You are not logged in. Please login or register.
I am kind of with you on this Lucius.
I am with Lucius on this too, game has lost the chance for real trade between gamma and alpha, and a true alpha market hub, I find the difference is too much.
Since they are doing a remix to industry.
Last time I checked t1 small miner and t1 medium miner were the same except for fitting requirements.
Can medium miner modules have some type of bonus over smalls?
Like, a better range at least.
Change of that kind (industry 2.0) that detrimentally affect older account to reduce the gap between them and new accounts, have 2 bad effects:
-the vets feel scammed. They bought an extension level with a described effect, often very expensive, but now the described effect doesnt apply anymore. Saying "but your an industrial anyway, so no need for refund" totally exclude the fact that this game permit you to cross train whatever you want. The 30k EP spent in expert mass prod efficiency, that will give you at best 0,5% less material need for prod, would be very more useful to make a basinc prototyper or RE toon. Dont forget we are coming to the 800k EP mark for the oldest accounts, and this amount is the limit were cross training is better cause speccing is almost at max....
-player wont trust anymore the "invariability" of said extension described effects. Why would i trust that my adv ballistic will forever add me 3% more dmg? This imo weakens the confidence players have in their build and therefor in the game continuity, reducing dedication of said players. And dedication is the beating heart of a sandbox.
All in all the signals i receive from those changes are:
-you paid from the beginning one or multiple accounts (seniority aspect), knowing very well that this would give you an advantage over newer players, more than actual online time (more than in fixed skillcap games or lvl character style games), but now we will reduce this advantage to something marginal because we feel like its frightening the new players. New players retention come with fun, not with less gap between them and vets. WoW didnt improved players retention by letting lvl 30 characters beat lv 50 (its a complete different gameplay i know, its just for the rethoric)
-game rules are subject to changes, like the game would be in beta. You take decisions about your character(s) that could be very well discarded by gamedesign changes. Without a way to change your decisions afterward.
Now for the ridiculous metaphor:
"Dont be sad you bought a ferrari FF 360k dollars man, because of the new engine limitation laws. You still go 5 kmph faster than a fiat wagon, and i know how you like speed!"
+1
100% accurate (soon to be gimped)
Since they are doing a remix to industry.
Last time I checked t1 small miner and t1 medium miner were the same except for fitting requirements.
Can medium miner modules have some type of bonus over smalls?
Like, a better range at least.
Cycle time t1 small miner: 15.5 sec
Cycle time t1 med miner: 12.0 sec
Change of that kind (industry 2.0) that detrimentally affect older account to reduce the gap between them and new accounts, have 2 bad effects:
-the vets feel scammed. They bought an extension level with a described effect, often very expensive, but now the described effect doesnt apply anymore. Saying "but your an industrial anyway, so no need for refund" totally exclude the fact that this game permit you to cross train whatever you want. The 30k EP spent in expert mass prod efficiency, that will give you at best 0,5% less material need for prod, would be very more useful to make a basinc prototyper or RE toon. Dont forget we are coming to the 800k EP mark for the oldest accounts, and this amount is the limit were cross training is better cause speccing is almost at max.... -player wont trust anymore the "invariability" of said extension described effects. Why would i trust that my adv ballistic will forever add me 3% more dmg? This imo weakens the confidence players have in their build and therefor in the game continuity, reducing dedication of said players. And dedication is the beating heart of a sandbox.
All in all the signals i receive from those changes are:
-you paid from the beginning one or multiple accounts (seniority aspect), knowing very well that this would give you an advantage over newer players, more than actual online time (more than in fixed skillcap games or lvl character style games), but now we will reduce this advantage to something marginal because we feel like its frightening the new players. New players retention come with fun, not with less gap between them and vets. WoW didnt improved players retention by letting lvl 30 characters beat lv 50 (its a complete different gameplay i know, its just for the rethoric)
-game rules are subject to changes, like the game would be in beta. You take decisions about your character(s) that could be very well discarded by gamedesign changes. Without a way to change your decisions afterward.
Thank you Cobalt for putting my thoughts on to the forums. (I feel a troll breathing down my neck) Perhaps it is time to check in to the re-roll system again, once a year will not cause FOTM, People would likely stay speced to what they are just trim fat. It would be hard to learn a new style for those of us that only use one faction and a indy alt.
yeah, t1 med miner is 29% fastern the t1 small, and even 4% faster then t4 small.
i guess under the new system, mining with a t4 fit riveler will need a locktime-nexus + 2x RSA support.
PS: i had a more detailed post here but accidentally hit the "back" button on my mouse 
yeah, t1 med miner is 29% fastern the t1 small, and even 4% faster then t4 small.
i guess under the new system, mining with a t4 fit riveler will need a locktime-nexus + 2x RSA support.
PS: i had a more detailed post here but accidentally hit the "back" button on my mouse
Ah, right. I still think medium miners should have a bit more range.
So, my only real concern so far with this change is the redistribution of materials; and not the distribution, but the trading.
If you look at the market changes over the last 6 months for raw materials, the trend has been decreasing number of buy/sell orders, but increase in the quantities.
In general, the capacity for production and mining have increased dramatically. Its fairly common now to see 20,30, and even 40M unit buy orders for raw materials.
The Scarab is great for tactical hauling, and the MK II will also be nice, but even 1kU capacity is insufficent to support the volume of materials that will need to be moved to make trading profitable.
I spent many weeks of game time trying to make NIC in the transportation game, and other then the golden circle, it never was. So don't get me wrong, I WANT to see Hauling as a viable profession, and redistributing raw material opens the door for that to happen.
But your not giving us the correct tools to do it.
Producers simply will not pay the prices for raw materials that transporters will have to charge to make it profitable since they have the option of producing at the local facility as easily as a central one; then transporting the finished goods themselves. Or, for corporations needing to produce, they'll buy the ore locally and transport it themselves, or again, produce what they need locally.
This change will be a boon to miners. There will be buy orders for their ore locally and remotely. Since local and remote producers will likely be competing for the same resource, the price will go up, but the delta between local can remote won't be enough to cover the time the miner would need to move it remotely; Miners will almost always sell locally, since their time hauling means less time mining.
To make the transport profession viable, they'll need large payloads
Making a strategic hauler or reducing the volume of raw material will provide those payloads.
Unless you've been holding out on us, and have the mechanics/graphics in place for a huge hauler, the best way to make solve this, is simply to reduce the volume of raw materials.
Heck. Make raw ore volume reduction an extension even, or a module, or something.
Players WILL spend hours hauling, but they'll need to make a profit doing it.
They could also reduce volume ratio between raws and commodities presently at only a 75% compression is not so good.
yeah, t1 med miner is 29% fastern the t1 small, and even 4% faster then t4 small.
i guess under the new system, mining with a t4 fit riveler will need a locktime-nexus + 2x RSA support.
PS: i had a more detailed post here but accidentally hit the "back" button on my mouse
Wait.. will this be mining, or lock and unlock tedious stuff every 20 seconds? I just hope not.
...simply to reduce the volume of raw materials.
If Arga's brilliant post was too long to read for the DEV, I did a TL;DR.
Seriously though, I really agree, the things that are traded the most have insanely large volumes, making it virtually impossible to profit from inter-station trading and hauling. I'd also dare say that the ridiculous ore/commodity volumes is one of the main reasons why so few are currently willing to produce at beta. It has little to do with efficiency, and much more to with the logistical nightmare it entails. So, if you want people to produce more beta/gamma (clearly seems what DEV's want), then we desperately need better ways of transporting ores, be that through significant reduction in volumes, or an uber-scarab with 5k+ cargo. 720U is loads when you're transporting bots/mods, but for ores it's absolutely nothing.
So much talk about wanting loads of trading, but still in terms of logistics of ores/commodities we live in the stone age?
Arga wrote:...simply to reduce the volume of raw materials.
If Arga's brilliant post was too long to read for the DEV, I did a TL;DR.
Seriously though, I really agree, the things that are traded the most have insanely large volumes, making it virtually impossible to profit from inter-station trading and hauling. I'd also dare say that the ridiculous ore/commodity volumes is one of the main reasons why so few are currently willing to produce at beta. It has little to do with efficiency, and much more to with the logistical nightmare it entails. So, if you want people to produce more beta/gamma (clearly seems what DEV's want), then we desperately need better ways of transporting ores, be that through significant reduction in volumes, or an uber-scarab with 5k+ cargo. 720U is loads when you're transporting bots/mods, but for ores it's absolutely nothing.
So much talk about wanting loads of trading, but still in terms of logistics of ores/commodities we live in the stone age?
I like this idea but wouldn't ore prices go way down with this, or is the mining the limiting factor on prices?
Will they have to nerf mining yields?
a reduction in mining yield and the same reduction in refining requirement for the commodities would work the same way as reducing the volume (not the yield[numbers]) of the ore.
the goal is simple that you have to haul 10% of the ore as it is now. then it might be reasonanble to transport ore form gamma to alpha or from alpha to gamma.
my first thought was a new hauler with 10x the capacity of the scarab, but honestly for transporting equip or bots thats fine. i have to agree with lucius here. need a better way to transport ore and commodites. if this is with a new bot, lighter or reduced ore, or with some compression feature is not importent. important is that you will not need a train of 20 scarabs just to feed your weekly need of a single corporation.
I like this idea but wouldn't ore prices go way down with this, or is the mining the limiting factor on prices?
Will they have to nerf mining yields?
The volume of ore doesn't effect how fast it's mined. That is controlled by the 'base' units per cycle, for instance Titan is 750 but liquizt is only 250 units per cycle.
Ore prices are dictated (mostly) by the time it takes to get it out of the ground. If you were to increase the base units, that would drive the price down (or it should), but decreasing volume only effects carrying capacity.
While hauling ore off the field would be faster, and will have a small downward pressure on ore prices.
The new partitioning of ore by island will have more of an upward price pressure on ore, as well as the additional effort to find the roaming ore. Any downward pressure from reduced volume, would acutally be a good thing to help offset the much stronger upward pricing pressures.
zoom wrote in blog that you will need less stuff to build equip and a bit more for robots.
that means same volume of minerals will be more worth in production, especially in higher tier production.
Celebro wrote:I like this idea but wouldn't ore prices go way down with this, or is the mining the limiting factor on prices?
Will they have to nerf mining yields?
The volume of ore doesn't effect how fast it's mined. That is controlled by the 'base' units per cycle, for instance Titan is 750 but liquizt is only 250 units per cycle.
Ore prices are dictated (mostly) by the time it takes to get it out of the ground. If you were to increase the base units, that would drive the price down (or it should), but decreasing volume only effects carrying capacity.
While hauling ore off the field would be faster, and will have a small downward pressure on ore prices.
The new partitioning of ore by island will have more of an upward price pressure on ore, as well as the additional effort to find the roaming ore. Any downward pressure from reduced volume, would acutally be a good thing to help offset the much stronger upward pricing pressures.
Afk hauler mining and single accounts would be much faster, but I get the picture 
Reducing the volume of commodities would be good solution here as it's easy to do and has no side effects outside station to station hauling.
zoom wrote in blog that you will need less stuff to build equip and a bit more for robots.
that means same volume of minerals will be more worth in production, especially in higher tier production.
And of course, the quantity of materials needed to build robots is currently much more significant then modules now, increasing those volumes will simply increase the quantity of materials that would need to be moved.
Assuming the partitioning extends to bots too.
If I wanted to build Seth's at Tellesis, they'll likely need commodities requiring ores not found on a blue Island. I could try to build them on a yellow Island, but the amount of non-specific commdities like titan would mean alot of transportation of those goods to another island. Or require me to purchase them locally, and my relation with Yellow isn't as good, so refining there wouldn't be a good idea. However, in the end, if buying yellow ore or commodities at Tellesis didn't pencil out, I would haul my own; or simply not produce Seths at all.
So, in no way am I saying that the market would crash if ore volume wasn't reduced. Simply that 'trade' wouldn't be encouraged without it.
Which generally leads to the question, won't module/bot trade be encouraged then?
Well.. no, not unless travel distance were increased dramatically.
While a customer for a HCL laser may take a buying opportunity at Tellesis for the module at a slight premium, they are more likely to drive to Asientec if the price is significantly lower. While haulers can certainly fit enough modules and bots in their cargo to make the trip worthwhile, demand for finished goods is much lower and price sensitve customers can (because the cargo volume IS low) can make the trip themselves.
Even though my concern about the fragmentation hasn't been answered yet (and I think all-roaming spawns will just be on gamma, as well as resource spawning on impassable terrain), I finally found the time to really get my reply to the blog done: http://h9.abload.de/img/perpetuumyayh7lub.png
Hey, don't blame me if you keep finding hidden messages in fragmented deposits after Industry 2.0 
Even though my concern about the fragmentation hasn't been answered yet (and I think all-roaming spawns will just be on gamma, as well as resource spawning on impassable terrain), I finally found the time to really get my reply to the blog done: http://h9.abload.de/img/perpetuumyayh7lub.png
Hey, don't blame me if you keep finding hidden messages in fragmented deposits after Industry 2.0
lol those are awesome
Heck. Make raw ore volume reduction an extension even, or a module, or something.
I like the idea of a compression module which works for raw materials only. If this new module is a head slot and "fit one module only" type AND accompanied by an expensive extension (lvl 9) that improves effectiveness of the module then hauling would become a profession because players would have to choose to invest EP in it.
A maxed extension and T4 module could have a compression ratio of (say) 0.2 meaning a scarab mkII could haul 4500U. Extension lvl 5 and a T1 module a ratio of (say) 0.8 meaning a scarab mkII could haul 1125U. Heck, if its a module you could elect to fit one to your Riveler instead of a tuner and go Ninja mine on someone elses island for a mineral you don't have.
... but never mind the details the point is if hauling is to become a profession the players need to choose to do it and an extension or two is the way to make it a choice.
I like the compression idea too, I'd of course prefer if a factor of 0.1 could be reached (with full extension and t4p), but specifics!
i guess under the new system, mining with a t4 fit riveler will need a locktime-nexus + 2x RSA support.
None of the actual numbers have been given though, and so we can't make any kind of conclusions on this topic.
Annihilator wrote:i guess under the new system, mining with a t4 fit riveler will need a locktime-nexus + 2x RSA support.
None of the actual numbers have been given though, and so we can't make any kind of conclusions on this topic.
Current system:
Ground tile contains max 255 cycles on beta, ~max 125 cycles on alpha
A T4+ fitted Riv mk2 maxed extensions will collect ~2800 titan ore per cycle @ ~4s cycletime
A T1 fitted Argano basic extension will collect ~875 titan ore per cycle. @ ~14,75 cycletime
the vet can collect 350k titan ore from a single tile on alpha in 100 seconds (all miners focused)
the noob can collect 110k titan ore from a single tile on alpha in 614 seconds (all three miners focused)
New system:
estimating that the devs keep the mineral density on alpha around what it is for a newer player:
- the vet still collects 2800 titan ore per cycle, but the ground tile only has 110k fixed in it
which means he sucks the tile dry in ~30 seconds.
- for new miner nothing changed.
i agree, without a bit more information about which volume the minerals per tile will be placed we cannot tell for sure. Im just happy that my miner is primary fit for harvesting, and there i already need good lock-times...
Powered by PunBB, supported by Informer Technologies, Inc.
Currently installed 3 official extensions. Copyright © 2003–2009 PunBB.
Generated in 0.084 seconds (91% PHP - 9% DB) with 27 queries
Copyright © Avatar Creations
