the moment such as:

1. Inability of the game to keep hardcore players who burn through all content and due to low population have little choice in beta organizations / conflicts or market PvP. Making NIC can only take you so far in this kind of game, you need a goal / element of conflict to continue playing. Without that what is the point of playing a sandbox game? Politics are as simple as "I am with corp A so I hate corp B". There are only a few letters at war...
2. Inability of the game to keep casual players due to there not being anything to do in a short amount of time and mechanics like field containers that essentially say "FU" to casuals. No high end PvE content on alpha.
3. General lack of bots / modules. I am tired of fitting the same bot over and over and over with the same modules and same generic setups. The way extensions scale with EP makes unbonused weapon modules not viable on any bot than one with a bonus making fitting even more boring. My choices are limited to simply the tier of weapon and short range/long range and prototypes. When is the last time we got a new module / bot? When is the last time the current meta got shook up with balance changes (good or bad). Also seems that for most fits I just spam some generic modules over and over again anyway. There is no diversity / room for personal preference. Some bots have a tiny number of slots and no room for customization and no viable role (light DPS bots).
4. The general setup of extensions: I would argue this game is far more EP intensive than EVE to max out your skills for a certain bot type widening the gap between old and new players. This is because the way extensions are setup, you train one robotics extension for multiple factions you dont really need so naturally they make it more expensive. But you really only need it for 1 bot you are training your other skills for.... It takes new players a much larger amount of time to become proficient with ANY bot.
5. Solo PvP pretty much requires multiple accounts. PvP flag mechanics make escape very difficult. Simply defending yourself against tackle guarantees your death. Bots like the Troiar mk2 are impossible for a solo player to deal with.

Yes I am a bittervet and I understand the devs are hard at work on gamma but lets take a look at the state of the game... NPCs have been broken for months (Including observers, how is my corp supposed to get its research finished before gamma?). There are really only a couple of corps fighting with active PvP. Beta overall is nearly empty. We havn't got any new toys / balancing to play with in a very very long time. I can't justify paying for a sub with the game in its current state and that is the harsh truth. Gamma will help with endgame content, but players at all levels simply need more content / depth.

No I am not quiting, no you cannot have my stuff but I feel like this needed to be condensed and discussed.

Sorry for derailing your topic Celebro tongue

EDIT: Yes I know also, this game is not EVE nor will it ever be. We can't apply some of the concepts in EVE here. At the same time, we need to be looking for new ways to make player choice matter / be meaningful and promote all different styles of play. This doesn't necessarily mean making alpha opened up to ganking / griefing.

Looking forward to new players and new conflicts.

Re: It's safe in alpha Islands!!

Sundial wrote:
Celebro wrote:

Opinions will differ from player to player in regards to total safe areas. What the other famous space sandbox game has is not entirely a good or bad system, but obviously it has it's own drawbacks.

My point is that Perp could gain a great advantage in that safety aspect, giving sandbox gamers a choice they really never had before. Could this attract loads of 'carebears'? Yes, but this can only be a good thing as items will become cheaply available due to competition. Benefiting all type of players which could even bring more combat types.

Yes Celebro you are right, there are probably much bigger problems to worry about at the moment such as:

1. Inability of the game to keep hardcore players who burn through all content and due to low population have little choice in beta organizations / conflicts or market PvP. Making NIC can only take you so far in this kind of game, you need a goal / element of conflict to continue playing. Without that what is the point of playing a sandbox game? Politics are as simple as "I am with corp A so I hate corp B". There are only a few letters at war...
2. Inability of the game to keep casual players due to there not being anything to do in a short amount of time and mechanics like field containers that essentially say "FU" to casuals. No high end PvE content on alpha.
3. General lack of bots / modules. I am tired of fitting the same bot over and over and over with the same modules and same generic setups. The way extensions scale with EP makes unbonused weapon modules not viable on any bot than one with a bonus making fitting even more boring. My choices are limited to simply the tier of weapon and short range/long range and prototypes. When is the last time we got a new module / bot? When is the last time the current meta got shook up with balance changes (good or bad). Also seems that for most fits I just spam some generic modules over and over again anyway. There is no diversity / room for personal preference. Some bots have a tiny number of slots and no room for customization and no viable role (light DPS bots).
4. The general setup of extensions: I would argue this game is far more EP intensive than EVE to max out your skills for a certain bot type widening the gap between old and new players. This is because the way extensions are setup, you train one robotics extension for multiple factions you dont really need so naturally they make it more expensive. But you really only need it for 1 bot you are training your other skills for.... It takes new players a much larger amount of time to become proficient with ANY bot.
5. Solo PvP pretty much requires multiple accounts. PvP flag mechanics make escape very difficult. Simply defending yourself against tackle guarantees your death. Bots like the Troiar mk2 are impossible for a solo player to deal with.

Yes I am a bittervet and I understand the devs are hard at work on gamma but lets take a look at the state of the game... NPCs have been broken for months (Including observers, how is my corp supposed to get its research finished before gamma?). There are really only a couple of corps fighting with active PvP. Beta overall is nearly empty. We havn't got any new toys / balancing to play with in a very very long time. I can't justify paying for a sub with the game in its current state and that is the harsh truth. Gamma will help with endgame content, but players at all levels simply need more content / depth.

No I am not quiting, no you cannot have my stuff but I feel like this needed to be condensed and discussed.

Sorry for derailing your topic Celebro tongue

EDIT: Yes I know also, this game is not EVE nor will it ever be. We can't apply some of the concepts in EVE here. At the same time, we need to be looking for new ways to make player choice matter / be meaningful and promote all different styles of play.

tl;dr

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http://www.perp-kill.net/kill/239407
Dev Zoom: I think its time to confess, Ville is my alt
Dev Zoom: Ville can be sometimes so sane it's scary.

33 (edited by Sundial 2012-05-01 18:38:42)

Re: It's safe in alpha Islands!!

You know things are bad when the list of problems is tl;dr lol

TLDR VERSION:

We need more meaningful player choices. That does not necessarily mean griefing / ganking mechanics.

Looking forward to new players and new conflicts.

Re: It's safe in alpha Islands!!

My Iphone suggested that when I cropped your post btw.

Steam achievement Unlocked:  Being a Badass
http://www.perp-kill.net/kill/239407
Dev Zoom: I think its time to confess, Ville is my alt
Dev Zoom: Ville can be sometimes so sane it's scary.

Re: It's safe in alpha Islands!!

Sundial wrote:

TLDR VERSION:

We need more meaningful player choices. That does not necessarily mean griefing / ganking mechanics.

This ^

John 3:16 - Timothy 2:23

Re: It's safe in alpha Islands!!

Players don't like meaningful choices, unless they don't mean anything.

If you instituted alpha combat, but the penalty was permanent expulsion from alpha on the first offense, that would be meaningful; anything less is just inconvenient.

Grem, maybe you mean; "We need more inconvenient choices".

37 (edited by Sundial 2012-05-01 19:40:42)

Re: It's safe in alpha Islands!!

Arga wrote:

Players don't like meaningful choices, unless they don't mean anything.

If you instituted alpha combat, but the penalty was permanent expulsion from alpha on the first offense, that would be meaningful; anything less is just inconvenient.

Grem, maybe you mean; "We need more inconvenient choices".

In that case they should be able to band together, come back and destroy where they were banished.

A system based on inconvenience as a deterant still results in meaningful choices (Outlaws pick their crime carefully instead of running around killing everything in sight). When you go to jail in real life, it is inconvenient. You are not forever banished from society depending on your crime. You only are for the highest offenses (murder, ***) and only when you are caught and convicted.

Say I decide to steal someones car IRL and go to jail, is that not a meaningful choice even though I don't go to jail forever?

Looking forward to new players and new conflicts.

38 (edited by Gremrod 2012-05-01 20:03:06)

Re: It's safe in alpha Islands!!

Arga wrote:

Players don't like meaningful choices, unless they don't mean anything.

If you instituted alpha combat, but the penalty was permanent expulsion from alpha on the first offense, that would be meaningful; anything less is just inconvenient.

Grem, maybe you mean; "We need more inconvenient choices".

No I don't mean: "We need more inconvenient choices".

We need more player choices. Griefing and ganking are not the only choices we or I am talking about.....

Example of one would be paint jobs on mechs.

John 3:16 - Timothy 2:23

Re: It's safe in alpha Islands!!

Where in all this, is the gankee's meaningful decision? They only get one, if they don't want to participate in combat PVP, to not play. And that's fine if that's where the game is headed. But you can't dress that change up in anything other than providing more PVP for players that want it, and less freedom of choice for those that don't.

I'm with nemo on this, if they want the game environment to be more hardcore and eve like, then change it. The population will sort itself out.

Re: It's safe in alpha Islands!!

Arga wrote:

Where in all this, is the gankee's meaningful decision? They only get one, if they don't want to participate in combat PVP, to not play. And that's fine if that's where the game is headed. But you can't dress that change up in anything other than providing more PVP for players that want it, and less freedom of choice for those that don't.

I'm with nemo on this, if they want the game environment to be more hardcore and eve like, then change it. The population will sort itself out.

Yeah I have already been convinced that we don't need to have alpha - ganks etc.

John 3:16 - Timothy 2:23

Re: It's safe in alpha Islands!!

Sundial wrote:

Yes Celebro you are right, there are probably much bigger problems to worry about at the moment such as:

1. Inability of the game to keep hardcore players who burn through all content and due to low population have little choice in beta organizations / conflicts or market PvP. Making NIC can only take you so far in this kind of game, you need a goal / element of conflict to continue playing. Without that what is the point of playing a sandbox game? Politics are as simple as "I am with corp A so I hate corp B". There are only a few letters at war...

.

'Hardcore' players who burn through content like match sticks is hard to retain in any game for that matter. As for the rest of your post I mostly agree.

RIP PERPETUUM